phuzaxeman
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Posts posted by phuzaxeman
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6 hours ago, RockLobster said:
Sorry, no, I didn't mean comparing the speed of the 5200 version of Galaxian's player ship to a computer port. I meant if I were to use one of the 5200 digital joystick adapters, which speed does it use when using a digital stick to play the 5200 Galaxian. ...since a slight left (slower) would be interpreted the same as a full left (faster). Which analog input value do the adapters choose for this game?
It looks like it goes to about medium fast. That's pretty good. But on the hard levels, going fast to the left and right ends of the screen is pretty important to stay alive.
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On 7/1/2023 at 5:59 PM, RockLobster said:
One surprise I discovered was how Gorf and Galaxian has variable speeds for moving the ship! I don't know how I feel about that but am curious about how a digital adaptation would be like for these games. ...like would pressing a direction be super fast, super slow or ___?
http://www.grandideastudio.com/redemption-controller-adapter/On Galaxian, using the 5200 controls to control the ship speed is an advantage to maneuver around the missiles. The strategy and gameplay are different from the arcade. My scores were much lower when I used the digital stick. A digital adaption would be limiting (like the atari 8bit) because you only can move one speed. I'm not sure how fast or slow the computer version works.
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On 6/30/2023 at 11:02 AM, Ryan Witmer said:
Glad you enjoy it, and that somebody is playing it!
In retrospect, I wish I would have put a little more into that mode. A game length selector would have been nice.
You've done a lot with the game already and I'm thankful for that.
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On 6/30/2023 at 3:54 AM, ledzep said:
The 5200 analog joystick is a really good controller, it compares well with the Vectrex analog joystick (though the Vectrex has the advantage of self-centering) and various old PC analog sticks in terms of movement and precision. But it is a marginal controller for paddle games due to the physical control (stick vs. dial).
At the end of the day and through this whole discussion, the 5200 controllers are a really good controller and work well with Super Breakout. Modern technology like the gold dots and new flex circuits have helped solve the reliability issues of the past.
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54 minutes ago, ledzep said:
The 5200 analog joystick is a really good controller. It's marginal as a paddle, though. Which makes it marginal for bringing an actual arcade experience home for paddle games like Super Breakout.
You are again contradicting yourself. On one hand you're saying the 5200 controllers is the "wrong" controller and the 5200 controller is "bad" in comparison to the original arcade Super Breakout. But then you now say the controller is a really good controller.
54 minutes ago, ledzep said:Ah, I stand corrected. So then there's no excuse for you to not understand what is meant by trying to replicate the arcade experience with a home console version.
I understand what you're saying. But there wasn't any console that could replicate Super Breakout as the same arcade experience not even the 2600 paddles could do that.
54 minutes ago, ledzep said:You're not thinking like an engineer (and you need to for this thread). The 5200 was designed for analog inputs (and buttons). From its point of view it doesn't care how that is achieved, only that it expects analog signals on certain pins. What can supply those signals? An analog joystick using 2 potentiometers to provide horizontal and vertical signals, a trak-ball converted to output analog signals (internally it's converting gray code into analog joystick signals from what I remember, an abomination to some, hahaahahaa), or anything else. Like a paddle using a potentiometer. The 5200 isn't aware of what controllers were available when and doesn't care, it will read any analog signals within the correct range on the correct pins (sending those signals to the fire button pins will gain you nothing) and the software will use that for whatever it needs, including converting analog signal ranges to single values to simulate digital joysticks.
You don't need to think like an engineer to understand that the 5200 sticks are accurate and work well for Super Breakout. That's all that matters to me. That it worked. In worked great in 82 just like it works great in 2023. If you want to dive into another discussion about the engineering with other engineers, that's fine with me. I'm not going to pretend I understand the engineering behind the 5200 sticks. The engineering I know is that I rebuilt my sticks and they have lasted over 12+ years.
54 minutes ago, ledzep said:So get it straight, 5200 Super Breakout was designed for analog inputs, how those are provided or converted is up to the controller plugged into the controller ports. If the controller outputs correct analog signals, the 5200 was designed for it. Paddles, ta-da! They fit the required analog input specs.
Here's the thing, this version (5200 Breakout) was created to work with the analog sticks. Countermeasure and Real Sports baseball and other games were also created with the 5200 controller.
54 minutes ago, ledzep said:Analog joystick? Not bad but not right. Trak-ball? Not bad but maybe worse? Paddle? Bingo, perfect translation as you're gonna get.
This is where we are going in circles. You also contradict yourself. You said the controller was "bad." Now it's "not bad but not right." You can say that it's not the exact one like the arcade. What's right for me maybe not right for you.
54 minutes ago, ledzep said:I understand that you want to change the thread's subject to something else for whatever reason. I don't care, I'm sticking as best I can (occasional joke aside) to the thread's subject line in deference to the OP. You should try it.
I'm not changing the thread's subject. You originally said, that "Breakout is supposed to be played with a paddle." My original point is I disagree with that statement. That's what you think. That's your opinion. 5200 Super Breakout was designed for the analog sticks even if the original arcade version used a paddle.
54 minutes ago, ledzep said:In fact, I'm curious if you can do that. Can you evaluate a home arcade port compared to the arcade original that inspired it in terms of how perfectly or near perfectly it brings an actual arcade experience home? Yes or no? Can't wait for you to pretend I never asked this.
Again you're not understanding my point. My point was never about the arcade experience but about your 5200 controls for Super Breakout comment. What Atari did in 1982 was pretty amazing because you had a controller that could play both paddle games and standard. Intellivision or Colecovision and the 2600 couldn't do that.
54 minutes ago, ledzep said:Wrong control scheme = wrong in terms of home arcade ports with established control schemes, live with it.
Like what another person said (and I'm repeating myself), the 5200 controllers isn't the wrong scheme. It's just different.
Case in point, when Street Fighter 2 came out on the SNES, it was an amazing game that was ported to play at home. People weren't complaining it was the wrong controller. It was different from the arcade. People learned the new controls. Today, people are playing newer versions on ps or xbox controller at home.
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3 minutes ago, ledzep said:
If you haven't played a specific game in the arcade ever then you are totally unqualified to talk about how well the 5200 port compares to the arcade version...
So now I'm not qualified to talk? lol. Are you moderator? lol
3 minutes ago, ledzep said:For me the analog stick is marginal for playing paddle games like Super Breakout and Kaboom!, it doesn't have as good of control or accuracy. I know this because I have 2 analog joysticks modded to be paddles and I've played both those games with both controllers, the paddle easily wins out and I'm pretty good with 5200 joysticks for playing 5200 games.
I had the stick to paddle conversion I bought from someone a long time ago. It was good, but it felt unnatural. I ultimately resold it. Like you are an arcade purist, I am an atari 5200 purist. The 5200 Super Breakout was like you said "born" and "created" with the analog sticks.
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On 6/27/2023 at 8:56 PM, ledzep said:
All home console controllers that aren't the same as the original arcade controllers are various levels of "bad" the further away they get from the arcade originals when used with the home ports (even if some players can get higher scores with the wrong controllers).
There were no console controllers that were the same as the original arcade. It doesn't mean they are bad, it means they are different. This "various levels" assessment you have created is completely subjective.
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1 hour ago, ledzep said:
No, you are failing to comprehend the conversation. The subject of this thread (which you need to be repeatedly reminded of) is "5200 and the arcade experience", so every comment within this thread is based off that.
But my response to you was not about the arcade experience. My response to you was about the 5200 controls for 5200 Super Breakout.
1 hour ago, ledzep said:"And the arcade experience", which you never experienced (you never played Super Breakout in the arcade so how would you know what to compare to).
No, I did experience playing Super Breakout later as an adult. But not in the 80s. I already mentioned this.
1 hour ago, ledzep said:For Super Breakout, that means paddle, that is by default better precision than any alternative controller for that game as designed for the arcade.
Super Breakout version on the 5200 was never designed for the paddle because there was not paddle available regardless if the arcade had a paddle. Those are two different versions.
1 hour ago, ledzep said:Yes, the analog controller is different than a paddle and not bad, but compared to the arcade experience (remember that subject line?) any controller other than a paddle (which is what arcade Super Breakout was designed with) is various degrees of wrong, with a spinner being the closest to a paddle, when playing a home console port of Super Breakout.
So not only is the 5200 controller "wrong" and "bad", there are various degrees? Interesting rating system....all which is subjective.
1 hour ago, ledzep said:Not a high horse, simple fact when comparing original arcade controllers to whatever the 5200 offers when discussing, wait for it... the 5200 and the arcade experience.
Again, my response was not about in comparison to the 5200 to the arcade in the arcade experience. I'm commenting on the 5200 controls. Do you not understand? You're allowed to make a comment that is a sub topic from the main topic.
You said the 5200 controls are "wrong" and "bad" for Super Breakout and that is completely your opinion even when compared to the arcade experience. One can say it's not original or different but to say it's wrong or bad is off.
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28 minutes ago, ledzep said:
When discussing only 5200 games and nothing else, sure. When discussing the 5200 and the arcade experience, no. Nice try, though.
I never compared the 5200 Super Breakout to the arcade because in that time, I never had played the arcade. I played the arcade when I was older.
28 minutes ago, ledzep said:I'm starting to think you don't understand the concept of "arcade experience" as laid out in the OP's original post.
My first comment regarding your initial post was about the 5200 controls for Super Breakout. That's it.
Part of why I reply about the 5200 controls subject (not just your posts) is because people just automatically think the controls are bad and don't work. It's given the 5200 a bad reputation for years. You see all kinds of YouTube videos dogging the 5200 because of the controls. Yes, the 5200 controls are unreliable but that's been resolved. And they do work well for Super Breakout.
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Everything working good on proto 2. Thanks again!
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On 3/5/2022 at 5:15 PM, Ryan Witmer said:
Keypad overlays, guys. For real!
Ryan, had a chance to play Intellidiscs with my son. First time to play 2 player mode. It's a lot of fun. Thanks for including that option in the game.
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On 6/24/2023 at 4:08 AM, ledzep said:
A simple rule for me is the arcade game (whatever game you choose) has the best/correct controls because that's what it was born with and was designed for.
With this logic, you can say 5200 Super Breakout (which is a different version than the arcade or any version in its time) has the best controls using the analog sticks because that is what this version was born with and designed for.
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On 6/27/2023 at 8:56 PM, ledzep said:
Nobody is disputing which is better, arcade vs 5200 (I love them both).
I'm quoting what you said in that "nothing is better than the arcade" which is an opinion. You're contradicting yourself.
On 6/27/2023 at 8:56 PM, ledzep said:I know for a fact that once I got my modded 5200 paddle controllers that I got much higher scores on both Super Breakout and Kaboom!, how does that affect your personal experience? It doesn't. Nobody cares about your (or my) best scores, the subject is "5200 and the arcade experience".
Again, that is your experience. Good for you. I'm not disputing that. I grew up on both 2600 paddles and the 5200 controllers give me higher scores on Breakout because they feel better precision for me.
To say that "The 2600 had even better precision" applies to you. To say the paddles on the 5200 applies to you. That's not my experience. My original comment was in response to your comment the 5200 controllers are bad.
On 6/27/2023 at 8:56 PM, ledzep said:The 5200 controllers are "bad" when considering the arcade experience...
Now you say the 5200 controllers are bad when your considering the arcade experience? Like another posted said, it's different. It's not bad. You have a weird definition of "bad."
You also said the 5200 controllers where "bad" because they are using the wrong controller for Super Breakout? lol. With that logic, what could you say about every game on home consoles in the 80's. Flawed thinking.
On 6/27/2023 at 8:56 PM, ledzep said:Analog joysticks ain't paddles. They're better than digital joysticks, ok, but that only gets the experience closer, not exact.
When did I say the analog sticks are paddles? Why are you even bringing up digital sticks?
If I like the 5200 sticks for Super Breakout and they are more precise than the paddles, that's my opinion. I don't care what you think.
You said, "there is no such thing as a different controller being better than the original, get it?" I completely disagree and many would disagree too. It's different. Everyone has their own tastes in controls and if I prefer the 5200 sticks for Super Breakout, that's my choice.
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On 6/26/2023 at 9:11 AM, baktra said:
This is v1.2proto1
It offers three dead zone sizes, you can choose the size by selecting the menu item and pressing the primary fire button.
Let me know how the game plays.
This is cool! Thanks again for your time and effort!
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22 minutes ago, ledzep said:
In terms of the "arcade experience" (look up at the top of this thread, that's the title), nothing is better than the arcade version.
Again, I'm not disputing which is better arcade vs 5200. We're talking about the controls. You said they were bad controls. They are not.
To say "nothing is better than the arcade" with any game is still an opinion.
22 minutes ago, ledzep said:What are you talking about? The 2600 had even better precision...
Again, that is an opinion. I grew up on both and the 5200 controllers give me higher scores because they feel better precision for me.
22 minutes ago, ledzep said:So are you saying if somebody else gets a higher score in 5200 Super Breakout using a trak-ball that your declaration that the analog joystick is the best controller for Super Breakout no longer is true?
5200 Super Breakout was made for the analog sticks and 5200 track ball which are both exclusive 5200 controls for the 5200.
22 minutes ago, ledzep said:"Bad" doesn't mean you can't attain great scores, "bad" means incorrect controller.
So the 5200 controllers are "bad" because they are using the wrong controller for Super Breakout? lol. We might as well call all kinds of controllers "bad" (i.e., intellivision, etc) because they are the "wrong controller." Your logic is flawed.
22 minutes ago, ledzep said:It was another example of the correct control scheme for the arcade version of a game, a concept that again went completely over your head. Ya, the 5200 had an advantage with 2 fire buttons, that made it more true to the arcade version. But it's not the same controller so even if you can score higher on 5200 Defender with an analog joystick, that doesn't make that controller the best for that game in terms of the arcade experience.
Again, I'm not debating about the controllers giving us the exact arcade experience. You said the controllers were "bad" for Super Breakout. You also said it was bad because they are the wrong controllers. lol It's all your opinion.
22 minutes ago, ledzep said:Yes we are talking about accurate to the arcade, it's in the fucking title of the thread.
So now you swearing. Go back to my posts. I'm talking about 5200 controls. People like you just say the controllers are "bad" and "wrong" when I see them differently.
22 minutes ago, ledzep said:There is no such thing as a different controller being better than the original, get it?
Yes, there is such a thing. I don't even need to explain this one.
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5 minutes ago, christo930 said:
What I actually said
What I meant by the above is that introducing a new 8 bit system, especially one with chips from the 70s was not a viable new platform and had little chance of success.
The Atari 8-bit line was kind of exciting in 1979. It wasn't so exciting in 1987. .
For sure in the hardware dept. I will say there were some great 8bit games though in that era. Then again, I wondered as a kid why many games were not ported to the 8bit line though...which is a different story.
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11 hours ago, ledzep said:
That's what the original version (arcade) was designed with, that's the best version. Period.
Like what I mentioned before, I never saw Super Breakout in the 80s. I played it many years afterwards. To say the arcade version is the "best version" is your opinion. That is not a fact. I like the 5200 Super Breakout better.
11 hours ago, ledzep said:5200 Super Breakout was adapted to the 5200 based on the hardware at hand, Breakout already existed before the 5200 was made. I assume it also plays with the Trak-ball, yes?
This 5200 Super Breakout version was exclusive to this system and program to work for analog sticks and 5200 track ball. No other console had the precision of these two exclusive cotrols.
11 hours ago, ledzep said:Compared to paddles, which are the controllers that Breakout was designed for, joysticks are "bad".
Again I disagree. That's a myth. You can't claim the 5200 controls are "bad" even compared to a paddle, when people are attaining records and high scores on Super Breakout.
11 hours ago, ledzep said:The best controller for attaining the most accurate arcade experience for the home console port is not.
I'm not talking about arcade experience. Our conversation has been about the 5200 controllers.
11 hours ago, ledzep said:If you want the most accurate conversion for Defender then you should have a 2-way digital joystick (up and down only) and 4 buttons (reverse, thrust, fire and smart bomb) with the joystick on the left (2 hands mandatory). Period.
First of all, nobody here was bringing up Defender. Since you brought up Defender, the 5200 sticks are the only sticks in that era that could fire and press the smart bomb in one hand.
11 hours ago, ledzep said:But it's not what the arcade version uses. That's why I was saying that if the 5200 version has a setting for digital (constant speed) joystick then that would be more accurate and a better port. If it doesn't, so what, not the end of the world, still a very fun game, but it's not the "arcade experience" and arcade experience is what separates the good ports from the great ports. lol/
Accurate to the arcade? That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about the design of the game and how the game uses an analog stick. I'm not disputing arcade accuracy or the "arcade experience." You changing the subject.
11 hours ago, ledzep said:If I remember correctly the 5200 Galaxian also allows you to shoot more shots than the arcade version, in the arcade you're only allowed to have one shot on the screen at a time no matter how often you hit the fire button (hit something or wait for the shot to cross the top of the screen). Much harder, really affects the strategy. But that's actual arcade Galaxian, not whatever hybrid the 5200 is, regardless of your high scores.
Here again I'm not debating the differences between the arcade and 5200 accuracy. We're talking about the controllers. The 5200 version is unique because of the speed of the game and the use of analog controls.
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3 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:
Thing is, by omitting the PBI / ECI interface from the XEGS' design, they removed one of the XL & XE computer lines' major advantages. Granted, it's one that didn't see a whole lot of use, but it's one that really should have been there if full compatibility was the goal.
The one thing I don't accept about that decision was that it was a cost reduction move. Designing, engineering, and manufacturing the machine to have a separate keyboard would have eliminated any savings from not including the PBI as part of the design. And, as the keyboard was always included with the console, it's not like it was an optional peripheral geared towards later expansion of the system, so it would always be an embedded cost.
At the time, I really didn't know why Atari even bothered with this computer/console.
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1 hour ago, christo930 said:
Which failed miserably.
Yes, but you said there were no new 8bit systems at the time. And the XE Game System was new in 1987.
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1 hour ago, christo930 said:
1987, I know the existing 8 bit systems were still around and being supported with new software and some hardware too. But I mean a new 8 bit computer system released in 1987, at least not in the US. Japan had the MSX2, but it was an expanded existing system.
The XE game system was released in 1987 which is basically an XE computer and Atari's way to expand the 8bit.
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14 hours ago, christo930 said:
Worse, that you're lying and don't really like the game and that you really suck at it?
I wouldn't be wasting my time writing about Super Breakout if I didn't like the game. I definitely do suck at it. lol.
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4 hours ago, christo930 said:
The 8 bit run of home computers was done at this point, at least in the US. The existing ones hung on a few more years, but no new 8 bit systems were viable.
I'm not sure which time frame you're talking about but there was still many 8bit users into late 80s to early 90s in the US. I attended Atari user groups up into in the early 90s and there were a lot more 8bit users than ST owners at the meet ups.
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19 hours ago, ledzep said:
Oh sure, players can like/prefer whatever is their favorite. That's got nothing to do with how the game is supposed to be played. It's not an opinion, Breakout was designed to be played with a paddle. Not even a Tempest style spinner (though that works almost as well), but a paddle -
Not in my mind in 82. I've never seen a Super Breakout machine. 5200 Super Breakout was designed and configured for the 5200 console. 5200 Super Breakout is technically not the same game. There are also differences between the arcade and the 5200.
19 hours ago, ledzep said:Never said the 5200 analog sticks were inaccurate, that's you putting words in my mouth...
You said the controllers were "bad" controllers.
19 hours ago, ledzep said:You could grow up using a digital joystick and be good at Breakout using that, wouldn't change what the best controller for the game actually is.
Again, the best controller is subjective. You're stating your opinion which I don't agree.
19 hours ago, ledzep said:A digital stick (2-way, yes?) is the intended controller for Galaxian, so that will always be the most accurate to the arcade version.
Again, you're bringing up the arcade Galaxian. I said the 5200 Galaxian. You're post is showing you don't know the difference between the arcade and 5200 Galaxian. 5200 Galaxian was made for the analog 5200 sticks because you can go fast and slow going left and right. I have two of the Atari Age Galaxian records. Go break them using your digital sticks and share your video and I'll send you a 2 cases of beer. lol/
19 hours ago, ledzep said:Accuracy and authenticity matters, that's what separates the good ports from the great ones.
You're not supposed to be able to move faster or slower, only at one speed side to side, it adds to the tension when the enemies are closing in. So if the 5200 version doesn't take advantage of the analog stick's variable speed (I can't remember), great. If it does, it's a different game. You may like it better that way, but that ain't Galaxian. Lol.
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11 hours ago, baktra said:
Thank you for playing. I actually originally released the game for the 8-bit computer line. I decided to port it to 5200 later. I had to make some compromises, i.e. remove the in-game music, but it still plays well. I am planning one more update - configurable joystick dead zone.
Yeah, it's a fun game. I'm actually good at using the 5200 sticks and was able to play decent but a dead zone would be perfect. Thanks again for your work!
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Just received my RetroGameBoyz keypad adapter combo for using DB9 controllers
in Atari 5200
Posted
I use the original sticks 99% of the time. I think the adapter for 2600 sticks are good for those people that can't work with the 5200 sticks.
There's only one game I use using an adapter and that is 5200 Pitfall.