2600 Rom Comparisions and Dumps

[Rom Hunter]

Thanks.

 

Stargate also removed.

 

Funny thing is it was more or less playable in a very old Stella emulator.

 

The aliens were funky indeed and in the end the game crashed.

 

That leaves us with Superman (8K).

 

Edited April 22, 2008 by Rom Hunter

[Omegamatrix]

Superman works on real hardware. It looks like a hack job to me though. I can't say for sure.

[Rom Hunter]

Found it:

http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?s...st&p=820543

 

It's Nukey's work and formed the base of James Francis' Superman hack:

Greatest_American_Hero__The__Superman_Hack___2005___James_Francis___8K_.bin

Pffff.

 

Moved it to my Hacks & Homebrews collection.

 

 

I think it's fair to say that the 8.25K Rocky & Bullwinkle ROM can be removed too, because only the first 4K is original data.

 

What do you think?

 

IMO a Mattel proto with a Supercharger intro looks plain stupid in my collection.

 

 

About the Indy 500, Slot Machine and Surround on post #161:

 

They were all dumped on the same day at the same time, so the bit rot theory doesn't make any sense to me.

 

Must be the dumping procedure IMO.

 

Although not 100% identical overdumps, shall I remove them as well?

 

BTW: is Surround also a one bit difference?

 

Edited April 23, 2008 by Rom Hunter

[Hornpipe2]

When you split it is exactly the same as roms that are out there so would you keep it? It's useless unless you built a cart with a physical switch on it, and the rom image is nothing unique. Just two normal roms stuck together.

 

This raises interesting questions about what should and should not go in the Collection. Now I'm obviously not the one compiling everything here, so I'll of course defer to Rom's wishes, but if I was doing this:

 

* I would have only unique BIN files in the collection. No overdumps, no 2-in-1 where both Roms are identical, not even pirate (or legit) re-releases with no differences, etc. The only binary present would be the first known release of each revision of the ROM.

* I would have a text file that indicates later releases where an identical ROM was matched. That way no historical information is lost, but no BINs are duplicated. (e.g. if I had a dump of "PirateCo's 2-in-1" but both halves were just Atari's Combat and Air-Sea Battle, I would not include the 2-in-1 dump itself but would note it in the history file so that future generations would see it had been dumped and the result - this is enough information for any interested party to re-create it as needed)

 

However, I definitely understand the value of leaving identical ROMs under different names too, so it's really up to you.

Edited April 23, 2008 by Hornpipe2

[Rom Hunter]

* I would have only unique BIN files in the collection. No overdumps, no 2-in-1 where both Roms are identical, not even pirate (or legit) re-releases with no differences, etc. The only binary present would be the first known release of each revision of the ROM.

Please know that my collection is not only a collection of 'scavenged binaries' like some dipsticks state, but also a very accurate reference guide for label model numbers, label copyright years, programmers, companies, etc.

 

That's the reason why this collection also contains copies of exactly the same ROM released by several different companies.

 

Simply sticking to the first released ROMs only would mean a loss of important info.

 

However, removing bad dumps and overdumps will not hurt the collection.

 

I'm not happy with X-in-1 bins, but some of them certainly have historical value (HES' 2 Pak Specials come to mind).

 

Edited April 23, 2008 by Rom Hunter

[Hornpipe2]

Please know that my collection is not only a collection of 'scavenged binaries' like some dipsticks state, but also a very accurate reference guide for label model numbers, label copyright years, programmers, companies, etc.

 

That's the reason why this collection also contains copies of exactly the same ROM released by several different companies.

 

Understood. I don't have a problem with the setup as it stands, just was curious about the procedure you'd follow for things like e.g. the 2-in-1 dipswitch games. In that case, I think it is probably best to leave them in (assuming you know the company or year of release) even if they don't work outside a special cart, because they are still historically significant.

[Rom Hunter]

I've hesitated quite some time before adding Brazilian ROM dumps to the collection, but they too have historical value.

 

Most Brazilian companies put their own logo on screen, which is quite interesting to see.

 

Would love to have them as single game files though, instead of all kinds of X-in-1 combination dumps that don't work on emulators (thank God).

 

 

Ok, only Indy 500, Slot Machine and Surround left.

 

Leave them in or out?

 

Surround 1 bit difference?

 

Edited April 23, 2008 by Rom Hunter

[Omegamatrix]

Here's the thing about 2k games. They are duplicated to fill the rom space when they are burned. If you split the rom in half, then both halves should match. If they don't then it is either bit rot or a bad dump. A change should be relected in both roms.

 

When Thomas looked at that Indy 500 rom he said the change in the code made no sense. I would say these roms weren't intentional changes and should be tossed.

 

 

With the dipswitched games most of the time they are all dumped individually. That's how I had to do my Dactars. To get the roms combined like that you would have to go directly at the IC or join the rom together afterwards. When you download the game you should have them seperated though as how else could you play them in emulation? The games that should stay joined are the ones that let you choose a game via a menu or by pressing power on and off.

[Rom Hunter]

Exactly.

 

Omega, can you point out the halves differences of Slot Machine and Surround?

 

Also just one bit like Indy 500?

 

 

BTW: all [a]lternate ROMs checked.

 

They all function, except for PAL Fatal Run [a] and Lord of the Rings [a] (they don't work on Z26, only on Stella).

 

Edited April 23, 2008 by Rom Hunter

[Hornpipe2]

Exactly.

 

Omega, can you point out the halves differences of Slot Machine and Surround?

 

Also just one bit like Indy 500?

 

 

BTW: all [a]lternate ROMs checked.

 

They all function, except for PAL Fatal Run [a] and Lord of the Rings [a] (they don't work on Z26, only on Stella).

 

I thought the LoTR were just two different versions from Atariprotos:

http://www.atariprotos.com/2600/software/lotr/lotr.htm

 

EDIT: Never mind, you said PAL ?

Edited April 24, 2008 by Hornpipe2

[Omegamatrix]

Omega, can you point out the halves differences of Slot Machine and Surround?

 

Also just one bit like Indy 500?

 

file 1: Indy 500 (2k).bin
file 2: Indy 500 [a] $F000 - $F7FF.bin
file 3: Indy 500 [a] $F800 - $FFFF.bin
	 1	 2	 3
04E6	D6	56	D6

 

I split the rom and compared it to itself and the other 2k rom out there. Only one bit different in Indy 500 like you said. so likely bit rot in that part of the rom and then it was dumped. The other half matches the good rom 100%.

 

Surround is a bad dump. I split it and one of the halves won't open. Quite a bit of difference between them too.

 

Slot Machine I'll have to check some more.

[Omegamatrix]

file 1: Slot Machine (2k).bin
file 2: Slot Machine [a] $F000 - $F7FF.bin
file 3: Slot Machine [a] $F800 - $FFFF.bin
	 1	 2	 3
0453	95	00	95

 

So in that 4k rom both halves don't match each other. The difference is at $F453.

 

$F453	 1001 0101  ($95)
$F453[a]  0000 0000  ($00)

 

 

I think this a problem with the dumping still though, because the other half matches the 2k rom out there.. It will be interesting to see what that byte of code at $F453 does. Both halves worked on real hardware for me, but until you know where a glitch is then it can be hard to find.

[Rom Hunter]

Many thanks for checking, Omega.

 

Ok, removed Indy 500, Slot Machine and Surround.

 

Also because all three were dumped at the same time.

 

BTW: here are the other ROMs dumped at the very same time:

International_Soccer__1982___M_Network__Kevin_Miller___MT5687___a_.bin

Multi_Game___Freeway__Tennis__Unknown___2402_044_01_.bin

Robin_Hood__1983___Xonox___K_Tel_Software___99005__6220__6250___PAL___a_.bin

Sir_Lancelot__1983___Xonox___K_Tel_Software__Anthony_R._Henderson___99006__6220___a1_.bin

Super_Breakout__Paddle___1982___1981___Atari__Carol_Shaw__Nick___Sandy_Maiwald___Turner___Sears___CX2608___49_75165___a_.bin

Tank_Brigade__AKA_Phantom_Tank___1983___Panda___101_.bin

(That's another Sir Lancelot than the one you mentioned earlier, Omega).

 

Perhaps something is wrong with these too?

 

 

I'm still left with Video Life (4K) and Rocky & Bullwinkle (9K)...

 

Edited April 24, 2008 by Rom Hunter

[Omegamatrix]

I was looking at that Slot Machine rom and it was giving me a BRK in a place that didn't make sense. I think it is a bad rom but you already removed it so it is a null point.

 

 

With Sir Lancelot if it matches this version here it is a good rom:

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?s...t&p=1258454

 

Edit: checked the Sir Lancelot you posted Rom, and it is the correct version.

 

 

The version I dumped a long time ago (which I believe was your [a2] version can be discarded. That was a case in which my dumper "created" an alternate version. Although functionally the same the rom was different on a few lines. These were the bankswitching hotspots. If I ran my dumper at 7800 speed it would ignore reading what was there and replace it with $00 (all zeros). At 2600 speed the software does read what is actually there, but like Eckhard say you can never be 100% sure it is correct.

 

The point is I matched the old rom (a1) 100% by changing how I ran the dumper, which reaffirms it is a good dump as that is two people at least that got a similar dump. My (a2) version isn't as accurate because the information at those addresses was never read, and left blank. This starts happening with games larger then 4k as that is when you start bankswitching. I was unaware of this problem at the time I did that dump.

 

Video Life is different because whatever it has 1k of ram. If you include that while you dump you will get a different version every time as ram is not permanent memory, and its values are always changing. When cut to 2k that rom matches one of the other 2k Video Life's out there. You have to keep the rom at 2k though as ram is volatile.

 

 

Rocky and Bullwinkle was never meant to be 9K. It has to do with how the Worship the Woodgrain CD was built.

Edited April 24, 2008 by Omegamatrix

[Rom Hunter]

Hence:

 

I will remove Video Life (4K), Rocky & Bullwinkle (9K) and Sir Lancelot [a2]

 

My V3 collection now counts 1771 ROMs.

 

I think we have to be very careful about what we remove now.

 

A lot of [a]lternate versions have historical value.

 

Edited April 24, 2008 by Rom Hunter

[Omegamatrix]

The multigame appears to be another dipswitched cart. I couldn't access the Tennis rom on my cart or in emulation.

 

So I split it up:

multi_game__freeway__2k.bin

multi_game__tennis__2k.bin

 

Freeway 100% matches the Zellers Freeway rom. Tennis didn't match anything, but all that is different is that the logo has been removed as is typical with many pirate roms.

 

 

Edit: I believe that all that Zellers Freeway has different from the regular Freeway rom is the logo is erased. Since this is done by a lot of pirate companies it is possible two completely similar roms could be produced from two different pirate companies.

 

 

I'll take a look at the rest later, Rom.

Edited April 24, 2008 by Omegamatrix

[Omegamatrix]

I think we have to be very careful about what we remove now.

 

A lot of [a]lternate versions have historical value.

 

I couldn't agree more. My definition of a true alternate is a bug fix, or an intentional change. Example Demon Attack ending at level 82 or so. Decathlon and the famous Pole Vault Glitch (and fix). Othello and the four board markers.

 

 

With prototypes all versions are significant, but I only usually keep the most complete, unless there is an element of gameplay that didn't appear in a later version.

 

 

I even like all the pirate roms with different pirate logos. These are all worth keeping IMO.

[Rom Hunter]

Edit: I believe that all that Zellers Freeway has different from the regular Freeway rom is the logo is erased. Since this is done by a lot of pirate companies it is possible two completely similar roms could be produced from two different pirate companies.

Tell me about it.

 

A lot of pirate companies didn't even care to take the a 'rival' company's logo out.

 

Thanks, Omega!

 

Edited April 24, 2008 by Rom Hunter

[Omegamatrix]

Tell me about it.

 

A lot of pirate companies didn't even care to take the a 'rival' company's logo out.

 

If they just disabled it so that it is not appearing on the screen then it is like finding gold if you don't know who originally made the game. HES Challenge comes to mind with the Funvision logo still hidden inside the rom, or Motocross with the Homevision logo still inside.

[Rom Hunter]

Yep.

 

Not to forget the weird Bit Corp logo in Karate.

 

Very interesting IMO.

 

[Rom Hunter]

Omega, any news on the International Soccer, Robin Hood and Super Breakout?

 

[Omegamatrix]

I'll look tomorrow night.

[Hornpipe2]

Right now I am very interested in what is the difference in versions of Commando, Dig Dug, Jr. Pac-Man and River Raid II (all 16k NTSC games with [a] versions) - does anyone know about bugfix releases of these games?

 

EDIT: Judging by all the 0xFFs in the Dig Dug [a], I think someone playing it long enough might run across a difference... is this the prototype? http://www.atariprotos.com/2600/software/digdug/digdug.htm

 

EDIT2: The only difference between Jr. PacMan and Jr. PacMan [a] is that in [a] unused ROM spaces are 0x00 while in the base they are 0xFF. Thus, I believe Jr. Pac Man is actually the Final NTSC version prototype: http://www.atariprotos.com/2600/software/j...an/jrpacman.htm

while Jr. PacMan [a] is the real-deal ROM cart version.

 

EDIT3: There are (at least) differences in some of the startup vectors of the River Raid II versions. No idea which is correct, or if both are right.

Edited April 25, 2008 by Hornpipe2

[Rom Hunter]

I'm sorry Hornpipe, but I have to draw the line somewhere.

 

We're wading through Speculation Swamp territory here.

 

I need a dump of the actual cart to rename any further .bins

 

[Hornpipe2]

I need a dump of the actual cart to rename any further .bins

That's fine, and unfortunately I won't be able to help you there. I was mostly just curious if anyone knew of bugs fixed (or other changes) in these different revisions, so that we could tell the difference in ROMs apart by simply playing on the emulator. I hope at least that my comments provide a 'testable hypothesis'...