goatdan

Even if you assumed that you would get those prices for those games -- and if you can, head to GOAT Store right now and buy me out of them -- you take $180 and take out about 10% for ebay / PayPal fees ($18), then we take out, say, $4 per auction for shipping fees (cheap shipping plus an envelope). You sold 10 items, and paid $40 to ship them (way low). Now, your $180 is $122. While that wouldn't be bad, I figure that as a best case scenario. And, you aren't making any money -- just spending a very small amount for BB2. It's still a good deal.

That is a bit of an unfair comparison, because in the case of Air Raid you are not purchasing a reproduction. Is a photo of the Mona Lisa worth the same as the original? Um, as Willard said way up at the top of the page: "so the initial release will not be reproductions - they will be actual cartridges that were manufactured at Carousel Int'l." So, um, we aren't planning as of right now on reproducing these. We're planning on selling the remaining stock. That we paid actual money to obtain, as well as the rights for the games. Rights which we now legally own. So what does this argument have to do with anything? Hey, look -- I know that you're all for "free love" and whatnot and dumping everything and sharing it, but we're working on making a unique release at a definite monetary risk to ourselves, and I am quite certain that we will be including things that would not be released if it was not for us doing legwork to get the material and paying money to make it happen. You think it's stupid to have to pay money for something like this. So why are you posting about it? Go ahead and make new games, or buy prototypes yourself that you can dump for free and let the world share, or whatever, and don't buy this. It's not for you. I'd rather have the history preserved -- both legally, and more history that we would have *ever* got to see otherwise. I believe that a number of Jaguar fans will feel the same way, and will be happy to participate in purchasing this when the time comes.

Ironically enough, which I also thought was really cool and rather unique for the Jaguar, and I even talked with the fellow who was selling them about the possibility of us carrying at the GOAT Store To be totally fair, the arcade hardware wasn't a very good "what could have become" of the Jaguar platform, as it was far too changed to actually be the platform itself. I have an Area 51 / Maximum Force cabinet (in a Maximum Force, which I like better personally). The hardware in it was really an iteration of the Jaguar hardware that was specifically built for arcade use. The system has an upgraded processor, and perhaps most importantly upgraded RAM and a hard drive that streams a TON of info to the game. The game that it contained was absolutely amazing, and Atari Games really was cranking out great games in the mid to late 90s. Area 51 remained one of the top arcade earners for about 5 years as I recall. But, the Jaguar hardware, even in it's upgraded form, did not provide a good enough platform to continue to use it. I believe that only was used in five games, three of which were unreleased -- Area 51, Maximum Force, Freeze, Fishin' Frenzy, and Vicious Circle. (I don't count Area 51 / Maximum Force as another game.) Supposedly, there is also 3 on 3 Basketball, but I've never seen anything from that game. Which means that the Jaguar hardware in the arcade environment was right to make two of the greatest arcade shooters ever, but couldn't really do much else there either. Compared to the Sega NAOMI board based off the Dreamcast hardware, which there were like 100 games made for that over 9 years, it was clear that the future of the Jaguar hardware would have had to have been in a wholly different form to really make it. The Carousel story is interesting because they were trying not to make a new arcade game to set the world on fire, like a Tempest or a Tekken or a Maximum Force, but instead they were looking for a cheap way to introduce a gameplay mechanic into a type of coin operated machinery that has never traditionally had gameplay in them, period. They didn't need the hardware to be powerful -- the 5 and under crowd who were mostly playing this wouldn't care -- but they wanted their games to stick out amongst the trucks, planes, and trains that just rock back and forth -- so they would attach a simple game to make their machines into the must-ride kiddie rides where ever people went. But then there was another idea -- to theme each game to the locations they were at, to ensure the stores the games were at would showcase the machine. It was a great idea, but as so often happens with great ideas -- something happened. The game made it to the prototyping stage, and after that point it died. And that is a pretty interesting story, I think. I collect arcade machines and am fascinated by them and their history -- I have about probably 40 machines, mostly pins, but a bunch of vids too -- and this is the sort of thing that absolutely fascinates me -- the development history of these games. I love it. I'm sure that some others feel like me. Playing the game gets me to think about the possibilities that could have been in an industry that needs more thinking outside the box. My copy of Skycopter will always hang out here because of that

Mine came in a day or two ago, I guess the elves were a little late with it. No worries! I got a gift certificate, which was actually *perfect* timing. I've cut myself off from new purchases, but I could justify it with the gift certificate! I picked up: PS3 Back to the Future (new) PSP Tactics Ogre (new) PSP PQ2 PSP Smartbomb All for almost exactly $25! Thanks a ton! I have been wanting three of those forever, and Smartbomb just looked fun

Well then, if you bought them knowing full well they were crap, and then you were disappointed in your purchase, I don't know what to tell you. We're not going to go out there and claim these to be the best game released for the Jaguar, but I'm glad that you warned everyone so that no one else will make decisions like you do. Thanks for the public service warning. Tell you what -- I'll help you out. If you're planning on buying one of these when we complete the packages because you expect the gameplay to be superb and live up to the $200+ price tag of the past, then I expect you'll be disappointed when your purchase isn't awesome. Having said that, I don't know of too many collectors who buy really rare games with the expectation of their gameplay living up to the hype. Does Air Raid have enough gameplay for the 2600 to be worth $3000? Do the competition carts for the NES and SNES have enough game play to be worth $250+? If you buy things expecting them to be a neat part of history, and a cool conversation piece, then I think this release will appeal to you. I didn't buy my game a while ago expecting the gameplay to rule, so I can't pretend I've been disappointed by it. And, I knew what I was doing when we went in to purchase the rights to the games. And, I don't think that either the GOAT Store or Beta Phase Games are planning on saying this is our favorite game ever. It's a unique piece of Jaguar history. Don't agree? Then don't buy.

That might be what you think, but it sure isn't how I feel about them. If your mileage varies, I don't really care. I never pretend that each release is for everyone, but for those who are interested in Jaguar history (like a LOT of the collectors who I know are), I think that they will find this very interesting. I guess that you decided to pay a ton of money to buy these hoping they would play better than Tempest 2000 or even Zool 2, and if you did I would suggest looking into your purchases more in the future first. It's definitely not a $200+ game like it has sold for in the past if you're looking for gameplay.

Pit Fighter gets it's reputation because when it was released, if you were in the arcades and playing it at that moment in time, it was absolutely revolutionary. If you weren't, and you got introduced to one-on-one fighters with an overall much better game like Street Fighter II or even Mortal Kombat, it seems like an odd step backward to play Pit Fighter. Pit Fighter is definitely a product of it's time. It wasn't a bad game, it just hit very shortly before the most memorable one-on-one fighting game for gameplay, and the most memorable one-on-one fighting game for digitized characters hit the marketplace. After that point, the world was filled with one-on-one games that did so much more than Pit Fighter did. Does that make it a bad game? No -- but it makes it very hard to enjoy it for what it was.

I've been a Jaguar collector now for about 15 years, and for some reason these always interested me. There are certain unfinished projects that gave the Jaguar this awesome allure, and these were two of them for me. It wasn't like either one was going to set the world on fire, nor save the Jaguar by any stretch, but it's extremely unique for a coin-op company to try to leverage existing hardware to program something in an extremely limited manner. Somehow, somewhere, the decision was made to use the Jaguar as the basis to this very limited game. Then, what is even crazier, somehow Jaguar fans figured out that this was being done -- and honestly, who discovered these the first time? How in the world did that come about? -- but once they were discovered, Jaguar fans started purchasing cartridges from the coin-op manufacturer to have for their own collections. It's like people started getting in on owning a prototype of an arcade machine that may or may not be released. These cartridges aren't by any stretch a great game. But they are am extremely, extremely unique piece of video game history, and that history is what I think gets people to collect for the Jaguar over other consoles -- a lot of really weird, but ultimately really great ideas were hatched on this thing, and this is one of the weirder and more high profile ones. I'll also say this -- I owned one of these carts before we got involved with the purchase of them (turns out, a unique cart too) -- in a very weird way, I helped discover that they existed thanks to the Midwest Gaming Classic about this time last year through a buddy who had unknowingly purchased the rights and inventory from Carousel when they were going out of business. I had never had much interest in owning more than one of them though, because I don't really consider them part of the "core" set. The history though has always fascinated me, and I know that the package that we're working on together now has me really interested in seeing the final product, and I think that a lot of people will be really interested in it. It's not the game, it is the history around the game.

I'll just toss in a quick two cents to note that not just has it been a fascinating time helping to move these forward, but I think that Jaguar fans are really in for quite the treat with the final package. There is still a lot to be worked out, and while I agree that they are not a killer app for the Jaguar, they are one of the interesting little oddities that I think makes the Jaguar as interesting of a console as it is. Keep watching, and sign up for the GOAT Store mailing list and / or the Beta Phase Mailing list and you'll be amongst the first to hear about exactly what these will include and when we will be releasing them. Also, please note -- the copies that were for sale on eBay included boxes that were made to house the cartridges. There was never an official box made for these games, this was something that I believe that owner did specifically for his own carts. In fact, there was never an official label or anything for the carts, as they were planned to be housed inside an arcade unit. I personally don't understand why they are labeled as a 9 on the site, as they are part of a commercial coin operated machine that never made it beyond the prototyping stage, but for a time Carousel did sell cartridges to those who asked them for them, so perhaps that is why. Regardless, it's a fascinating story, and one we're excited to share with Beta Phase Games!

It's VERY difficult for us to do ETAs for international orders because the border can decide to hold things for a while and we have no idea exactly how long it will take. Having said that, I think that I sent your package on the 26th. I am behind on the packages since then because of the holidays, a sick son and wife, and then when I finally got things together, the post office was already closed. Tonight, I'll be making the rest of the packages, and I have a carfull that I'm dropping off tonight, so it should be out very soon if it isn't already... but I don't remember recently making yours so I'm all but certain it was the 26th.

We did our darndest to put these all together and ship them all out the moment we got them in. Oddly, according to the company that assembled the PCBs, I think that their ship date to Tursi was supposed to be right about now, but suddenly at the end of November Tursi got a shipped notice. He rocketed through programming and testing them as fast as can be, and Gary and I spent an entire night together assembling them with the hope we could get a bunch in people's hands before Christmas. Glad to hear that it worked!

I just did this before visiting here. I have owned a 3DS for almost 6 months now, and I'll finally have a few games for it. Oh, and Dream Trigger I picked up about a week ago (my first game) and I think it absolutely sucks. Supposedly, some people really like it, so I think I'll try it again sometime, but it is a WAY more complex than necessary game from what I've seen, and I can't say I care for it at all from the nearly hour I've spent with it. In fact, I wish I could return it. And, I paid less than $9 for it.

So if you buy a skunkboard you don't get a skunkboard? Oh geez, sorry. Late night coupled with early morning means Dan doesn't make any sense today... If you buy a Skunkboard, you don't get Cool Herders any more. You would still get a Skunkboard. Now where's my Mountain Dew?

Every order shipped to this point comes with: Rev 3 Ghost Skunkboard Skunkboard Box Skunkboard Instructions USB Cable (that actually carries data!) And, for pre-ordering, a copy of Cool Herders. We have a few Skunkboards left, but they will no longer come with Skunkboards. We're hoping to keep these in stock for a decent period of time, but we'll see... Gary and I stayed up past midnight last night putting together all the packages. We wanted to surprise people, as the boards came in far faster than was originally anticipated!

Until I just randomly happened across this thread, I had forgotten that I was expecting something. I can't say I'm concerned at all though

Yeah, but my point here is that is a HUGE difference if you're running a business and trying to stay afloat. In the other titles example, you have risk / reward. In the BattleSphere example, you have risk without reward. If companies ran on the basis of only risk with no reward, they wouldn't be in business long. All it would take is a couple bad projects to totally sink you. As it is, having a couple bad projects can sink a lot of companies, but with the potential to make money, you put your successes against your losses. I heard something like 90% of the video games released lose money. It's the other 10% that make up for those 90%, or we'd see a HECK of a lot less games. In other words, my point is simply that yeah, it's one difference and only one difference. It is also, if you are a company, the *most important* difference. I don't know why you're calling it my theoretical alternate history where I would've released Battlesphere. I gave you an example of how big of a risk releasing BattleSphere would have been to a company as it was, and I compared it to a project I just recently did to try to highlight the amount of risk there is. When BattleSphere was completed, I don't even think the GOAT Store existed, so in no way could I have pulled thousands of dollars out of my butt to randomly produce the game, nor do I think they would have wanted me to, being completely unknown at the time. They were looking for a potentially known entity to take the risk away from them in the release, but they didn't (and I believe couldn't) have the carrot of any potential reward to split as an incentive. I don't know what there is to debate about it -- I'm not suggesting anything about the BattleSphere release was done wrong. I was just comparing it to a real world release that I participated in, and how risk was balanced with a potential (very) minor reward so we weren't just losing our butts. It can be done, but companies that are in business to be in business aren't going to take on a huge risk for no reward. That's it. If since that original point when BattleSphere was released, Thunderbird was talking about re-running it with another company doing it, I missed all of that. I would love to talk about it with him if he was still interested and wanted to talk about doing it. But, I have never claimed that we are in business to make money. If we were, we would've quit this 10 years ago.

This is very off topic, and really you’re trying to convince the wrong person, but hey this is the Jag forum I think you are missing the fundamental point that these “other release groups” released their own games in the exact same manner that Scatologic wanted them to release Battlesphere. Not only that, but it was the profits, not the revenues that went to charity. Therefore even if you only sold 60 of 100 copies or so you still break even. The issue is that Scatologic wanted the producer to subsidize the cost to a degree (i.e. not get paid for their time so they take a net loss if you want to look at it that way). I'm not missing any fundamental points. My point is simply this: When BattleSphere was a completely unknown entity, committing to a production run of XXX copies would have been a HUGE financial outlay. God forbid the game bombs, and you can't move those copies. Let's say you make 200 copies at $50 apiece, and are selling them for $75 apiece. That's an initial outlay of $10k. Only 50 of them sell. You make back $3750 on them relatively quickly. After that point, you have to start to lower the price to get them to move. You would risk being out a lot of money for a lengthy period of time. As a "for instance", when we went to do the Skunkboard Rev 3 run, we did a large pre-order window because we had no idea exactly what the market was. Even with all the pre-order money that we had, we had to outlay multiple thousands of dollars to complete the first run, and hope that there was enough demand that extended beyond the initial pre-order sales that we would one day make our money back. As I recall, Scatologic did not do a pre-order including payment method for BattleSphere. Even if they had 500 people signed up to order, that doesn't guarantee sales once the product arrives. Finally, even if you're just talking profit going to charity, there are a lot of things that can happen with a project once you start it that can change the game considerably. I give to you exhibit one being the Skunkboards, which because of a chip going out of stock that was listed as in stock and ready to ship when we placed our order, we were delayed in over nine months of production time, and we had to outlay extra money for items we weren't expected -- and, had we not been able to obtain these chips, we were potentially out thousands of dollars with no hope of recovery. The people who pre-ordered the Skunkboards in the initial window bought them *cheaper than it cost us to produce them*. That sort of thing happens, so if you have a totally unknown project like what BattleSphere was, it is a HUGE risk to do something major like that. At the end of the day, it's up to the people at Scatologic to decide what they want to do with their game property, and not anyone else. Also, it really isn't that difficult to get a place to manufacture their own PCBs in bulk. I could probably guarantee you that those companies don't have their own production facilities, and instead rely on getting their boards done through other manufacturers. This is all well and good, but at the end of the day, anyone with the knowledge of what they are doing could start a production run of a PCB board. And like I said, this is off topic from TRF itself, but I think it is heavily related to a release like that -- no matter what, both releases could not be done legally at this point in time, period. If the rights were acquired on either of them in a legal way, it could be a significant risk. If some idiot wants to just start pumping out unlicensed copies, I want nothing to do with it. I'd love to help with either project if those involved to this point are interested, but ultimately the properties are currently their respective owner's games. If someone goes and starts producing these on their own and they are making a profit, I believe they are a first class idiot. But, in both cases, I don't see either game ever having another production run without there being some sort of money involved, and I'll again pledge my money to any legal release of either game again. I'd love to do a nice network of Battlesphere, and I'd love to play even the half-baked version of TRF to see what all the fuss was about.

Although this is a bit off topic, I think it isn't that far off topic... There is a huge difference between fronting the cash to make a large run of products that may not ever sell out, and fronting the cash to make a product which is ridiculously in demand. In the case of Battlesphere, I am positive that the demand outweighs the risk considerably. I find it hard to believe that this was the proposal and no one took them up on it. If I had seen it, I would have definitely spoke at length with them about the possibility of doing it, and all of the proceeds going to charity wouldn't have phased me at all. I would have simply opened the game for a pre-order period, made enough to satisfy the pre-orders, and then closed the sales of the game, either without making extras or with only making a very limited amount of games. If they didn't want to do pre-orders, I would have produced too few games to meet demand, and then when they sold out I would look at demand again. No risk. Heck, if anyone from that team wants to contact me, I'll be happy to do whatever I can to make it happen, and I'd be happy to donate all proceeds to charity. We made a similar deal with a different property recently, and it worked great. On the flip side, with a game like TRF, it would be rather difficult I think to judge demand and make it so you aren't taking on a huge risk. You can't really start taking pre-orders until you know if there is enough demand to produce it, and you really can't judge demand until you have the guarantee that you have the rights to produce it. It puts someone doing this legally in the weird position of having to guarantee a certain amount of money to acquire the rights to a product, while then having to hope that demand is high enough. TRF is one of the very few properties that is left out there that I think both *could* be legally obtained to be released still, and *has enough interest* to potentially make it worth doing. It was quite high profile, and is unique enough to be really interesting.

My point is, I guess -- that when BattleSphere was a completely and totally unknown property, risking a bunch of money on a production run with no guarantee of breaking even, and the best possible outcome being a bunch of work *to* break even, I can see why people would turn that down. I think after the release happened, the tune of a lot of companies would have changed. Personally, if the opportunity arose, I'd love to really explore making it happen. The world needs more BattleSphere

Okay, sorry -- I thought that the link was supposed to be for that deal being talked about. I personally never saw that put forth, although I have followed a lot of the Battlesphere stuff. From what I remember (actual events may vary): Thunderbird asked a few companies *before the first run* about producing it with no profits, and they turned him down. So they made the original run themselves. Part of the deal to get Atari (Hasbro) to release the rights to the Jaguar was that 4Play (Scatologic) would donate the proceeds to charity. The initial run of carts was made expecting to fill demand and just a little bit more, but shortly after being announced the story of the Jaguar's rights being released got picked up and spread through some huge news sites, and the demand for the game skyrocketed. They sold out within a few hours, if I recall correctly. After that run, a couple years later, BattleSphere Gold was created. Because the game had been revised, they were not under the same "donate all proceeds to charity" rules, and I believe they kept some or all of the proceeds (and thank god, they worked on that game for how long?!) From what I know, after the initial run was created, no companies were approached to rerun the game... Again, that is how I remember it happening. I believe this was all taking place in the very late 90s, maybe 2000. I know that by 2001, the game was officially out, and we held an 8 game network at Jagfest 2K1. I don't think that has ever been replicated anywhere, and it was really, really cool. BattleSphere Gold was not out at that time. I would *love* the game to get a repress in any way, mostly because I would love to get more copies of it to create a big network again. I still have the material to do a three person network myself... and dang, I'm going to have to do that sometime soon. I think that Gary has a copy too, which would actually make it a four person network... It's a good way to operate if you're a fan, not so much if you're a real business. If it was my full time job, we'd have gone bankrupt a long time ago. I agree that the method of distribution doesn't determine whether people are gouging or not. To me, whatever you want to do is fine so long as you actually own the rights to the material you're selling. If a noble intellectual rights holder gives you the rights to release something and expects it cheaply, they should write that into the contract... otherwise, we have no idea what it costs or doesn't cost to actually license the games and acquire the rights. I know that in some cases, just having the lawyers at a company pull out the rights and review them can cost hundreds in legal fees -- and doesn't even guarantee that the company will feel okay with selling it. Considering those companies have to turn a profit too, I'm guessing that the majority of legal rights acquisition really isn't cheap. I've been presented with situations that were different in the past that unfortunately didn't work out due to various other legal issues, but I think that was a pretty special circumstance (and those games, sadly, will remain unreleased forever I believe... but it isn't the Jaguar, at least). The Jaguar community has been pretty persistent about finding and legally releasing a lot of stuff, and I think that is really cool.

Nope, can't say I've ever been. I would've much preferred seeing a port of SFII or any of the MK series on the Jag rather than seeing yet another medioce fighting game. To me, TRF holds a cool place in my 'gaming life' history... At Jagfest 2k1, someone (Carl?) brought the game to show off. I was too busy to ever see it, but JD Norman came to Jagfest just to see it. We met at that show, and since then he has been one of the largest driving forces behind the MGC. So, it holds cool sentimental value for me :-)

The link that you have there says nothing about this deal. I don't remember that deal ever being offered -- to reprint them -- but I know of one company who would have been happy to do so, so long as we didn't risk losing money on the project. I can't speak to how other companies operate, but I can say that as long as we are interested in the project and can come up with a business plan that doesn't involve us losing our butts, we'll do it. For instance, with the Skunkboard Rev 3 run, I think when all is said and done, we'll have made like $250, and that is only because we had 100% of the boards work. GOAT Store Publishing as a whole has lost more money than we expect to ever recoup... But, we do it to get cool stuff out there. If the Battlesphere team is interested in this, I'd love to follow up with them. And, if MD wants to contact me regarding TRF, I actually know a bunch of people there today. I'd be happy to try to help get this game legally out there one way or another :-)

I guess my point would be that while that isn't the status quo with a lot of titles, the Jaguar definitely has a MUCH larger slate of legally released post-mortem titles than everything else. You can dump the two into totally separate categories without much trouble at all, and I thought you weren't noting a difference between the two. Personally, I own all of the legally released Jaguar titles that have come, and I have ZERO issues supporting those. I let my money do the talking. I own none of the protos that people dumped and just made into random protos, as I think that is totally unfair, and I won't pay for those. So, I am there with you... ...but, please do make the distinction here. If someone legally bought the rights to release TRF, then let's have it, profit for them or whatever involved! I'd LOVE to see it. If it just appears on cart, I have no interest.

Interesting debate... gotta ask though... Let's say that someone could secure the rights to officially release some game by paying $2500 for it. The option is either the person obtains the rights for $2500, or the game is not legally released, and may be lost for all time. Would you rather it be lost, or would you rather it be sold? The point that I think that was missing from this conversation is that for other consoles, generally the rights for certain titles *cannot* be obtained, either because those companies have long since gone belly-up, or because the rights holders want nothing to do with the title (Mother for the NES comes to mind). The Jaguar is different because most of the companies that worked on it still retain the rights to their titles, and to make it worth their while to whip up a contract to allow a beta to go public would definitely take some money. Companies *aren't* just "hobbiests", and if you are actually going to the source of the material to get the release rights, there will probably have to be some sort of agreement there that is more than just the person in control of the ROMs dumps them. You're talking potentially hours of contacting people, negotiations, and so on. I think that the option with many things from the Jaguar era -- with perhaps the exception of a lot of the Atari stuff that Curt has been so good to find and pass on -- have right holders that should be contacted. There are groups that don't do that, but in the case of a game like TRF, I think you would have to do that. I wish that someone made TRF into an investment because I would love to pay for a legit copy of it so I could see what it was shaping up to be in real life. If you disagree, no one is forcing your hand to buy it. But, if the belief is that the people that invest their own time and money above and beyond obtaining the game code itself should not be compensated in any way for their work and investment, I doubt the Jaguar community would have seen half the releases that it has seen. The ridiculous amounts of protos, betas, and unreleased games that have come out to me attest to the fact that there is a strong enough interest in it. I can also guarantee no one doing anything legitimately is getting rich off selling a few carts for $50 or whatever. Seriously though, if you go and look at the major unreleased titles that are available for the other consoles out there, I can't come up with any that have nearly the same amount of stuff available that the Jaguar does. I know of a half dozen things for the Dreamcast, but I know of a TON of Dreamcast stuff that has no chance of legally being reproduced because the community probably wouldn't be interested. That Jaguar has dozens of these releases, which I think is amazingly cool. If you don't like them, just don't support the releases. If enough people don't support them, then the market will dry up and we'll have no regular releases like most of the other retro gaming communities out there.

With the Yoshi's, you add the complexity of jumping on and off them, and then having to figure out what color does what. If anything, the Yoshi situation highlights to me the lack of precision put into the power ups. Sure, the blue one can fly, but I have to remember that, and not accidentally hop off of him while attempting to use that ability.