Cassette software CAS images and WAV questions

[Gunstar]

With all the topics related to cassettes lately, I've been, checking some stuff out, and I have a few questions. First, do .CAS images work with A.P.E? Because I tried the A.P.E playback with a .CAS image mounted and when I attempted to load the image via the usual tape process (hold START, turn on computer, etc.) and the computer failed to recognize and start loading the image. What is the specific process here? Second question, I've never really used .WAV files ever, making, playing, or whatever, but I assume that if a .WAV file is made out of an Atari cassette, that the same .WAV file could be recorded back onto REAL cassettes instead of using something like WAV2CAS to create images, correct? If this is so, is there a site that has Atari cassettes programs available for download in .WAV format so that people can just record them back onto real cassettes and use them as originally intended? Personally, I'd just as soon have tapes and make use of my 1010 rather than using .CAS images, if I can learn to use them.

[Wrathchild]

Hi Gunstar,

 

No so likely as the WAV format is not so efficient.

I just took the sample of an 11K basis program and

this was 20 MBytes in size, as an MP3 its 3.5 MB.

 

At the time most conversions were done broadband access

(and generous webspace) wouldn't have been readily available.

Also it could have taken up a fair chunk of your hard-drive and so

the sample would have most likely been deleted after conversion.

 

These days it may not be an issue - though a return to the days of

waiting 15 minutes for a 48/64K game to load is not one I'd go for

 

Regards,

Mark

[Gunstar]

Hi Gunstar,

 

No so likely as the WAV format is not so efficient.

I just took the sample of an 11K basis program and

this was 20 MBytes in size, as an MP3 its 3.5 MB.

 

At the time most conversions were done broadband access

(and generous webspace) wouldn't have been readily available.

Also it could have taken up a fair chunk of your hard-drive and so

the sample would have most likely been deleted after conversion.

 

These days it may not be an issue - though a return to the days of

waiting 15 minutes for a 48/64K game to load is not one I'd go for

 

Regards,

Mark

 

I agree, to some extent, with 48/64K games, or as I recall, Bruce Lee, which was 32K took quite a while to load as well. And these, for the most part, have disk versions. But I'm think more of the 8k-24k realm of earlier titles that only took a few minutes to load. For example, I have a dual tape of Fire One! and Starfire which I believe both to be only 8K or maybe 16K games, and they load in just a couple minutes. Besides, time is not a concern for me. The modern age has not made me impatient, and I'm quite capable of multitasking and doing something else while I wait for a tape to load, even a 64K tape. I get more of a "kick" out of actually using an ancient device like a 1010 recorder than I do out of actually playing the game or being concerned with load times. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one either. 3.5MB or even 20MB is NOTHING these days, at least temporarily, and once I have it recorded back onto another cassette, I've no use to keep the .WAV file anyway. I have a cassette that will last another 20 years. So maybe you think it's not worth it, but I think it is worth it.

 

If someone were to start a site like this, I see no reason, if space is an issue, of having a limited number of files up for a limited time, for download, and announcements could be made here, and at the site of what will be up and for how long. Files could be rotated too. This is of course assuming that the person running the site had the space off-site to permanently hold the files for rotation. Maybe even just doing it as a sticky thread here on Atari Age, where people can post .WAV's and the administration can take older ones down after a while, or something like that...just ideas I'm throwing out, I've no way of hosting a site right now myself, or even of making .WAV files for upload here, though that I would learn, but I only have three cassette titles to share anyway.

 

As it stands, a .WAV file must be made to convert into .CAS anyway, right? So "mass" amounts of memory have to be used temporarily already. Right?

 

Anyway, worst case scenario, lets assume you are right and it's not worth it to anyone but me, I still would like to know how to use .CAS images with A.P.E as I seem to not know what I'm doing there. Maybe I can't have fun using my 1010, I will settle for using .CAS images with A.P.E.

Edited April 7, 2007 by Gunstar

[Shawn Jefferson]

Maybe using torrent technology would be better than a webpage... ?

[Gunstar]

You are speaking of something I don't believe I'm familiar with, please explain.

[classics]

Anyway, worst case scenario, lets assume you are right and it's not worth it to anyone but me, I still would like to know how to use .CAS images with A.P.E as I seem to not know what I'm doing there. Maybe I can't have fun using my 1010, I will settle for using .CAS images with A.P.E.

 

Click 'Cassette' and then 'Playback', it will prompt you for the CAS image you wish to load.

 

Once its loaded, the cassette playback interface will come up, which has play/stop/ff/rw buttons.

 

Turn on the Atari while holding Start (and option if no basic). After you hear the tone, press Return on the Atari and play on APE.

 

You have to press Play on APE because standard SIO2PC interfaces don't monitor the cassette motor control line and it won't start playing automatically like a 1010 will.

 

Steve

[www.atarimania.com]

What are the problematic images that won't load? If they were taken from our site, please report back and tell us which ones weren't working properly so they can be replaced. Also make sure they aren't PAL-only tapes...

 

If someone were to start a site like this, I see no reason, if space is an issue, of having a limited number of files up for a limited time, for download, and announcements could be made here, and at the site of what will be up and for how long. Files could be rotated too. This is of course assuming that the person running the site had the space off-site to permanently hold the files for rotation. Maybe even just doing it as a sticky thread here on Atari Age, where people can post .WAV's and the administration can take older ones down after a while, or something like that...just ideas I'm throwing out, I've no way of hosting a site right now myself, or even of making .WAV files for upload here, though that I would learn, but I only have three cassette titles to share anyway.

Anything in CAS format is Atari800Win PLus / APE-friendly so there's no point in having additional WAV files, which are cumbersome to upload, EVEN with today's technology. CAS2WAV or WAV2CAS conversions just take about ten seconds anyway if you really need to record back...

 

More than 500 tapes have been archived on our site, either submissions or conversions by us from our own collections... and the number of titles is growing by the day. Just check the announcements or the list I posted in another thread to check what's available.

 

I can't say I've seen a lot of interest from North American users though: more than 90% of what we have was sent by European fans and only two Atarians from the US submitted more than two programs (a8isa and Karl S.)...

 

--

Atari Frog

http://www.atarimania.com

Edited April 7, 2007 by www.atarimania.com

[deathtrappomegranate]

There is no need to have .wav files available.

 

The cas2wav program (part of the wav2cas distribution) produces perfect .wav files from .cas images - these can then be recorded to cassette, if you wish. The .cas file contains all of the necessary data. As you rightly point out, the .wav file is only needed as a temporary step, in either direction.

 

But it is cool to see some transatlantic interest in cassette software .

[Gunstar]

There is no need to have .wav files available.

 

The cas2wav program (part of the wav2cas distribution) produces perfect .wav files from .cas images - these can then be recorded to cassette, if you wish. The .cas file contains all of the necessary data. As you rightly point out, the .wav file is only needed as a temporary step, in either direction.

 

But it is cool to see some transatlantic interest in cassette software .

 

Cassette software was commonly used in the U.S. too, early in the 8-bit's life anyway. The 810 drive cost like $500 at one time, disk drives were too expensive for many middle-class users, and even the 410 recorder was around $200 IIRC, it just didn't stay the standard as long over here as it did on the east side of the Atlantic, it faded out around '83/84 over here, as the 800XL was released, and the 1050 was only about $200 or $300 when released, and even then some software came with both disk and cassette for a while longer. I didn't get into Atari computing until late '85 and I started with and used a cassette drive until '86. I remember drooling over disk software that didn't come on tape too.

 

But I guess I can see peoples point of just using the software to switch it back to .WAV format to record onto tape. I didn't know it was reversable.

Edited April 7, 2007 by Gunstar

[Shawn Jefferson]

You are speaking of something I don't believe I'm familiar with, please explain.

 

Peer to peer sharing software (like BitTorrent and family). Hosting large files on a web server can really hammer the server, plus you usually pay for bandwidth and file storage on websites. Peer to peer sharing spreads the load across various "peers". Of course, we would have to have enough people willing to host the files (torrents) to make it viable. But, as I read above, there is no need as CAS2WAV would work...

Edited April 7, 2007 by Shawn Jefferson

[deathtrappomegranate]

In the UK, disk drives were very expensive. The 400/800 computers were very pricey, and disk drives cost even more.

 

The UK had a very solid user base for cassette software, thanks to the Sinclair ZX80 and ZX81. Early Commodore PETs had built-in cassette drives, and we also had machines like the Acorn Atom and Compukit UK101 that relied on tape storage.

 

Then, as now, the price in GBP was often the same as in USD - so an item that cost $100 in the US would cost £100 in the UK - 50-100% more. Very few people had disk drives for that reason.

 

But it is very cool that the wav2cas process is reversible. As you say, cassettes seem to be surprisingly resilient as storage media. I have been archiving .wav files on CD, as well as .cas files, but only because blank CDs are so cheap.

[Urchlay]

Know what would be neat?

 

Someone should build a CD player with an SIO connector... it'd act just like a 1010. You'd burn .wav files to CD, then boot the Atari from the CD.

 

It could be something like Beetle's "1001" CF reader, built into a 1010 case. Depending on how the measurements work out, you might have to use a 3.5" CD-ROM drive instead of a full-sized CD, but you could still (maybe?) fit several cassettes on one CD. There would have to be a way to select which CD audio track to play, unless you only wanted to record one cassette on each CD (depending on the length of the tracks, you might have to do it this way anyway... how many minutes of tape is an average Atari game?)

 

It'd still load at cassette speed... but it should be possible to include an audio track on the CD, for cassette programs that use a separate audio track. The motor control line on the SIO port could pause/unpause the CD player.

 

Someone better than me at hardware could do this... in theory, it's pretty simple (in practice, it'd take a good bit of work).

[Gunstar]

Know what would be neat?

 

Someone should build a CD player with an SIO connector... it'd act just like a 1010. You'd burn .wav files to CD, then boot the Atari from the CD.

 

It could be something like Beetle's "1001" CF reader, built into a 1010 case. Depending on how the measurements work out, you might have to use a 3.5" CD-ROM drive instead of a full-sized CD, but you could still (maybe?) fit several cassettes on one CD. There would have to be a way to select which CD audio track to play, unless you only wanted to record one cassette on each CD (depending on the length of the tracks, you might have to do it this way anyway... how many minutes of tape is an average Atari game?)

 

It'd still load at cassette speed... but it should be possible to include an audio track on the CD, for cassette programs that use a separate audio track. The motor control line on the SIO port could pause/unpause the CD player.

 

Someone better than me at hardware could do this... in theory, it's pretty simple (in practice, it'd take a good bit of work).

 

It makes almost wish the Atari 8-bits just used standard cassette recorders like the ZX81 or the Starpath Supercharger for the 2600, etc. Since the I/O is just standard mic and headphone jacks, CD players can be used with those systems, at least to load software.

 

But I'm not sure there is enough interest in a project like that. I'm not even all that interested in a CD attachment, the whole point with this thread, for me, is becuase I like using my 1010 and tapes.

[+orpheuswaking]

Gunstar, Sorry to thread hijack, but my question pertains somewhat to the topic at hand and I didn't want to start yet another CAS thread.

 

So here goes.

 

Does anyone have a reliable standalone cassette deck that could be used to copy the tapes onto my computer as WAV files. Either to borrow for a month or two, or I'm willing to pay a small reasonable amount to get this. If you have a cable as well that would be good, but this I can probably source from Radio Shack.

 

Please PM me if you can help so as not to bog down Gunstars thread.

 

Thanks

 

Orpheuswaking

[+kheller2]

For the cd thing... all you need to do is make a regular audio CD with tracks. You would then need a device to use standard audio jacks on the atari.

[Noelio]

Or you could always hack up a 410 or a 1010 and patch a line in jack to the play head leads.

If its a cdr, you could patch in the ins to the record heads.

 

In theory it could work, but no real motor control.

Maybe a CDR virtual cassette breakout box could be made out of the main board from a cassette recorder.

[Urchlay]

Or you could always hack up a 410 or a 1010 and patch a line in jack to the play head leads.

If its a cdr, you could patch in the ins to the record heads.

 

For read-only acess, I suppose you could use one of those "fake cassette" CD player adaptors, for car stereos that only have a tape deck. The only mod you might have to make to the 410/1010 might be to make a notch in the cassette door for the cable to run through.

[Urchlay]

But I'm not sure there is enough interest in a project like that. I'm not even all that interested in a CD attachment, the whole point with this thread, for me, is becuase I like using my 1010 and tapes.

 

Right... and my only interest would be to be able to use downloaded .cas images on real hardware, for which I'd rather not use real cassettes (if only because I own a couple hundred blank CDs and zero blank tapes).

 

So far there's no software I can use with an SIO2PC cable to play .cas images (running Linux, so APE is out of the question). I'd probably be better off adding cassette support to AtariSIO: I'm a lot better at software than I am at hardware, and I wouldn't have to wait for CDs to burn, either.

[classics]

CAS2SIO comes with source, you should be able to compile it for linux without too much effort.

 

Steve

[Urchlay]

CAS2SIO comes with source, you should be able to compile it for linux without too much effort.

 

Well, now that I know it exists

 

Actually it's more than a simple recompile... it uses DOS and PC BIOS specific calls, and direct I/O port access, not portable. Still, it won't be hard to replace with UNIXish I/O calls.

 

Thanks!