Xboard, Whats the point?

[Shawn]

Hey,

 

In all seriousness, what is the point in having an Xboard when VERY few new games are made for the 7800 and it's useless without code made specifically for it? I was thinking about getting one and then I second guessed myself and though whats the point? Isn't it realy more of a novelty upgrade than a useful one?

 

Shawn

Edited January 7, 2007 by Shawn Sr.

[jaybird3rd]

The XBoard definitely needs a "killer app," or a must-have homebrew game that requires it. That game doesn't exist yet, so the XBoard isn't an important investment now, but I think it will be in the future. It remedies many of the biggest limitations of the 7800 and gives developers a lot of options, and because it eliminates the need to put RAM and POKEY inside the cartridge, it keeps the price of new 7800 cartridges down. It could pay for itself after two or three games, assuming those games are ever made.

 

It's actually gotten me more excited about 7800 homebrewing myself, and I hope it stays in production long enough for me and other homebrewers to support it.

[Shawn]

The XBoard definitely needs a "killer app," or a must-have homebrew game that requires it. That game doesn't exist yet, so the XBoard isn't an important investment now, but I think it will be in the future. It remedies many of the biggest limitations of the 7800 and gives developers a lot of options, and because it eliminates the need to put RAM and POKEY inside the cartridge, it keeps the price of new 7800 cartridges down. It could pay for itself after two or three games, assuming those games are ever made.

 

It's actually gotten me more excited about 7800 homebrewing myself, and I hope it stays in production long enough for me and other homebrewers to support it.

 

 

Thats where I was questioning it. Of the 5 big homebrews\hacks of the last year or so it's 5 to 1 agenst with the demo of Frogger being the only one even trying to support it with no real need too as the majority of 7800 users just don't have an Xboard. And the costs of POKEY and RAM enabled boards is so cheap still too. I mean whats a ballblazer or a Jinks worth 3 bucks? I know I can get a few HUNDRED copies of it NOS at that price and it ain't no big secret where they come from, anyone could. It's an awesome idea and I really like the possibilities of what it can do but how long will it be that this is "what the xboard *could* do" and turn into "in the game "y" the Xboard does *this* to make it better" and make it a justifed purchase so guys like me that are one the fence about buying one won't have to question the purchase.

Edited January 7, 2007 by Shawn Sr.

[Schmutzpuppe]

One more advantage of the XBoard is the memory location of the Pokey.

You don't have to waste so much address space like with the cartridge Pokey.

[jaybird3rd]

Thats where I was questioning it. Of the 5 big homebrews\hacks of the last year or so it's 5 to 1 agenst with the demo of Frogger being the only one even trying to support it with no real need too as the majority of 7800 users just don't have an Xboard. And the costs of POKEY and RAM enabled boards is so cheap still too. I mean whats a ballblazer or a Jinks worth 3 bucks? I know I can get a few HUNDRED copies of it NOS at that price and it ain't no big secret where they come from, anyone could. It's an awesome idea and I really like the possibilities of what it can do but how long will it be that this is "what the xboard *could* do" and turn into "in the game "y" the Xboard does *this* to make it better" and make it a justifed purchase so guys like me that are one the fence about buying one won't have to question the purchase.

It's something of a Catch-22, unfortunately: developers won't write games that require the XBoard because so few people have them, and more people aren't buying XBoards because the games aren't there yet. The availability of donor carts with POKEY or RAM has allowed developers to avoid the dilemma by using cartridge boards that have the features their games need, but in my opinion that is an undesireable option: it requires time-consuming desoldering of old ROM chips, it relies on a limited (albeit plentiful) supply of old cartridges, it destroys perfectly good copies of old Atari games, and it still doesn't give you the option of having POKEY and extra RAM.

 

With the new cartridge PCBs being sold by CPUWIZ and Bruce Tomlin (I have both and they're both great), and with new cartridge shells and labels available, it's now possible to build relatively inexpensive 7800 cartridges using totally new components. Until now, that meant being forced to developing games without extra RAM and without POKEY, but the XBoard makes it possible to have both, so it's an important piece of hardware that deserves more support. As I said before, I desperately hope that AtariMax can keep them available until more developers adopt the XBoard and create more games for it; once that happens, I think it will become a must-have for 7800 enthusiasts. I've got one on order right now, and I can't wait to start working with it.

Edited January 7, 2007 by jaybird3rd

[Shawn]

and it still doesn't give you the option of having POKEY and extra RAM.

 

Now a game that used both, that would justify the Xboard for me in 1 second flat.

 

 

With the new cartridge PCBs being sold by CPUWIZ and Bruce Tomlin (I have both and they're both great), and with new cartridge shells and labels available, it's now possible to build relatively inexpensive 7800 cartridges using totally new components.

 

I have bought a handful of the boards from Bruce and a few hundred (seriously hundreds) of boards from CPUWIZ so I can also give the nod to the quality of those boards also. 2600 and 7800.

 

EDIT: The shells is a totally different issue and a tale for another day as that gets me back on the why not just get a ballblazer or Jinks cause they come with the shell and ROM chips take about 3 mins to remove once you get it down pat right? Also the price of new shells isn't cheap either to the point that they are not worth buying if they where plain black ones but the sleekness of the colored ones do justify the purchase of them...for now.... But anyhow, the shells thing is a topic for another day.

Edited January 7, 2007 by Shawn Sr.

[kenfused]

I think the biggest problem with the Xboard is price and difficulty of installation. And both combined together just make it too expensive. Also I am not sure if some install modifications might be necessary to make it work with some video/svideo boards? So right now I could only really see supporting it for optional pokey support in some games. RAM is a little harder to probably optionally use but maybe it could be used to support more players or temporary high score tables or something.

[shadow460]

A while back, PacMan had discussed the possibility of stereo sound from the XBoarD. That's another thing that might make it a must have.

I, for one, want to learn to work with it. I also wonder if there's any advantage to added hardware in the cart if you've got XBoarD installed. The game I've had in mind as a development goal relies heavily on its music to attract players, and it may be a suitable title for an XBoarD only release.

I thought Beef Drop was supposed to support XBoarD, but something had gone wrong.

 

I've got the same though as Ken, though. The price isn't bad--$45, and that's in line with what upgrades to more modern consoles should cost. I've seen some upgrades that are costlier than that--anyone remember the NetLink modem at $200? Many of the upgrades I've purchased cost around $30 to $50 new anyway. XBoarD rolls two upgrades into one.

What breaks the deal is the installation. MARIA has 48 pins and can be difficult to desolder even under the best circumstances. For the average 7800 user, installing the XBoarD is impossible. Even if MARIA is socketed, the user still has to get to her, which means dealing with the uber brittle case and the internal RF shield, then they've still got a difficult task with unseating MARIA from her socket (unless they've got the correct tools).

Why no pass through cart, then? For me that is simple: TIA kicks out stereo sound. The cartridge audio line is monaural. If I want to code a game in stereo that uses the POKEYs, it must be programmed for the XBoarD. I know that currently XBoarD is a monaural device also, but it may develop into a dual POKEY stereo setup whose outputs could hook directly into an A/V mod. Who knows?

 

So you're looking at $100 minimum for something that's less useful than the NetLink was.

Right now, the XBoarD isn't for everyone. MAybe in the future, it will become a must have.

[Shawn]

and it may be a suitable title for an XBoarD only release.

 

 

 

That happens and I buy an Xboard and I bet quite a few other hardcore 7800 fans would too even if they have to pay to get the system upgraded by someone else. If you build it... I mean....You produce a game that is awesome and they will come.

[shadow460]

Thing is that I might have to bundle other hardware with the game instead of an XBoarD. I might have to bundle a trak-ball mod board with it. You remember what I wanted to do with it, though, with the 2 player simultaneous and all.

It's still a long way off, though. And I still reserve the right to cancel... In that event I might go ahead with the mod board which would allow a CX-22 to have left and right fire buttons independent of each other, yet still register to the 7800 while in both TB and joystick modes.

 

Other advantges? Hmmm, perhaps a Supercharger title that uses Pokey sound.

The biggest cart I know of is 512K, and it has a POKEY on board. If that POKEY isn't needed, there's an extra 16K of RAM you can build onto that board. No games have been made on that board AFAIK, but I think in the end, that extra 16K of RAM may make a difference.

 

I dunno much about the hardware yet, though, so maybe I'm just talking out my butt.

 

Right now the biggest reason to own XBoarD is the non Pokey Beef Drop Ken was talking about releasing. You save $5 on the cart, you save a Ballblazer cart, and, with a little work, you get the Pokey sound. XBoarD could also allow a license/label pack to be sold so that a buyer could build his own legal copy of a game and not need a Pokey chip to go in that--it's already in the XBoarD system. That's a $5 per cart savings--$5 that could go to charity or be passed on to the buyer.

 

As for installation, everybody in this thread is capable of installing the XBoarD for those who don't have the tools or skill to install their brand shiny new hardware. I'm sure other, like AJ and keilbaca could do it, too. It could be installed at the same time as an AV mod, TV Type, compatibility mods, and that would save the console's owner money since the "technician" would only have to open the console once. Now I don't speak for anyone but me, but I'm not keeping a roof over my head with money from Atari work, so I could install it for a little less than what you'll pay to the vendor if they install it. That helps me, since I can work for a trade instead. Sure, my customers can offload that spare Tank Command.

WILL INSTALL XBOARD IN EXCHANGE FOR TANK COMMAND. Hmm, sounds good to me!

 

So we can save the community some cash with the XBoarD. Not to mention it might one day be bundled with the first XBoarD only game that hits the AA store.

[EricBall]

Other advantges? Hmmm, perhaps a Supercharger title that uses Pokey sound.

Except a SuperCharger would lock the system into 2600 mode, thus making the POKEY inaccessible.

[Shawn]

Other advantges? Hmmm, perhaps a Supercharger title that uses Pokey sound.

Except a SuperCharger would lock the system into 2600 mode, thus making the POKEY inaccessible.

 

 

Currently working on that problem 2600BIN+7800PCB=2600&POKEY&RAM (maybe, even though it's near pointless)

[shadow460]

Hmmm, that calls for a custom Supercharger to be built, then. It would be one with a 7800 style PCB.

I have really gotta get hot on learning the 7800 hardware...

[godzillajoe]

OK dumb question but what the hell is an XBoard?

[jbanes]

OK dumb question but what the hell is an XBoard?

No one can be told what the Matrix XBoard is. You must see it for yourself. The XBoard is everywhere. It is all around us. You can see it when you look at your TV or when you turn on your 7800. You can feel it when you start gaming. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth of the MARIA chip.

 

You take the blue pill, the story ends here, you wake up and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill you stay in wonderland and I'll show you just how deep the rabbit hole goes...

 

[jaybird3rd]

OK dumb question but what the hell is an XBoard?

Try checking one of the "Similar Topics" links right at the bottom of this page ...

 

A7800 RAM/POKEY XBoard expansion now available

[mos6507]

It's kind of past the point of no return here. The device has been created, and people will either install it and developers start supporting it or they won't.

[jbanes]

I just don't get the point, either. By replacing the MARIA with an XBoard, you're effectively creating a new game console. While the scheme works great for computers where GUI systems and other programs can automatically benefit from the increase in power, it does little to help console games that are designed around the precising timings and limitations of the hardware. As a result, there's no reason for gamers to purchase and install this expansion until a significant software library exists. But until a significant installed base exists, no one is going to bother targetting the expansion.

 

Am I missing something here?

Edited January 12, 2007 by jbanes

[jaybird3rd]

Well, technically the XBoard doesn't replace MARIA; it just moves it to a daughterboard that also contains additional features. These features (extra RAM and POKEY) are also add-ons that the 7800 has enjoyed since the beginning (through the use of fancy cartridges), so it isn't making the 7800 into a new game console, either, any more than the SARA chip and the AtariVox make the 2600 a whole new game console.

 

What it *does* do is it uncouples those add-ons from the cartridges and moves them to the console itself, making it possible for developers to use them in their new games without having to butcher old Atari cartridges. The common response to this seems to be, "Well, O'Shea's still has plenty of old carts left, and it only takes a few minutes to remove the ROM, so why do we need the XBoard?" Setting aside the fact that this stockpile of old carts won't last forever, this still doesn't give you all the options that the XBoard does. What if you want to create a game that uses both POKEY and extra RAM? What if you want more than 16K of extra RAM, or more than 32K of ROM for a POKEY game without butchering scarce Commando carts? What if you want to use POKEY and/or RAM in a game that is 256K or larger? None of this is possible without the XBoard, and without new PCB designs like Bruce Tomlin's Mini-Ultracart (which doesn't allow onboard RAM or POKEY at all but does allow for very large ROMs).

 

Having said all that ... I will admit that, because the XBoard requires games that are specifically designed for it, the market for it is presently limited to developers who are interested in supporting it in their games, and to gamers who want to buy it in anticipation of those games. That's why I said earlier that it would be a shame if the XBoard was to disappear before enough titles are created for it to make it a worthwhile investment for most 7800 gamers. We'll only need two or three such titles to make the XBoard a must-have, and I've already got some ideas along those lines (if I can ever find time to finish them ...)

[shadow460]

Never mind the scarce Commando carts, Jay. I've seen red label Ballblazers get hacked up, too. I've got one, and neither it nor its grey counterpart are going anywhere.

[Shawn]

Never mind the scarce Commando carts, Jay. I've seen red label Ballblazers get hacked up, too. I've got one, and neither it nor its grey counterpart are going anywhere.

 

Red label Ballblazer rarity is false. I would say one in ten is red labeled. Hell I used 30 of them just for shells in december alone. Don't belive me, ask CPUWIZ he sold them all to me.

[gdement]

One way this upgrade can be useful is if a developer sells 2 versions of the same game. The more expensive version would be a fully 7800-compatible cartridge with the necessary sound and/or RAM onboard. The cheaper cartridge could sell for maybe $10 less and would be based on a common ROM only cart and require an XBoard to work.

 

Other than that, a programmer could try to think of clever ways to use 128KB of RAM for optional features. That's an awful lot of memory, and it's worth thinking about when designing a game. But nobody will write a game that REQUIRES the XBoard to run. There aren't enough people who have one, and there never will be since installation is such an invasive procedure.

 

Which raises the question of a passthrough cart... maybe an XBoard compatible passthrough would be a good idea. But I'm not sure how stable that would really be.

 

 

...or more than 32K of ROM for a POKEY game without butchering scarce Commando carts?

Commando carts are way too expensive to even consider for homebrew distribution. Anybody who thinks they can use that cart will change their mind when they look at what they cost.

Edited May 7, 2007 by gdement

[Shawn]

Commando carts are way too expensive to even consider for homebrew distribution. Anybody who thinks they can use that cart will change their mind when they look at what they cost.

 

I have\do hack up commando's, all the cool kids do don'tcha know?

[CPUWIZ]

Commando carts are way too expensive to even consider for homebrew distribution. Anybody who thinks they can use that cart will change their mind when they look at what they cost.

 

I have\do hack up commando's, all the cool kids do don'tcha know?

 

Especially after they've been told how to.

[Shawn]

Commando carts are way too expensive to even consider for homebrew distribution. Anybody who thinks they can use that cart will change their mind when they look at what they cost.

 

I have\do hack up commando's, all the cool kids do don'tcha know?

 

Especially after they've been told how to.

 

 

Hey ya gotta learn somehow might as well get your schoolin' from the best right?