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F#READY

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    Understanding Atari floppy drive timing

    in Atari 8-Bit Computers

    Posted

    ...

    In ATP the timing information is stored in a separate section of the file: http://members.chell...fenga/ATP16.htm

     

    Interesting read. Thanks for the link.

     

    IMHO, you are complicating yourself unnecessarily trying to find an "unique" sector (without duplicates). But yes, I seem to recall a few cases where sector 1 is a double sector. And, IIRC, there is at least one case without sector 1 at all (obviously, not a bootable disk).

     

    Can you elaborate on this? I assume you know an alternative for having a unique sector (as a virtual index hole).

     

    BTW any help on the ATP format would be very welcome!

     

    P.S. are you the author of VAPI ???

    How SPS helps you to preserve your original disks

    in Atari 8-Bit Computers

    Posted

    ...

    I've just finished testing my Kryoflux setup and everything seems to work perfectly.

     

    Now I'm considering the 'reed contact with magnet' modification to do flippy disks.

    Anyone tried this? E.g. here: http://www.siliconso...t/flipside.html

     

    I don't think they (SPS) want that (the 'reed contact with magnet' modification) for original manufacture disks, because they want exact images of the whole disk.

    If you are just using it for imaging personal disks it should work well.

     

    Hm, interesting point.

    I thought, since the 1050 doesn't use the index hole anyway, it makes no difference to use the real index hole sensor or to fake it.

     

    Have to ask them (SPS) if this method is allowed. Thanks for your remark!

    How SPS helps you to preserve your original disks

    in Atari 8-Bit Computers

    Posted

    I've now imaged 155 disks. This represents most of the original, non-flippy disks that I have (I need to do one more sweep since there are probably 20 or so I missed).

     

    If anyone has any original disks they would like to have imaged, please let me know and we can work out a way to get them to me and back. I can image them and then send you the IPF when I receive it. I am still working on getting a drive that I can modify to do flippy disks.

     

    Here's what I've done so far:

     

    ...

     

    Wow! Nice work!

     

    I've just finished testing my Kryoflux setup and everything seems to work perfectly.

     

    Now I'm considering the 'reed contact with magnet' modification to do flippy disks.

    Anyone tried this? E.g. here: http://www.siliconsonic.de/t/flipside.html

    How SPS helps you to preserve your original disks

    in Atari 8-Bit Computers

    Posted

    Also bought the KryoFlux for preserving disks in the context of the Atari Preservation Project (after all those years).

    I can imagine that we eventually will extract other image formats from this (e.g. PRO, VAPI or ATP).

     

    @Farb: what are the downsides of IPF? Just curious.

     

    Any experience with flippy disks yet? I mean, anyone already modified a drive for flippy disks?

    Atari Cassette Preservation?

    in Atari 8-Bit Computers

    Posted

    @Kr0tki: I really like your work on .CAS tools, just wanted to point this out. I will use it to get the pure data from the source signal. Also use it to verify and check for uniqueness of the file (that's not going to work with WAV files).

    However, for preservation purposes I have enough motivation to save the audio (WAV). For example, you already mention the fact that the signal could be found on both left and right channel. This is exactly the kind of information I want to preserve next to the data. Of course the CAS format could be extended to save more information, but the point is, we don't know at the moment what we want to know in the future.

     

    @Marius1976: Personally I don't see any value in the 'feel' of the original sound. They're just bleeps to me and although I like atonal music this is not my kind of music ;-)

    I would like to know how you are recording (digitising) your tapes. I can imagine you have much better equipment as a musician. What quality do you use (16-bit 44.1KHz stereo?).

    How do you calibrate your equipment to get the best recording? Did you choose WAV for a specific reason? Which cassette deck do you use or prefer? etc...

     

    @Ivop: You brought up the redundancy issue. I have to admit, it didn't even cross my mind. I'm not an expert on this, so thanks for pointing it out. Having multiple copies (of both CAS and WAV) would be good enough I guess?

     

    Finally, thanks all for the interesting discussion going on here!

    Atari Cassette Preservation?

    in Atari 8-Bit Computers

    Posted

    My only concern was (is) that you _need_ to save the original source if your goal is long-term preservation.

    Would you mind not telling me what I need to do? I can imagine that each of us understands "preservation" differently, but telling people what they need is bordering on rude.

     

    In case you want to preserve a corrupted tape, you save the audio signal in the highest lossless quality and then the process of restoration can begin.

    Let's say you find another tape which is also corrupt, you still have a better chance of _reconstructing_ the original from the two corrupted ones.

    Sure, keeping recordings of corrupted tapes is useful, I'm doing it myself; however once you manage to create a correct CAS image, storing them becomes pointless - a CAS image contains all data needed to restore the tape in its original form. (Well, unless you count such features like for example non-standard shape of the signal's sine wave as important enough to preserve. Obviously I don't.)

     

    The tool is created and can contain bugs. Some tools are better than others.

    The advantage of existence of multiple (two three, including a8cas-util.pl) CAS imaging software developed independently is, we can rule out probability of them having errors quite easily, by cross-comparison.

     

    In all cases we need the material most close to the source which can be preserved for a long time.

    Here's another one. What's up with this telling people what they need?

     

    Ok, I'm sorry my wording offends you. My English is probably not good enough to clarify what I mean. The sentences "you need/we need" are not intended to tell you/us to do anything.

     

    Let me then finish to say I'm going to store the original WAV together with metadata about the processed/extracted CAS file(s). This may be useful, maybe not. :)

    Atari Cassette Preservation?

    in Atari 8-Bit Computers

    Posted

    No, I mean _all_ tapes!

    How can you be sure that the CAS image contains all the data?

    A CAS file actually contains more data than the source audio file - it contains decoded bytes of data.

     

    An audio file contains unprocessed series of signals, which may contain noise, random drops in signal level, and other glitches that might break the loading process on some of the lesser-quality Atari tape recorders. The quality of such audio file can be verified only by checking whether a tape recreated from such file loads correctly - and even if it loads, it may be only by chance, because existence of the aforementioned glitches might break the loading process when it is performed again, or on another tape recorder.

     

    Converting an audio file to CAS decodes the raw audio signal to bytes of data - similarly to what POKEY does while loading - and during this process the data is actually verified for correctness. If the conversion ended with success, the resulting image:

    - contains no glitches that could prevent the tape from loading; and

    - has no frame errors involving invalid lengths of start bits, stop bits, etc.

    Correctness of the resulting CAS image can be additionally verified by computing checksums of each block of data.

     

    Sometimes preserving a tape may involve manual intervention. I have designed software for preserving of all kinds of tapes (even copy-protected ones) in CAS format (see the signature). Using this software I've managed to recreate CAS images of a few tapes that could no longer load on a physical computer. Restoring these tapes involved manual removal of glitches in the source signal and then verifying checksums of the resulting blocks - but it resulted in CAS images with better quality than the source signal. This experience allows me to conclude: CAS Images Are Better.

     

     

    Good points! I try to clarify...

     

    Ok, let's assume the WAV file is correct (more about this later). The WAV file then contains all the information to convert to CAS, so the information was already available in the WAV file.

    But I agree completely that the original form (WAV) isn't the ideal format for the user of even for further processing.

     

    Don't get me wrong, I fully acknowledge your skills on processing and preserving tapes. My only concern was (is) that you _need_ to save the original source if your goal is long-term preservation.

     

    In case you want to preserve a corrupted tape, you save the audio signal in the highest lossless quality and then the process of restoration can begin.

    Let's say you find another tape which is also corrupt, you still have a better chance of _reconstructing_ the original from the two corrupted ones.

     

    Verification is indeed a very important point. That's where the tools can help out. Still, using a tool is also a human intervention step. The tool is created and can contain bugs. Some tools are better than others.

    Maybe in the future we will have tools which can automate even more steps from the restoration process.

    In all cases we need the material most close to the source which can be preserved for a long time.

     

    So, in short, I think CAS files are ok to store next to the original signal (WAV or whatever is decided). Also for the user who is not really concerned with preservation, CAS is fine.

     

    Hope this makes sense?

    Atari Cassette Preservation?

    in Atari 8-Bit Computers

    Posted

     

    The preserved image can then be processed by tools like WAV2CAS or whatever, but the initially recorded image should at least be archived.

    I hope you are thinking only about tapes with audio tracks - for other tapes keeping a CAS image is enough, as its contains all data needed to recreate such tape.

     

    I know there are 'CAS' archives, but what about 'WAV' archives? (or any other suitable lossless audio format).

    The "Tape Preservation Project" at AtariArea has a few MP3s and FLACs.

     

    Thanks for your comments Kr0tki.

     

    No, I mean _all_ tapes!

    How can you be sure that the CAS image contains all the data?

     

    Call me paranoia, but MP3 is not a valid archiving format since it's lossy. FLAC would be ok, but it also depends on the recording method / equipment.

     

    Ofcourse I understand the need for a more compact form to use for e.g. emulators.

     

    My point is, preservation is for the very long future where you need to minimise the risk of loosing a single bit of information.

    Processing raw material (e.g. using wav2cas) introduces a risk which can not be reverted without the raw image.

    Atari Cassette Preservation?

    in Atari 8-Bit Computers

    Posted

    One doesn't have to use WAV2CAS. It's just an option. You can keep the WAVes and just use these to load on A8 or emulator. You can even encode the WAVes to FLAC to save some HD space and still have a lossless dump of both data- and audio-track.

     

    Agree completely with your remarks about tape preservation Fox-1.

     

    To preserve a tape you need some lossless audio format and record as much as you can from the tape in the highest possible quality.

    The preserved image can then be processed by tools like WAV2CAS or whatever, but the initially recorded image should at least be archived.

     

    I know there are 'CAS' archives, but what about 'WAV' archives? (or any other suitable lossless audio format).

     

    P.S. I'm trying to revive and re-organize the Atari Preservation Project, so that's why I got interested. :)

    The Dutch High-Tech Team reunion

    in Atari 8-Bit Computers

    Posted

    MY name is Stormtrooper of Death, my real name is richard. I was a member of the famous Dutch High-Tech Team in the 80s and 90s. Some Atarians remember the Big Demo. I did not work on the Big Demo, but on the Platinum Demo, that was never released.

     

    I became a member of the HTT, Because i invented the cruncher logic (simple RAR archiver zero crunching, then symbolic crunching technique).

     

    Anyhow, The Dutch High Tech Team (HTT). If anybody knows other members, please contact. MAybe we can organise a reunion. who knows.

     

    Hi Richard. Nice to meet you again after all these years! :-D

    I don't remember your contribution to the Platinum. What was it?

    The cruncher I remember! It crashed and never got it working! LOL

     

    Regards,

    Freddy.

     

    Hi Frankenstein, haha, long time no C. Last time we had contact with eachother was in 1992 or so ? I got interested again in the old ATari 8bit, because on the internet there are many Atari 8bit-fan sites and communities.

     

    Do you still listen to Metal music ? Hehe. Johan/Prizm still lives in Eindhoven. I myselve have lived in many parts of the world.

     

    Greetingx vrom Stormtrooper of Death/Richard.

     

    Hi Richard/Frikandel ;-)

     

    A reunion, nice idea! So, let's get to the point. Who will be invited? Where and when? Let's call it: 8-bit Re-Onion! :)

     

    I've been looking for Prizm a couple of times, but couldn't find him online. Would be very nice to get his e-mail address!

     

    Metal, I still listen to it sometimes, but my taste in music 'evolved' over the years... :-D

     

    Greetz,

    F#READY

    The Dutch High-Tech Team reunion

    in Atari 8-Bit Computers

    Posted

    Did you not come to the AMS show in stafford Freddy, think i bought a complete set of MegaZines there (along with the set i already had) I think you were showing or selling a blackbox pbi thing on your stand

     

    Did you also do the dutch 'Pokey' disk magazines

     

    I've been at the AMS indeed. Don't remember I brought my Black Box, although I do own one (still have it somewhere).

     

    No, I didn't make Pokey Magazine. It was made by the Dutch Pokey Foundation/ANG Software.

    MegaZine was also distributed/sold by ANG Software.

    The Dutch High-Tech Team reunion

    in Atari 8-Bit Computers

    Posted

    Hello mr Offenga, nice to see you in these parts

     

    Any reason why you didn't continue with the Megazine...i think I have all 7 issues

     

    Hi,

     

    There was a lack of contributions (articles) for MegaZine. This was a problem since the beginning.

    I've released the final one (#8) quite some years ago. It contains mainly articles from my dear friend 'BeWeSoft' and myself.

     

    It's in the public domain, but you can still get the 'real' thing here:

    http://www.smartcms.nl/cms2/sites/1038/index.php?idx=577&id=4708&aktie=details&groep_id=124

     

    Regards,

    Freddy.

    The Dutch High-Tech Team reunion

    in Atari 8-Bit Computers

    Posted

    MY name is Stormtrooper of Death, my real name is richard. I was a member of the famous Dutch High-Tech Team in the 80s and 90s. Some Atarians remember the Big Demo. I did not work on the Big Demo, but on the Platinum Demo, that was never released.

     

    I became a member of the HTT, Because i invented the cruncher logic (simple RAR archiver zero crunching, then symbolic crunching technique).

     

    Anyhow, The Dutch High Tech Team (HTT). If anybody knows other members, please contact. MAybe we can organise a reunion. who knows.

     

    Hi Richard. Nice to meet you again after all these years! :-D

    I don't remember your contribution to the Platinum. What was it?

    The cruncher I remember! It crashed and never got it working! LOL

     

    Regards,

    Freddy.

    The Dutch High-Tech Team reunion

    in Atari 8-Bit Computers

    Posted

    Hi all!

     

    I can not confirm 'leaked' source code from the 'Platinum'.

    As why it was never released it was mostly because we had other things to do (hehe).

    At the time I was busy with 'MegaZine' and did a few demo's together with 'Prizm'.

    The 'peak' of the HTT was the release of the 'Big Demo' and all the reactions we got on that demo.

     

    Nice memories....

     

    Regards,

    Freddy.

    (was: Frankenstein)

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