phuzaxeman

you learn it, and you won't put the game down as long as you own your lynx :-)

atari jaguar vs N64? we know the n64 came out later, but both systems are the last of the cartridge systems and both are 64bit. also, both systems had their share of programming issues. how does the jag stack up?

a great pianist on a ok piano will always be better than a great piano played by a poor pianist. that's how i see the jaguar at times. great potential hardware but a lack of great games. neo geo was an amazing system for its quality titles.

Actually I don't think i'd entirelu agree here.. the very fact that there are very few constraints on the movement of spaceships CAN (butrt not neccessarily will) make control of objects easier than in a problematic land based or indoor environment, in which there are complex paths and obstacles to take into account. These kind of environments provide not only considerably greater concerns for rendering and collision detection but can also require complex AI to not only affect the player but also handle a much more complex environment than empty space. (Edit:And i'm not meaning this as a judgement call on any specific game's AI.) Obviously the cases vary very greatly from game to game.. so whilst a land based 3d engine is significantly more complicated.. i'd say that the AI can't be conclusively stated to be universally harder in one type of game. that's actually a great point that makes a lot of sense. there are actually more variables when you start adding a more complex environment than just outer space.... No becaue land is land and it is what it is.. You can easily set up mapping tables for all that information...it's not so simple........emptiness is not nothingness...We are talking not just outer space but outer space vehicles and those physics and then just those pilots alone are friggin incredible. I'll take a landscape anyday over space flight as far as coding is concerned. wouldn't outer space vehicles, those physics, pilots, above a landscape that includes both air and land battles would seem more complex that just an outer space battle alone?

Actually I don't think i'd entirelu agree here.. the very fact that there are very few constraints on the movement of spaceships CAN (butrt not neccessarily will) make control of objects easier than in a problematic land based or indoor environment, in which there are complex paths and obstacles to take into account. These kind of environments provide not only considerably greater concerns for rendering and collision detection but can also require complex AI to not only affect the player but also handle a much more complex environment than empty space. (Edit:And i'm not meaning this as a judgement call on any specific game's AI.) Obviously the cases vary very greatly from game to game.. so whilst a land based 3d engine is significantly more complicated.. i'd say that the AI can't be conclusively stated to be universally harder in one type of game. that's actually a great point that makes a lot of sense. there are actually more variables when you start adding a more complex environment than just outer space....

one of the best games on the lynx. from multiplayer, to solo, different events, to music, to graphics, this game is a winner. footbag is fun only when you know how to get a high score. i find bmx hard and frustrating at times. the control on the games are amazing too. to have CG as deep as alpine games would be amazing....

"...They (dreamcast/ps2 games) are more advance in a lot of ways but not the AI...they may come close but I dout it. I have played a good deal of the DC games having renetd jsut about all of them and they are all very impressive but they dont even need the kind of level of AI that BS is pulling off..." i don't know...i'm still not sold about AI in battlespere taking the AI in grand theft auto, half life, and conflict zone to name a few. saying they (dreamcast and early ps2 games) "come close" and that you "doubt" it still doesn't provide ample ground....those games i mentioned seemed just way more complexed in terms of AI on a dreamcast and ps2 (early titles). but hey, that's my (noncomputer literate) opinion....

i think (correct me if i'm wrong) that when you get to some of the newer generation systems then, it's the programmers/designers rather than the hardware that limits AI. i get what you're saying about battlesphere and it's AI and difficulty/smartness. you also have explained to me how AI plays into gameplay in a game, as opposed to graphics/sound.... to me, though, a game like half life (import) on my dreamcast is pretty amazing. when you attack an enemy, it would run or take cover and not walk at you....it would actually react to your playing and do things to adapt to your strategy like halo. halo and half life are actually similar in some ways.... conflict zone also uses a great scheme in which each commander has his own personality and skill level...some commanders are respected by their troops and some are shunned by them. there's a lot of AI smartness in the game and also was ahead of its time when it was released because of its AI capabilties. also, there's a strange but unique AI simulation called seaman on the dreamcast which uses AI and voice recognition technology...you talk to this virtual fish and it ask you questions back. there's a part when the fish looks randomly at your memory card and says, "i see you like to play sport games" or "shoot em up games." you have to nurture and make the fish comfortable so it gets to know you. the creature needs to be nurtured even when your dreamcast is off....so you need to check back every so often......really ground breaking for a 99 release. you need to use a mic attachment to interact too...i think the sim is creepy but interesting. the AI use in the grand theft auto world is also amazing.... for example, if you try stealing a taxi, the guy in the car talks to you and you may take the job or not. the AI in GTA can give you a lot of tension with AI in the characters in the game interacting and adpating to what you're doing in the game. i won't deny the AI in battlespere (free for all is still my fav) but these games i mentioned seem to me more advanced and could never be done on a jaguar in terms of strictly AI.

I just told you that Scott Legrand, the coder of the BS said so. If that is not proff enough and playing the games is not enough then Im out of options. Look, I can understand that when you LOOK at a game and see all the pretty stuff going on and more polies and all you might think it is smarter...its not. Graphics and game content do not lend themselves well to measuring AI and game logic. They might help but not much. How do you want me to prove it to you if you can't see for yourself. You have all these games go and play them. The only way I could prove it tangebly out side of this is to show you the code. I doubt very much anyone is going to cough up their IP info to me just so I can prove it to you . The only other way is to write test benchmark software and run and tests. How can I do any of that? I can not legally show you source form something that is A ) not mine B ) I dont have C ) would not really 'prove ' it anyway if you don't understand code. Artificial intellegence is shown through game play. None of the games you mention even come close to the computations going on in BattleSphere. It's not something I can easily prove like you are asking. I can tell you the Pilots alone are doing more than any character in any of those games. If you really took the time to play these games along side BS, I bet you will eventualy see just how incredibly intellegent BS is compared to any of them. Asking me to prove AI levels is like asking me to prove God's exsistance. There is no post sized answer.. You think some of my posts are long winded now...sheesh! I trying to think of a way to prove it to you other than obsevance as that is the only wy I can think of out side of showing the code to both. It's like asking me to show you my intellegence against someone elses...not something a post of a single event could fairly do. FootBall is a set of predetermined rules....IT's look up tables with decision making. Fighters are a little closer as some of them do 'learn' as you play but not on the fly as Battle Sphere does. I wish there were something tangible come up with something to show you. Give me time. Im not saying these things to condesend or put down but to educate. What game is higher in AI...... A ) Pac Man or Lady Bug Hard to say...probably close. B ) Phoenix or Gyruss Phoenix...Gyruss with all those patters, are just that patterninzed movement. Phoenix is completely random and based of the movement of the player. C ) CyberMorph or BattleMorph BattleMorph...you can see it in the way the enemies attack you . Ai is the smartness of the enemies. I have yet to see enemies as smart as those in BS on any system before the DC or Xbox. The DC can easily out class but what games show it. it still doesn't concretely answer the question (respectively you said you'd explain later). one of the great things about the sega DC sport games was that the AI was smarter (than previos consoles) so you couldn't do the same moves. also, you could add to the list all the PS2 games released in 2001 that were released before halo on the xbox (red faction {geo mod technology}, final fantasy X {japan version release}, silent hill 2, etc). i still don't see how a n64 (goldeneye) , dreamcast (unreal tournament for example), and a ps2 (early 2001 titles prior to halo) would be outclassed by battlesphere's AI/game logic. saying scott said so isn't really concrete info.

Gorf says, "BattlesSphere has out classed every systems games until Xbox Halo in terms of AI and game logic." phuzaxeman asks, "prove to me (and everyone else reading) then how battlesphere AI/game logic is better than goldeneye and rogue squadron N64, madden05 playstation, powerstone 2/shenmue/skies of arcadia (dreamcast) since all of them are games from systems released before the Xbox Halo." Gorf responds, "how am I supposed to prove that to you? Why would I waste my time? You dont belive me now. You wont even believe Thguy who coded BS and has coded for PS1 and all systems afterward." -------------------------------------------------- you've backed up every thing you've said in every topic in this jaguar forum from what i've read so please explain to all of us (even us computer challenged people) how battlesphere AI/game logic has outclassed all games like goldeneye and rogue squadron N64, madden05 playstation, powerstone 2/shenmue/skies of arcadia (dreamcast) since all of them are games from systems released before the Xbox Halo. i've learned a lot from your posts and want to understand your claim (especially system games on the n64 and dreamcast).

it was one of the only :-) i don't remember seeing a jag commercial ever during that time....

Gorf says, "BattlesSphere has out classed every systems games until Xbox Halo in terms of AI and game logic." i couldn't mention a game because i wouldn't even know how to compare them and prove it. i'm not knowledgeable. i admit that. even if a game on the ps1 had more "AI" or "game logic" than the jag, i wouldn't have a clue on how to claim that. i do know that every system before xbox halo includes over 7500 titles on the ps1, all titles on n64, and all titles on the dreamcast. prove to me (and everyone else reading) then how battlesphere AI/game logic is better than goldeneye and rogue squadron N64, madden05 playstation, powerstone 2/shenmue/skies of arcadia (dreamcast) since all of them are games from systems released before the Xbox Halo. you say how better the jag in your own terms is better than the 3DO, PS1, and how "battlesSphere has out classed every systems games until Xbox Halo in terms of AI and game logic." you keep going up on generations of how the jag can out class each system one way or another....what's next? ps2 or ps3? xbox360? :-)

thats alot of lynx's...do you know how many jaguars sold?

Battle Sphere is all the proof I need to show the weakness of PS1 AI abilities. and.... Um no...I have 29+ years of programming experience not jargon. You can believe your fantasy the RPG's are some god like example of AI and that the PS1 is some how perfect in every aspect of its hardware if you want but you are wrong. BattlesSphere has out classed every systems games until Xbox Halo in terms of AI and game logic. If you had played it you 'd know exactly what I am talking about. You can pick on the shit game that TM is but I already did that for you so , that point is lost and not even relevent to why I compared it. The point was PS1 will never move 24 bit color sprites anywher near what the Jaguar can do The PS1 uses 4096 8 x8 sprites ...you can't change the size or the color depth or any of that. The Jagur also uses TRUE 24 bit color and writes TRUE 24 bit color values and does NOT display a fake RGB 16 interpolated 24 bit color like the PS1 And it still blows away AI and game logic in ANY PS1 title you can name. And you have'nt yet named that title, Why? Because there is none and never will be. The PS1 is not able. It can't take one processor and out do three processors in parallel. IF common sense does not tell you that, nothing will. I base my arguments on facts not fanatisism like you suggest. You can go and look at the specs of both systems if you want but you first might want to have an understanding about system design. I doubt you do or you would not be arguing with me right now. No I dont love every game on the Jaguar..there is about ten tops..the rest are a joke and I have said this. You completely once again have entiely missed the piont and go back to the useless 'taste in games' argument. Yeah you made that quite clear. Experience obviously means nothing to you. Again you are mistaken and arguing poly counts which I was clear that the PS1 has the advantage. Fighters and reacers like the ones you mention are no where near the class of AI and game logic going on in BattleSphere. they dont need to be and they could not be becasue the PS1 has only 1 procesor capable of doing math. The R3K. Saturn will do it before the PS1 will..Saturn has 3 processors that can do math in it as well. Its the facts my friend, not fan boyism as much as you'd like to believe. Then forgive me as Im sorry for confusing you with facts and reality. Caring what you care about , does not make it any less true. This was never an argument about game selection. This is an argument about exsisting titles and how they prove my point about Game AI.. I only need one...BattleSphere...its AI and game logic DOES blow away any Saturn or PS1 can ever hope to do...the saturn will do it better than the PS1 becasue it has more tha one processor thatn can do AI and math. The Jaguar has 3 and the PS1 only has one. It is computationally impossible for PS1 to do BattleSphere on the same level of game logic and AI as on the Jaguar. All you need to do is Ask Scott Legrand. He coded it and he would know and ahs told me as much. Jag will never out do Saturn or Ps1 in polycount but it absolutely toast them both in math and game logic. These are facts, not feeling but one you can actually go look up and read for yourself. first off...u don't need to swear in a post to get a point across.....:-) nor do i have the knowledge like you to compare the AI schemes among jaguar games to ps1 games. it's apparent you're losing your cool.... i do have to say (and many others agree) that the 3DO looks like a better system in game comparisons. to even compare a ps1 is even a longer stretch. i don't see it (and many people think like me). even if math wise the jag can do more computations or whatever, the games on the jag don't show anything to help the system so in essence it doesn't matter because most, if not all the jag games aren't in the level of the 1st generation of playstation games. let me reiterate again that i own battlespere. you think a programmer couldn't do battlesphere on a ps1 today? from the games i've played on the ps1, i think they could make it better AI and all! :-p could the jag pull of a madden, tekken 3, resident evil, gran turismo2, street fighter ex? from making club drive to grand turismo? ultra vortek to tekken 3 or street fighter ex? no way man.... "BattlesSphere has out classed every systems games until Xbox Halo in terms of AI and game logic." ok prove it? i've played both halo and i own battlespere. in the grand scheme of things, if the jag was more powerful (polygons/framerate/processor), had better sound, better in every respect from a hardware perspective it wouldn't matter because it was never fully used, never will, never ever. i think it was people that kept claiming the power of the jag rather than focusing on marketing and making great games that killed the jag and atari in end....

does anyone know the number of lynx's sold?

there aint no replacement for nostalgia... :-)

I'll second that, it's true BattleSphere has VERY impressive & fierce AI. I can't even complete the 20 training missions and I play at least 4 times a week for hours. It changes it's tactics to defend your playing style and LEARNS to overcome everything you attempt to do to clear the targets. This forces you to think and come up with new and different strategies to simply stay alive much less go on the offensive. The AI in the enemy ships will hunt you down like an animal and kill you with a shot to the back of the head - and you may not even see it happening on the radar. This really makes the game come alive and takes some serious dedication and thought to compete. Halo is probably the first title that owned Scott's AI. It's a shame BS was not more available. If more Jaguar owners played that game networked, they'd understand fully what I've been trying to say with all these 'this vs that ' crap. I think these arguments are just plain stupid. PS1 could have been designed to blow away the Jaguar with 1000 times the polygons but I still never like the systemor the games on it with some few exceptions. I 'll take a 2600 anyday over both these systems if you want my real opinion. It's about the fun factor in the games. PS1 neer did it for me and the Jaguar lacks tons of updated classics but at least has a couple. Let look at the bus rate of each system... PS1 132 megs a second across its bus.The PS1 has the tools to take advantage of this bus. The Jaguar does not. Have fun coding everything in assembler. I do but most coders don't.... ...understandably. Jaguar 106 megs a second across its bus. That is only 26 less megs. It's not insignificant but it's not overwelming either. I'll never claim the Jaguar is a faster poly pusher than the PS1, cleaner more flexible, yes but it will not throw up as many poiles in a frame in a game as PS1 will. The true is opposite for computational ability. The MIPSR3K is a deadly processors in its own right but there is no way it's going to compete with 3 processors working together. The R3K has to do everything. Yes the Sony has other processors but they need direction from the only CPU. The R3K has to have control over everything. It's just a lot less to think about when coding for it and is why the machine is a dream to code for. You have a matrix engine which does all the work of 3D calculations and very little work on the programmer. This is the monster in the PS1. This makes the difference between heaven and hell to a coder. This does all the stuff a Jaguar coder does by hand automatically. This is exactly why a lot of Jaguar games suck...tools to make this process less hellish never exsisted. The 3D hardware in PS1 is indeed its saving grace. That matrix engine is awsome. Its a dream come true in 3D coding. A little more silicon in the Jaguar and it could have faked something like this...ie making it a lot simpler to code the Jaguar matrix hardware which lacks the control registers to allow it to run unassited. The thing that makes me laugh is the data compression engine. This is supposed to be 80 mips of CD spooling and decompressing power. The PS1 easily has some of the worst and most aggrivating load times I've ever experinced. The Jaguar is faster at loading then it is and the GPU is a killer compressor/decompressor. Disc acess goes to Jaguar hands down. The 2D sprite engine is not all that impressive. The Jaguar wins here. The Jaguar is by far the most flexible 2D system. It has a Blitter but the real 2D monster is the OPL that can generate any size and color depth window and as many as the memory can hold. I know the game play sucks but Trevor Mc Fur as a graphical demo would put a hurting on the PS1. Networking: Most systems slow down when you add more clients in a networked game and eventually choke. The Jaguar actually works faster...don't ask me how they did it but it's pure genius. It is a shame that BS is the only game worth mentioning as far as networking goes. DOOM is fine but only two player and errors. Air Cars? Give me a break....what a waste of Scatologic's network code hat was. The Jaguar could have reigned supreme here if Sam tramiel did not say 'Yuk, yuk, yuk.' when asked his opinion about them. why did he allow silicon to bewasted on the Uart then? And BS uses the 68k...how they pull it off with out killing the bus is amazing. Theoretically the 68k running is fine as long as The GPU is running locally The DSP is running locally No blitting or OPL use So the 68k, if set to run while the above conditions are true, will not slow the bus at all as nothing else is using it. So the GPU/DSP and 68k can run in parallel before the frame is drawn( when you would then use the Blitter and OPL to draw the frame) and there would be no bottlenecking. That means about 40-50 MIPS of computational power with built in matrix math hardware and MAC's (multpily and accumulate instructions.) Sorry guys, the PS1 dont stand a chance as far as AI and math go. Wow....hmmmmm...now I need to run a few experiments.....Im just realizing the kind of balls we are talking about. sorry bro..you got the programing jargon to back up your claims but no software to prove your claims that the jaguar, in terms of graphics, sound, ai, whatever is superior to a ps1. "trevor" hurting ps1? if trevor mccrap has to be even mentioned in a comparision to any decent title on a playstation, you've already lost your case. battlesphere? 1 game? how many years to make? cost? i would hope all the money i spent and time i waited it would put up a good fight to a ps1 game...but even that game has limits. i'm not even going to go there. battlesphere owners know some of the limits and small issues with that game. i understand your passion for atari, and i've done my time playing every atari system (not to mention spending almost 3digit figures on battlesphere) over the past 3 decades, but the jag is what is...probably the worst console atari has to offer in terms of good games to bad games and potential not being used....if the jag is your system and you love every game, then no one can take that away and that's all that matters. on the other hand, i could care less about 30 years of programming experience.....looking at the titles of jag games, there aint no way i see a jag all of the sudden doing a game like tekken 3, gran turismo2, fifa soccer, legacy of kain, final fantasy VII....i'm not buying it. i don't care what numbers or computer mumble jumble you throw at me. i'm a huge atari fan and a gamer but i'm also realistic. hardware, software, in the end its all in the games. potential don't mean a darn thing to me....

klax is cool. for me, the klax music in the intro is more beats and a bass line, with some effects rather than melody driven music like shagai or shadow. electrocop i think for has to be the most original soundtrack though....

which game has your favorite tune on the lynx? i vote for shangai.....

....Battle Sphere on the Jaguar alone is beyond anything you've seen on a Playstation. Im not talking graphically. Play 'Alone Against The Empire' and then come back and tell me you still think RPG's hold the market on AI after the pilot in jet packs totally and completely hand you your ass....That games is how old now?.... there were over 7500 titles released on the playstation.....saying the jaguar's battlesphere was beyond anything seen on a playstation is absurd. i'm not buying it. and what's with the name calling? gunstar...are you losing it man? i love the jag like everyone on here but lets stay realistic....

NONE of the Jaguar's fighting games are particularly memorable (unless you count FFL which is memorable for being surprisingly shitty.) Are you slamming the entire FIGHTING genre as a whole because the Jaguar doesn't have any first-rate fighting games or because you just don't like fighting games as a whole? Are Tekken, FFL, Kasumi Ninja, and Ultra Vortex the only fighting games you have ever played? Tekken might not be a particularly "deep" fighting game but it's a hell of a lot better than all of the Jaguars fighting games put together. I'm not slamming ANY fighting games at all, just stating that I'd hardly consider the fighting game genre to have "depth," and this doesn't mean that fighting games are great games, just that they are shallow; an RPG, for example, would be a genre that traditionally has a lot of depth, fighters don't, that's all. I like fighters, and they can have a lot of "variation" but not "depth" in my book. And Jaguar fighters are certainly not the only fighters I've ever played by a long shot. But your assumption that they are all I've played shows YOUR lack of depth. And whether the entire world disagrees with me or not, I DO think Ultra Vortek is a first-rate fighter and every bit as good, to me, as Mortal Kombat series. My favorites are Soul Caliber, Tekken, Ultra Vortek, Samuri Shodown, and the Street Fighter series, and of course the Mortal Kombat series. But I also like others too. no depth and shallow for fighting games as a whole? have you played the career mode on Knockout Kings 2001? Ultra Vortek a 1st rate fighter and just as good as any of the MK series? ok...if that's what you think. i personally think UV is one of the worst and overrrated fighting games of all time but not as bad as fight for life, and kasumi ninja....

NONE of the Jaguar's fighting games are particularly memorable (unless you count FFL which is memorable for being surprisingly shitty.) Are you slamming the entire FIGHTING genre as a whole because the Jaguar doesn't have any first-rate fighting games or because you just don't like fighting games as a whole? Are Tekken, FFL, Kasumi Ninja, and Ultra Vortex the only fighting games you have ever played? Tekken might not be a particularly "deep" fighting game but it's a hell of a lot better than all of the Jaguars fighting games put together. i wouldn't know where to start in terms of fighting games for the jag vs a game like tekken 3 on the playstation....when you talk about breakrhough fighting engine, to graphics, animation, number of character, playabilty, easter eggs, games within game, bonus characters, music/sound, combos, bosses, there's so much to mention in depth and overall gameplay. if you're an avid fan of fighting games, the jags fighting games are some of the worst of all time...yier of the kung fu (c64), karate champ (80's arcade), world karate championship (8bit), karateka (8bit), MK (genesis), punch out (nes), MK II (snes) all are better than the jags fighting games. i so wanted (yeah in 96 when i got it) ultra vortek to be the savior of fighting games on the jag (after owning fight for life, ninja, and bruce lee)....but it didn't happen. if i'm the only one that thinks that about that in jag fighting games, oh well....i guess i'm the minority in here.

my experience in the film industry is limited but most people in the field i've seen use macs. as far as the music industry(which is my field), mac owns the field. i'm not a mac owner or fan btw.

Fact: "The Jaguar does better cleaner texturing and special effects...in hardware Sony cant." sure you can say that. you're a programmer. name me one game on the jag that the sony can't do in terms of texturing and special effects? Fact: "The Jaguar definitely has better sound" why because the jag is not limited to its hardware? fact: most games (if not all on the jag) are barely mixed in stereo let alone surrond sound with poor seperation in the mix (most games are mixed into mono sounding quality). also, the signal output coming from the jags audio is pretty low in DB in comparison to other systems. Fact: "The Jaguar will out do the PS1 at math." unfortunately for the jag, it wasn't able to calculate the number of poor quality titles to good ones....

i've owned every video game system of atari during the times they came out (practically a toddler when atari pong was bought for me by my dad). so i have loyalty toward atari. it all comes down to what you want and if you're having fun with a system. but i'm also a gamer too, and i see what i see. i've learned to enjoy all the other systems that i've owned that are non atari. if you're happy with what you have on your jaguar, then that's the most important thing. for me, i was disappointed of the jag. i still love the system, but being the last console with mostly a bunch of ok games on a system that wasn't used to its potential was frustrating...the lynx has so many great games, i was hoping the jag would too during that time... as far as depth, i was refering to games like gran turismo, tekken series, final fantasy VII, maiden on the psx...there's so much variation and depth in those games compared to the games on the jag. favorite all time systems for me(in no particular order): lynx (how long did it take for technology to overtake this beast?) 5200 (close to lynx in terms good games to bad) dreamcast (love it....this system changed the world of gaming...soul caliber, skies of arcadia, tennis are still great) playstation 2 (can play all the ps1 games...gran turismo 4 is the sh&t. i bought a new car because of this game...sport games are amazing) 2600 (need i say more?) intellivision (snafu, advanced dungeons and dragons, voice synthsis-i love this system too)