[AI Superlearner for Atari 800, 1450XLD]

Here's OCR output using Google's OCR engine if anyone wants to use it as a basis for some manual clean-up work.

Superlearner.BAS.txt Superlearner.DOC.txt

[Converting Jag CD's to ISO image]

On 4/13/2021 at 5:41 PM, mario64 said:

Thank you for this detailed post. Unfortunately neither of these tools is producing a usable image of Dragon's Lair. I tried CCD data and game options as well as IMGBURN. Saint's tool rejects them all. Which version of CloneCD is working for you?

I haven't tried Saint's conversion tool, yet, since I don't yet have a Jag GD (still waiting on mine).  What error do you get when you try the conversion?  I was thinking of trying it out this weekend.

 

[Converting Jag CD's to ISO image]

I just ran some comparisons backing up using CloneCD (5.3.4) and ImgBurn (2.5.8).  Here are my notes:

 

CloneCD

 

CloneCD presents you with five options when backing up a CD: Audio CD, Data CD, Game CD, Multimedia Audio CD, and Protected PC Game.  These options toggle a few settings during the backup.  Based on the log output, these changes are:

                                 Audio  Data  Game  MMCD  PC
 Read SubChannel on Data Tracks: No     No    Yes   No    No
Read SubChannel on Audio Tracks: No     No    Yes   Yes   No
             Report Read Errors: Yes    Yes   No    Yes   No

"Audio" is different from "Data" in that in only seems to extract the first session. This always resulted in very short image files which were obviously missing data, so we won't use for Jaguar backups.

 

I don't know if Jaguar CDs ever make use of the SubChannel data on tracks.  If they do, then we obviously want to use CloneCD's "Game" option, as that's the only one that includes this data for both data and audio tracks.  However, this option also disables reporting read errors (presumably because they'll sometimes crop up as a form of copy protection).

 

If none of the Jaguar CDs use SubChannel data, then the "Data" backup option seems optimal, as that includes reporting on read errors.

 

CloneCD backups always result in three files:

 

CCD - A text file with metadata on the IMG file
* Minor differences between the different backup options:
- Multimedia and Game CCD files were identical
- Data and Protected PC CCD files were identical

- Multimedia and Game CCD files had a couple of extra lines, probably having to do with the extracted SubChannel data

IMG - The extracted binary data from all disc tracks
* With the exception of the Audio CD backup option, the IMG files were identical for all versions

SUB - Extracted SubChannel data

* These were different depending on the backup option chosen

 

ImgBurn

 

ImgBurn provides a single image backup function.  It creates a IMG file along with a CUE file. It can optionally output CloneCD-compatible CCD file to go along with these files, but the output of the IMG and CUE file is the same regardless of whether you choose this option.

 

In my tests, the IMG file created by ImgBurn was always larger than the IMG file created by CloneCD, and larger than the IMG and SUB files created by CloneCD combined. I don't know if the SubChannel data extracted by CloneCD is embedded in ImgBurn's IMG file, though, or why there's a significant size discrepancy.

 

ImgBurn's CloneCD-compatible CCD file has largely the same output as the CloneCD-generated file, but there are a few differences, including sometimes different values.

 

It's not possible to mount the image created by ImgBurn using Virtual CloneDrive and get same output as above using CloneCD. This may be because of limitations of Virtual CloneDrive and not because data is missing, but we don't know.

 

Conclusion

 

Based on these results, and the fact that Saint specifically mentions CloneCD, I betting on the safest bet right now being using CloneCD with its Game CD backup settings.  I think it's pretty unlikely JagCDs make use of SubChannel data, but better to have it than not.  The only downside to this is that read error reporting is disabled, but I didn't run into any read errors when testing discs with the other backup options.  If you want to be doubly-certain, you can back up the image twice: once in Data mode and once in Game mode, then throw out the Data mode backup once you've confirmed you haven't gotten any errors.  Modern drives are very quick to read the entire disc contents, so it's not much extra time or effort.

 

[Working JagCD price 2021?]

I just listed my CIB on eBay. Fingers crossed that it goes well. It's true that eBay's rules are stacked against sellers, but I've had relatively few bad experiences. (I probably just jinxed myself with that statement...)

 

I haven't yet listed my CD titles, as I'm wondering if there's a definitive way of backing these up.  I assume there's enough copies out there that it's not a big deal if I don't make backups of mine - someone else will do it - but I'm just not sure.  I have Braindead 13, Highlander, Dragon's Lair, Hover Strike, Baldies, Battle Morph, Space Ace, and Myst.  Any thoughts on the need to make backups of these - either the discs or the boxes -  for posterity's sake?

[The Atari VCS Controversies Thread]

1 hour ago, zzip said:

A lot of the negativity towards Atari and the VCS seems to come from the fact that they are no longer one of the Big 3, and people wish that if they are going to do hardware, they would make something that puts them back in competition with the Big 3.

I don't know anyone who expects Atari in any current incarnation to compete with the Big 3 or even thinks they should try.  If there's any confusion about that it's been due to Atari's own mis/communication.

 

All the negativity I'm aware of comes down to two simple issues: 1.) Whether there's a place for VCS2020 that makes sense beyond nostalgia given its feature set and price. 2.) How Atari has mismanaged the project on nearly every front.

 

[The Atari VCS Controversies Thread]

13 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

I HATE the "this console is really a computer!" argument, like that somehow invalidates it or it's some form of cheating. It's purely semantics. Many consoles, including from Atari, have been consoles running so-called "computer" hardware, and many consoles could be turned into full computers. So what? It's not the hardware that makes a console worthwhile, it's the easy accessibility and game selection. And certainly the "console" designation has become abstracted to a degree anyway since we have so many set top boxes that also function exactly like consoles, although that's typically not their primary functions. 

 

Call the VCS what you will, but dinging it for being more computer than console is not really a path I'd personally go down. I'd challenge it more on how well it can function like a console or computer, or even a typical set top box for that matter. From the early reviews, it seems like it has a long way to go serving any of those functions. At this point it feels more like a variation of a single board computer concept (Pi, Odroid, etc.) than something meant as a mass market product.

 

I think there's more to it. 

 

Of course all consoles are computers, but "it's only a PC" means there's nothing to differentiate this piece of hardware from the ubiquitous hardware that so many people already have at home and/or work.  The effect of that is that it narrows the reasons to buy said console. Since there is nothing unique about the hardware, it means it's solely up to the software to make the console a worthwhile platform.

 

The only way to make the software really compelling is to provide experiences I can't get elsewhere.  But if the hardware is "just a PC", what do I do in software that I can't deliver to a much wider audience on regular PC's?

 

While I think it's theoretically possible to deliver a compelling console experience using nothing more than commodity PC hardware, I think it's telling that (almost) no one has succeed with that formula. (The most successful and closest to "just a PC" was the original Xbox. Microsoft's deep pockets let it get some really good software like "Halo". This was before Steam came along to give PC's a greatly simplified and more console-like game deployment experience, of course.)

 

If you don't differentiate in hardware, then you've reduced (more likely eliminated) your ability to differentiate at all.

 

"...like that somehow invalidates it or it's some form of cheating."

I don't think of it as cheating, but I think it's lazy... it shows that the creator either isn't serious about creating a sustainable platform, or they don't understand why consoles exist. The end result is the same either way.  (Again, this assuming they don't deliver something unique in software, but I've yet to see anyone ever accomplish that without some differentiation in hardware.)

 

Consoles continue to exist because they deliver a different experience from what most of us already have ready access to.  If you're just selling a PC without a keyboard, you're going to have a really difficult time delivering anything unique.

 

 

 

 

[The Atari VCS Controversies Thread]

4 hours ago, Atarick said:

The easiest thing Atari could have done was develop a killer game side by side with the VCS, exclusive to it.

If that’s the easy path, I’d hate to see what the hard one entails.

[The Atari VCS Controversies Thread]

2 hours ago, Solomon_Man said:

But I am the ones that will help keep the Retro-Computing Scene healthy financially so people will have options.

I'm curious what convinced you to spend money on VCS2020.  Looking at their web site right now and pretending I know nothing about how the project has been mismanaged to date, I really don't see any reason to buy this thing outside of plain nostalgia for the logo.  Based on the site, here's what they're selling:

• "Built for today" with a list of current PC tech standards (HDMI, Bluetooth, WiFi, etc.)
• "Born to be different" because it can boot Windows
• "Play", "Stream", "Connect" - basic stuff every device sold in the last decade can do

So... why buy this?  Does it deliver a library of classic games that aren't available elsewhere? Does it provide a better experience playing classic games?  Are there interesting new games inspired by classics available or on the roadmap?

 

Really, the only thing they mention that has any potential to make this interesting beyond just having a neat box is the "Create" bit: "Develop new TV-based games and apps for yourself, your family, or to share with the Atari VCS community."  At least in concept, that would be an area where VCS2020 could differentiate itself and provide a feature that isn't bog-standard on every watch, thermostat, and refrigerator in 2020.

 

You'd expect a system that highlights "Create" as a fundamental feature to provide documentation, software, or even an expected roadmap to providing this functionality, but it's never again mentioned on the web site.

 

Atari is doing nothing for the retro computing or gaming scenes.

 

Here's a couple of retro-related products I'm actually looking forward to. In both cases, I'd say the companies involved are genuinely contributing to the health of and excitement for the retro scene, although they're going about it in different ways.

 

Analogue Pocket

Panic Playdate

 

[The Atari VCS Controversies Thread]

Has anyone ever gone into detail on what's being shown in that VCS2020 group photo with the motherboard in the foreground?  That doesn't look like a PC layout, and I can't identify what those six wide ports are up front. Is it even related to the VCS2020 design?

[The Atari VCS Controversies Thread]

1 minute ago, Atarick said:

Maybe one of the most odd driving reasons I remain interested in this thing, classic Atari or non, is that I genuinely wonder if anything we could describe as a "new console" from Atari will ever happen again. Considering we had a 27 year wait between the Jaguar and the VCS, another 20-something year wait would put me in my 60s when the next "new Atari system" drops. Not saying I won't pick up a new console then, but probably a stretch. AARP subscription and coupons on the other hand, now I am 100% in. The allure of having a new Atari product now, to show my kids, flawed as it is, is one of the pathetic romantic appeals to me. The return on investment is still out of whack IMHO, but I get the appeal for some. 

 

I would only be interested in a new Atari console if it were an actual console purpose-designed for playing games and bringing something new to the table.  As Nintendo has shown, you don't have to compete with Sony and Microsoft as long as you provide your own take on console design.  Of course, Nintendo has the considerable advantage of arguably the best games IP in history... 

 

The console would  have to avoid the mistakes of Ouya while filling some new niche not current covered by the big three. 

 

From what little I've read, Amico is trying to do something like that, which I can respect even if I have no interest in what they're offering.

 

Anyway, first step would be for someone who actually cared to get ownership of the Atari name.  Next step would be for them to be both competent and determined.  I have no expectations of this happening with Atari, unfortunately.

 

 

 

[The Atari VCS Controversies Thread]

7 minutes ago, Stephen said:

So, as we've been saying all along.  It completely gets its ass handed to it by hardware released all the way back in 2014.  All for only $400.  I get more impressed every day.

Sure, but can cheap hardware released way back in 2014 play classic games from the Atari Vault?   Oh, wait...

[The Atari VCS Controversies Thread]

I'm still pissed that anyone would dare mention VCS2020 in the same breath as the venerable Lynx.  <Mostly joking...>

 

Not only was the Lynx a proper console by every definition of the word, but it had very tangible connections to the Atari lineage!  It was designed* by two guys who worked on the Amiga (R. J. Mical and Dave Needle) after prompting from Amiga's co-founder, David Morse.  Hopefully I don't have to explain how the Amiga was connected to Atari.  Its multi-chip design had obvious inspirations from the Amiga and the Atari 8bits before it - all part of what one might call "the Jay Miner family".

 

If Atari had had better management over the years and not lost all its excellent engineering talent in the late 70's, the Lynx is very much what they would have produced in-house.

 

Never soil the sweet memory of the Lynx again! 

 

 

 

 

* The only aspect of the VCS2020 hardware one might described as "designed" is the case. The stuff inside the case is strictly a PC.

 

 

[The Atari VCS Controversies Thread]

8 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

 

And before anyone screams that the 2600, 5200, 7800, A8s, or STs were just a bunch of cobbled-together off-the-shelf parts that didn't have hardware distinguishable from any other device on the market, I'd like to mention the following ASICs that those machines incorporated:

 

TIA, RIOT, POKEY, ANTIC, CTIA/GTIA, SARA, FREDDY, PIA, Shifter, Blitter, Tom, Jerry, and others I can't recall off of the top of my head.

 

The Ataribollocks(tm) has what, exactly, that makes its hardware unique amongst x64 systems?

Yep. Of course you're going to use as many off the shelf parts as possible, but all consoles (from Atari and all other vendors) have had some kind of custom bits or tweaks to make them better suited to playing games than those off the shelf components would otherwise be on their own.

 

The same was true of the PS4/Xbone, which are largely similar to PC's, but have customizations in them that give them extra gaming chops than we'd see in PC's at their price points.  This is even more true with the latest PS5/XSX.

 

There's nothing of the sort in the VCS.  It's just a low end PC.

 

[The Atari VCS Controversies Thread]

1 hour ago, AlecRob said:

I always argue that if the Lynx is an Atari system, then so is the VCS.  

The Lynx was a unique system that had a unique library of games.  It was purpose-built as a game-playing device with hardware specifically suited to that purpose.

 

The VCS is an Atari-badged PC that runs Linux ports.  If you simply looked at its parts list or schematics, you'd never know is was meant as a game-playing device.  The VCS doesn't meet the definition of a console, in my opinion, Atari-branded or otherwise.

[The Atari VCS Controversies Thread]

8 minutes ago, Chopsus said:

Who's Al?

 

Does he listen to all complaints, or just ones about the VCS?

The Artificial Intelligence that creates most of the content in these forums.  You don't think all this crazy talk is coming from actual humans, do you?

[The Atari VCS Controversies Thread]

Credit where credit is due: They're actually getting this thing out to people a couple of weeks earlier than I expected.  The software is obviously not done (as expected), but at least it's not vaporware.  Also, whoever they hired to come up with graphics for the UI did a pretty nice job.  I hope they got paid decently.

 

At the end of the day, it's a cute, low-spec PC with a custom launcher to boot into, so I don't foresee anything interesting to talk about.  No interesting custom hardware features (unless you count the lights on the classic controller), and no exclusive software. 

 

So the only fun now will be in wagering how much of the system gets finished/fixed before they totally abandon it.  Or maybe how long it'll be before they stop responding to support requests.  Anyone want to make some guesses? 

 

(Counter to the nice graphics choices they made in the UI, the red, white and blue "Atari VCS" branding - particularly on the packaging - strikes me as really cheap in a K-Mart "blue light special" kind of way.)

[The Atari VCS Controversies Thread]

Good news! I was able to get an early screenshot of Cyberpunk 1977 (CP77) running on the new VCS!  Note that this is an early development shot -- the final version may lose a little detail here and there in order to maintain acceptable performance on release hardware.

 

[The Atari VCS Controversies Thread]

I appreciate the many months of prep work being put into this initial shipment. A lot of companies just receive stuff to ship and ship it out practically right away, not dedicating the considerable time and resources such shipments deserve.  But that's not Atari.  It just means things will go absolutely smoothly once things actually start going out the door. 

[The Atari VCS Controversies Thread]

5 hours ago, roots.genoa said:

And that's the problem when you let a license untouched for too long. If Adventure had evolved for four decades, it would probably be some kind of action-RPG like Dark Souls these days, and Haunted House would be a rival to Resident Evil and Silent Hill. ? But if you release a Dark Souls-like called Adventure now, people will find it far fetched like they did for that Asteroids Outpost game that was never released a few years ago. It's too late.

It's just a question of name recognition.  Very few 80's game titles still have name recognition among current-generation players.  Unless you're a game historian or well into your 40's, "Adventure", "Haunted House", and "Cloak and Dagger" are just nouns to you.  If you're going to make a new game, it makes little sense to tie it to an otherwise meaningless name like that.  While the concepts and gameplay may still have value, you'd be better off using a more evocative or unique name (e.g. "Silent Hill").

 

In order to be valuable, the name had to have a continuing presence among a significant percentage of the audience over the decades. There are very few games from the 80's that have had that kind of presence for the last 40 years. Tetris and Pac-Man are a couple of the few examples that come to mind.

 

I'd argue even the really huge hits from the 80's have low recognizability among most current players.  Tempest is a rare example of a game that has been remade/upgraded a few times (thanks, Yak!) and had some success, but even that has a pretty niche audience.  Asteroids, Missile Command, Defender, Joust and Battlezone are some of the most successful games from the era, but do those names have any meaning to the average game player under 30?  As foundational as Pong and Breakout were, does a kid these days recognize those names, and will their attention be held for more than 15 seconds by any modern game based on such simple mechanics?

 

I think the most valuable thing Atari has going for it is the name "Atari" itself and its logo.  It's remained present over the years and is still recognizable to players and non-players alike.  Despite everything, it still has a cool retro factor that nothing else really has.  The success of the VCS campaign was due to the Atari name and the retro look of the device.  Atari didn't promise any specific new games, or show any software we don't already have access to.  Everyone got excited because it was "Atari", and that was enough for many people.

 

The smart thing to do would be for Atari to become a publisher for new games from small/indie development teams. That would have real value, as being associated with "Atari" would give your game an immediate boost in recognition. 

 

Of course, in order to be successful as a publisher, the Atari name would have to be owned and managed by people who knew and cared about what they were doing. That's something we haven't seen in decades.

 

 

[The Atari VCS Controversies Thread]

5 hours ago, AlecRob said:

VCS will ship soon and people will actually physically have them. I wonder how the narrative will change at that point.

When they eventually ship it next year, we'll move on to making fun of the incredibly poor execution and the ridiculous price point for such a minimum-effort, low-power PC.  Now you know.

 

I don't long for the Atari of the past, but I do wish someone who actually cared about Atari's history and games in general would take ownership of the name.  The current owner is just further milking the name for what's left of its historic value and grinding it further into the ground. 

 

That's my "contention" with the current Atari in general and the VCS in particular.

 

[The Atari VCS Controversies Thread]

2 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

My suspicion that they have no money for software development remains intact, however.  Steam and Antstream seem to be their answer to the question of, "what games can this play, anyway?" for anything other than whatever emulated 2600 games they intend to bundle with it.

If they were ever going to pay for a dedicated version of Tempest, they would've done it already. That move alone would've sold a lot of units or at least generated lots of valuable buzz.

 

[The Atari VCS Controversies Thread]

"Did you know? You can spend 15 seconds searching the Internet to confirm the validity of your assumptions before posting them online!"

[Are console shortages by design?]

In a razor-and-blades business model, it makes zero sense not to get the razors out to as many people as you possibly can as quickly as possible.

 

The latest consoles are supply-constrained for the same reasons the latest graphics cards and latest AMD CPU's are supply-constrained: astronomically high demand for TSMC's foundry services.

[The Atari VCS Controversies Thread]

The Atari site explicitly says you can boot Windows 10 off an external drive, so I assume that's all it is: the BIOS is configured to check for external drives and boot any OS found there.  I doubt WINE support will be included out-of-the-box, since it would add unnecessary complexity and WINE support for current-day games is limited at best.  And while WINE isn't emulation, no one refers to it as "running natively".

 

I'm really curious to see how much or how little effort went into the VCS's Linux customization when this thing ships next year.

[Different FujiNet performance on different machines]

FN's WiFi connectivity is entirely disconnected from the Atari and SIO communication (unless you're trying to set the WiFi password and failing due to SIO failures, but if that were the case you wouldn't even be able to boot into the CONFIG program due to the same SIO failures).

 

Outside of configuring the right password, the only way the Atari could affect WiFi connectivity would be by causing radio interference. And honestly that's only theoretical - I've never actually seen that happen or heard of it happening.