Chris Strong

Thanks for everyone's pointers. I've not yet had a chance to try it out. I hope my other three boards show up. I'm afraid he thinks I'm done and I am off of the list. I bought one for myself, two for friends, and two spares.

Two of my five arrived today. So where would I look for instructions or documentation on the board? Thanks.

The Corvus should be very fast. People cried "it uses the joystick ports", but those ports run right out of the bus lines of the 6520, just like the PBI bus. I suspect one major factor is the speed of the hard drive on the Corvus. I know when I test the RPM on my "black box" with an old Atari 810 test utility, it returns 3600 just like it should. The Happy drive fools it because of the buffer and it returns around 800 AFAIK. But I've not really played with it since the 1990s.

I have some BASIC programs that do it, but I don't have sio2pc set up either. I ran that years ago, but I don't remember what I found out. I need to find time to get my Corvus running.

I'm dealing with a main job, two startup companies, and a six-month-old myself, so my batteries are basically drained all of the time.

Thanks for the clairification, good to know. One reason I never tried to kickstart mine is the lack of spare gate array chips. I know there is some documentation on those...I wonder if there is enough to replicate them using an FPGA? I've never looked into it. I do wonder how long the gate array chips on our prototypes will survive. I don't know about everyone else, but the lids on mine are just taped-on like a MOSIS chip, and those parts generally have a limited lifespan because of contamination.

So this came up when I discussed my 8-bit Gremins prototype. It was in a brown plastic shell, such as used for the bankswitching XE cartridges in the Tramiel era, but in brown plastic, prototype non-textured tooling, and made during the Warner era. Clearly Atari Corp had the Warner tooling modified for their cheap cartridges later on. When I posed the images of Gremlins, some people were more interested in the shell than the cartridge. I had said it was the same brown color as the XL trim, but I was wrong...the cartridge is more "milk chocolate" and the XL (or old 800 carts) are more of a bittersweet chocolate color. So here is another one I have. These are high-res photos of a standard XEGS cart, a prototype Final Legacy cart (which I assume is bankswitched) in the unusual case, and then a normal-cased Final Legacy for color comparison. Again, I made an agreement with the engineer who sold them to me to not reveal my source, so I've blurred his handwriting. But it just says "Final Legacy".

Now this RSZ cart. According to my notes, somewhere in this box is apparently a SALT 1 cart board from 1979, which is really neat, as I did not remember that I owned one. That's just the sort of thing I like. Anyway, this is a strange board; the PCB is unknown to me. I don't know if it is the SALT, it's bag was unlabeled.

An odd BASIC cart (not the cool one with the white ceramic ROMS, I don't know where that is right now). I wonder how this will work with the active high/low logic issue. But this is the way I got it.

Okay, I'm running a speedskating even this weekend and I probably won't be back to this until next week, so here is some quick cartridge porn. I found the box. Sorry they are a bit out of focus, I could reshoot them later when I have better light. I only got three hours of sleep yesterday (we were up late aligning timing cameras), so I can't reshoot them. Dorsett cart in high-rest:

This is exactly the sort of thing that I am most interested in with my collection (early 400/800 development, production testing, and field service gear). This is the neatest 800 I've ever seen. I have several of the early (1979) release models, the ones with the tin card edge connectors and the female keyboard socket on the motherboard, but none like this. I have one from Atari HCD engineering that was probably like this when it was made, (there is no silver date code molded into the case as it is not a production model, but most of the components are very old) but its motherboard had been replaced with one from 1981. I don't see the power board anywhere. Does it have the white SIO port?

Claus Buchholz! Now that is a name I know very well. I used to do your memory upgrades for friends when I was in high school (sorry, I guess that dates me as a bit younger). Did you do the 288K 800 or the 256K 800XL? Or both? I remember it back in the days when I used to glue the address logic chips onto the boards "dead bug"-style and wirewrapping it all up. Then Brad Koda started selling premade PCBs for some of them in my last couple months of high school and it was so much easier...and then the PC/AT craze got going and 41256's went up out of sight. And I was out of business. Anyway, I'll be happy to photograph it but it will take a couple days. I shot that photo in June of 2006, I just found the image recently. I've not seen that cart yet (I'm unpacking my Atari collections from years of storage), but I've found several containers with prototype carts and I saw that same SALT board right on top. so I'm sure the other one is with it. I got several odd carts about that time. BASIC on Signetics PROMs, some ROMS in white ceramic packages, etc. Several carts I don't know what they are; they appear to do nothing but I suspect are some early diagnostics. Dumping the ROMS will be a bit longer but I will get to it. I need to dump all of those EPROMS anyway.

Wow, that is probably the coolest Atari prototype I've seen, at least for my collection. But I will reply in that thread.

If you read the postings from Curt's site I referred to above, http://www.atarimuseum.com/computers/http://www.atarimuseum8BITS/XL/1450xld/1450xld.html, you will see that they mention having motherboards available for the January CES. Even if they did not have the newer 1450s available, they still had all the first generation 1400s/1450s from the previous fall.

You traded it to me for some 1090 boards and a couple other things. This is kinda sad, as it shows how well my memory is working. I thought you were the one who told me it did need the gate arrays (mine is missing most of the ICs) and therefore we were sure it was a Tong prototype! I've never tried to build mine up, it needs a lot of work. I've not seen it in four years, I only recently uncovered it but I've not unwrapped it yet (my life is wrapped up in antistatic bubblewrap). I don't doubt for a second that you've done more research into this than anyone in the Atari community, and I though I was basing that statement on your facts. My hunch is it's still somebody's rough prototype board; someone who did not want do do the whole thing in wirewrap so they laid out a proto board to work from. I need to get mine out and look at again and see why I came to that conclusion. I can't imagine it would ever go into a case (looking at a low-res photo from 2001 now); why would you want the PBI on one long side and the SIO on the other? So there are 7 40 pin DIP sockets on the PCB. CPU PIA ANTIC GTIA POKEY And what are the others, if not gate arrays? Freddie and a 2793 controller? Mine has no drive header but it looks like there might be a place for one. though that's a strange place to put a Freddie. I'm sure you've traced it out.... Again, I never inteded this to be a major debate, I just wanted to put to bed these rumors that every single 1400 or 1450 without a case label is out of a dumpster, that they did not have actual plastic cases, or that they were rescued from the New Mexico landfill. There are enough rumors about these machines without people making up more, if you know what I mean. One of the machines I have (without a label) Bruce Carso got straight from Atari....

While looking through some Atari photos today to post here, I found this photo of an unusual cartridge I found. The cartridge on the left is a normal Atari EPROM board. The one on the right is the odd one. Notice it is running the Dorsett Cartridge (Atari Educational System Master Cartridge, CXL4001) and is dated 17 April 1979. The board itself seems to be labeled "Candy". Clearly it is too small to fit in a normal Atari cartridge slot. I've not yet looked to see what address lines (if any) are missing, but it is an interesting variation. Has anyone seen an Atari 400 with such a cartridge slot?

Closeups of 1450 non-Tong and 1400XL.

I found some low-resolution ones. It was the best digital camera I had when I took them, 2 June 2001. I can redo the shots of the Tong 1450 and the 1400XL, I no longer have the non-Tong 1450. 1450XLD Tong versus 1400XL

I think the 6402 is clearly a Tong prototype. And Tong itself is still in a pre-production stage, at least mine is.

The point of my discussion was to dispel the myths that (A) the Atari 1400/1450s without labels all had been thrown away and were rescued from dumpsters and (B) that they were rescued by Atari employes rushing in ahead of the bulldozers to rescue them in New Mexico. No arguments with you there. I was tired and not thinking properly; I have no idea what was in that lot except for what I have read in the scans from the microfiche that were posted here long ago. It was ruined product that could not be resold, but not any prototypes that I know of. In any case, there were no ranks of Atari employees rushing in to save 14xx prototypes from the bulldozers. It was Browning-Ferris industries just dumping manufacturing waste. Had it been coffeemakers, nobody would know or care about it today. Are you sure that this is because the El Paso plant was closed? Do you remember where you heard that? I'd like to look over information on the closing of that plant, I did not think it happened until later. The documentation I referenced talked about the 1450XLD Tong machines being manufactured there on 7 Feb 1984, so unless they were planning to re-open the plant, I don't think it had been totally shut down in September 1983. Oh yes, no arguments on the formation of Amiga and all that, It's well documented. I was trying to point out that the 1400/1450 projects would not have been given up and "trashed" in mid-1983. But I don't think I would call March of 1984 "long before Tramiel". It was four months before Tramiel took over and they went from Warner corporate mismanagement to the Tramiel's whole different style of mismanagement. I've been out of the active communication on the Atari community for a number of years, and clearly details have emerged on this that were not well-known 10 years ago...but I think there is some confusion on my post. As I mentioned in my posting, from Curt's scanned pages it is clear on February 7th 1984 that they are clearly discussing the Tong-type board. But from those notes, it was not clear as to when the transition took place...the 1400XL was listed as cancelled on 6 December. And on 7 Feb, they are discussing what must be the Tong 1450XLD. There is no documentation here showing that the first 1450 was cancelled. I don't doubt for a moment that you are correct (although for the sake of this discussion, I was just pointing out that the 1400/1450 projects could not have been thrown away in September 1983 as they were not dead yet...again, I was just trying to squelch the dumpster rumors). That being said, clearly you've seen some information I have not. If in November/December the old 14xx computers were active, and by 7 Feb the new ones were active, when did the transition take place? I'd love to read the sources. BUT, that was not my point here. I was only discussing the dumpster stories for de-labeled 1400s and 1450s, and how they were not only incorrect, but impossible in the timeline.

So I continue my 1400/1450 monologue here. I had to drive down to my office and when I got there, I decided to pull out the files I have on the 1450 and see if I can double-check a couple of these things. Looking back over the dates, I would think they never got to the printed stage. This is not for certain, just a educated guess. I can't say if I saw those designs or I am thinking of one of the prototype 800XL boxes. But I don't think a single box was ever printed. Looking at the 1450 engineering notes Curt has on his site, http://www.atarimuse...ld/1450xld.html, on 8 November 1983 they say the 1450 tooling (molds) had been textured and 25 PCBs had been finished. So at this point the case design for the 1450 is final. The smooth case 1450 plastics are from before this date. All manuals and artwork would be completed by 17 November 1983. They are talking about "Rev 2" of the 1450, and mention that the 1400 Telecom cartridge will not work on it. Perhaps this is a derivation of the Tong design? It is interesting to see that 23,000 ROMS had been ordered for the 1400 Telecommunicator cartridge. I wonder what happened to them? Even at this point they were still working on FCC clearance and arguments that the products were not viable; sounds like internal fighting between departments and some serious noise issues. By 29 November, only 10 1450 boards had been received by San Jose. By 6 December, the notes say the 1400 has been cancelled. By 16 December, they say they have ordered 150 sets of 1450XLD plastic and have 65 PCBs. They are planning to take 8 1450s to CES in January. By 7 Feb 1984, they are discussing what will be the Tong board, with a 6502 (not 65816), a 1200XL keyboard and the SC02 speech chip. To be assembled at Atari El Paso (that would have been neat) with a PCB from Taiwan. By 16 Feb, marketing is estimating 1985 sales of 75,000. ...and then we run out of documentation in the engineering notes. But the other manuals on his site show that the 1450XLD was still a viable project in April of 1984, and the latest ROM on Curt's site is from 11 June 1984. I'd have to open mine to check the dates, but since Atari Inc ceased to exist on 1 July 1984, it seems firm that the 1450XLD was under devlopment right up until the end of the company. From that point, we get into the story of the Tramiel's and Amiga and all that mess, which is OT in this discussion.

Okay, well I totally disagree with this comment. I assume you mean like a rapid prototyping plastic? I'm not saying they never existed in the 1980s, but I've never seen an Atari product from the 1980s in anything but a mold-made plastic shell. It used the same plastic formula and color as the final product, but were often "smooth case samples". When Atari first had cases made, they were a "smooth case" sample, without the texturing. Once they got the final design, then the molds were textured. A lot of the engineering units would be built in the smooth plastic cases. My 1400XLs were both in textured cases, the top case identical to the 1200XL and the bottom with the additional SIO cutouts. It's a full production case.. My Tong 1450XLD is in a smooth sample case. On my 815s, one is an early smooth prototype, but the other two are production-stage units. One is the FCC sample (to check for noise compliance) and the other is an actual production unit (#19) that was never shipped. No waxy plastic on any of them. I have some of the original 815 sample plastics. One, in smooth plastic, is labeled "Second Sampling, November 1 1980, Tool-Tech, Dual Floppy Housing, CO15903 Rev 6". So clearly they had already been through six revisions, at least two made into actual plastic runs. It's not quite right, either. A later one, with texture, is labeled "6-3-81 UPM. Off of 1st produc. run of 200 plus pcs, check on trimmed and flashed areas". I'm not sure _anyone_ used rapid prototyping at the time. Even the Atari clear case sample "fit" pieces I have seen have been in a production mold. This is true from my oldest prototype case (this 815 from 1980) right up to the XE units from the mid-80s (like the XTM201), even some with parts of the design sketched on in pencil are made of normal plastic in normal molds. I don't buy that at all, it makes no sense. The ET carts were part of a bunch of truckloads of crap hauled to the landfill in New Mexico from Atari warehouses in Forth Worth. There is no reason they would ship prototypes from Sunnyvale. A prototype 1400, even 50 of them, would not change Atari sales in anything, nor would it be returned to a distributor as shop soiled like the game carts. Plus, the stuff was hauled to the landfill by BFI waste disposal, there were no ranks of Atari employees to grab anything. Finally, the ET dumping took place in September 1983 when the 1400 was still in development. Brad Koda (Best Electronics), Bruce Carso (B&C ComputerVisions) and the guy who ran San Jose Computer, whose name I forget, bought all these from Atari in the 1980s in large lots. Brad had the 1450XLD boards for sale in his catalog in 1988, I still have my copy. They were $150. Bruce ended up with some complete systems which he sold (I have one of his 1400XLs), some other stuff including some of the 1090's went to generic surplus dealers like WeirdStuff, Halted, Alltronics, etc. I still found some Atari stuff at WeirdStuff in the 1990s. They split things up among them. Brad got parts, and Bruce and the San Jose guy took systems. I've heard about 50 815s were made. I seem to recall around 150 1400s/1450s, and far fewer Tong 1450s existed. I'm not sure on any of those numbers...but I would believe the 815 number, as it came from the project manager.

I just replied to a question from a member, and I decided to post it in this discussion. He had asked if the cartridge was brown all the way through, or a painted grey cartridge. My reply is below: It is brown all the way through. If it was not obvious, you could tell because when I took it through airport security in San Jose, they insisted on X-raying it. I was unwilling to send 25-year-old UV EPROMS through what is basically an unregulated CAT scanner--and thankfully one of the TSA guys was an ex-semiconductor industry worker and understood the issues, but they made me open the carts and one of the tabs broke off. That's why I keep it apart now, I'm afraid if I assemble it again I won't be able to take it back apart without breaking it; 1-2 tabs were gone before I got it. The other brown cart I have is similar. Again, the molds for the grey cartridges were modified, the line that says "A Warner Communication Company" was milled out of the molds before the grey ones were made, that's why they have the strange grey bar across the base where mine has the Warner logo. The brown carts match the brown plastic on the XL series computers. John Seghers was at the last Classic Gaming Expo in Vegas. I asked him about the Atari 800 Gremlins, and he said he programmed it first, then converted that code for the 5200 version. He was surprised to hear it was considered lost. He also confirmed that it had been on a bankswitched "supercart". He said he also programmed RealSports Soccer for the 800, but that appears to be totally lost, at least for now. Edited to add: This would suggest that he cannot find the disk mentioned by Tempest above. I've got about 2/3 of my Atari collection unpacked now. I am afraid I'm not really reading these forums anymore, this discussion totally killed my enthusiasm for the online Atari community...I'm afraid to even mention things for fear of being called a liar or a braggart, so I guess I'll just keep it to myself. I have found a number of spare and duplicate items I'll be auctioning on ebay over the next few months.

There was a 1400 and a 1450 board. As far as I know, they were the same board with a different silkscreen and the addition of an expansion connector for the floppy drive. I had both at one time, and somewhere I have photos of each. They are about the same size as a 1200XL board. The 1450XLD Tong board is huge. Totally different board, with the floppy connector built in. I did photograph mine; I don't want to pull it out again because it is pretty fragile (due to the size, mainly). I can probably find the photos if people really want to see them. Brad was selling the standard (non-Tong) 1450XL boards.

Okay, over the years I keep hearing people describing Atari 1400s and 1450s without nameplates as "dumpster computers". I don't know where that started, but this is incorrect. Atari *did* have a lot of "dumpster divers" pulling things out of the trash. Some tried to return them to the Atari Company Store inside 1265 Borregas. But, as far as I know no 1450s or 1400s were ever junked. The developers wanted them. The public wanted them. Atari *was* selling the working ones out of the Atari company store. All of my Atari prototypes have their nameplates except for my 1400XL (I used to have two, neither had a nameplate) or my 1450XLD. I've asked about this over the years. I asked John Russell, Brad Koda and Bruce Carso back when I was first building my collection in the mid-1990s. They all told me variations on the same story: Atari was worried about the FCC. This is about the time that the FCC was *really* cracking down on RF emissions from home computers. I assume everyone here knows that this is why the Atari 800 did not have I/O card slots like the Apple ][, and had such heavy shielding. The FCC demanded that anything with RF output meet broadcast standards for shielding. The Apple got around this because it did not have an RF modulator, kits were installed by dealers to provide this. The TI 99 could not meet the standards, so they simply got the computer approved without a TV out, and then got an external RF modulator and TV switch combo approved, then shipped them in the same box. The FCC got annoyed at all this and was cracking down. Computer stores were no longer permitted to sell Apple computers with the illegal RF modulator installed. Atari was selling these prototypes out of the company store (and I've also heard they were selling them at their Federated Department Store). But because of the FCC fears, they demanded all the computers that did NOT meet FCC shielding guidelines have the Atari nameplate removed. There was no shielding inside any of these machines (and some of the technical notes Curt has posted mentioned some issues with shielding on the 1450XLD). Brad Koda told me (this was 1995 or so) that he used to sell 1200XL nameplates to people with 1400s and 1450s. They would remove the markings with Acetone and using a Kroy lettering machine, they would produce reproduction 1400 and 1450 labels. He told me the font to use, but I've now forgotten. Even at that time, he was out of 1200XL nameplates because of this. So that is the story I heard. I think the dumpster story (when it comes to 1400/1450s, at least) is a myth. Tramiel's Atari would never throw anything away they could sell, anyway. I do have some prototypes that came out of dumpsters. Some wirewrapped SALT boards. Apparently John Russell used to pay the bums in the area to bring him crap from the Atari dumpsters. I know they were ordered for the 1450XLD, along with the Olympic labels. I've never seen one, though I think I may have seen a photo of the foils. I'm sure if they were ever printed, they were pulped during the crash. I've never tried mine, but I don't know why it would not work. This was nothing new; my TRS-80 Model 100 had a 300 baud internal modem long before the 1400 was out. This does not make sense. SAM was out for the Atari 800 before the Commodore 64 hit the market. And the big deal about SAM was that it was a "Software Automated Mouth", meaning that you did not need hardware. The early 14xx's used the Votrax SC-01, a well known chip that was used in a lot of products, including the Q*Bert arcade game. The later (Tong) 1450XLD used the SC-02. I've never tried to use the sound in my 1450XLD, but the 1400XL will be a typical Vortrax sound. The University where I studied used SC-01's in their cardswipe doorlock systems. If so, I hope they have not modified the hardware. You can build all the custom systems you want out of an 800XL, why trash a rare prototype?