Heaven/TQA Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 Cze Eru! it's interesting that you had not Trailblazer in mind? This was my first idea... interesting... But fully appreciated your work! will you publish the source code as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 Well, I have a theory...Having such game on the C64, the "Computerworld" would have given "3D" a new definition. But it's done on the ATARI .... If you know what I mean Yes, you're saying, in a particularly snide and rather petty way, that some people are biased as though that's the trump card that will "win" this discussion when, ironically, people like you wouldn't be shouting about it from the rooftops about how it "[gives] 3D a new definition" if this were a C64 game or a Spectrum game. If you want to talk about bias, you're one of the worst culprits here, emkay. i'd have said exactly the same thing regardless of platform because when the programmers admit they took some of their inspiration from a game that is essentially a 2D version of Trailblazer, when the game plays very similarly to Trailblazer and to a degree even moves like Trailblazer, it's very hard to say it's not like Trailblazer. Because it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 Well, I have a theory...Having such game on the C64, the "Computerworld" would have given "3D" a new definition. But it's done on the ATARI .... If you know what I mean Yes, you're saying, in a particularly snide and rather petty way, that some people are biased as though that's the trump card that will "win" this discussion when, ironically, people like you wouldn't be shouting about it from the rooftops about how it "[gives] 3D a new definition" if this were a C64 game or a Spectrum game. If you want to talk about bias, you're one of the worst culprits here, emkay. In germany we say "der betroffene Hund bellt" . Not sure whether same exists in the english language, it means the "involved dog is barking" ... since you're saying you are not biased... I really wasn't thinking about you here. It was more about guys that create some undefinable textmode video and some noisy mist in the background, saying it's an AMIGA Demo. So C64 is as good as AMIGA Or making images with unusable colours and define them as well "pictures" (and so on) i'd have said exactly the same thing regardless of platform because when the programmers admit they took some of their inspiration from a game that is essentially a 2D version of Trailblazer, when the game plays very similarly to Trailblazer and to a degree even moves like Trailblazer, it's very hard to say it's not like Trailblazer. Because it is. And Turrican is like R-Type? Well, Great Giana Sisters really was like Super Mario. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 In germany we say "der betroffene Hund bellt" . Not sure whether same exists in the english language, it means the "involved dog is barking" ... since you're saying you are not biased... Nope i never said i wasn't biased, only that you are and that trying to say "we're right and they're wrong because they're biased" is a crock of poo; you can't play other peoples' bias as a trump card like that for precisely the reason you've just stated. An English equivalent to that statement (although how far it extends in use i'm not sure) is "the pot calling the kettle black", a reference to when both pots and kettles were suspended over fires and both would blacken on their base. And Turrican is like R-Type?Well, Great Giana Sisters really was like Super Mario. Yes, it's a clone of SMB so of course it's like it! Blimey, were you expecting me to deny it or something because i'm a "biased" C64 bunny? Bugger that, i'll happily admit Giana is a clone of SMB, that Armalyte lifts some backgrounds from Vulcan Venture, Zybex is based loosely on Side Arms, Turrican on Metroid and Katakis is a clone of R-Type (because they got legal letters about it around the time GGS dropped them in the poo) and that's just the ones i can remember right now. Now it's your go; try agreeing that Yoomp is like Trailblazer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eru Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 (edited) it's interesting that you had not Trailblazer in mind? This was my first idea... interesting... But fully appreciated your work! will you publish the source code as well? Ola Heaven, I didn't think about Trailblazer. I think the reason is I never really played the game for more than a couple of minutes. For me, besides fancy graphics, it was not fun at all - it's just soo hard. About the sources - yes, I plan to release them, but I would really love to first make the NTSC version. However, it needs some changes in the code, and I'm out of memory! I just looked into the sources, and it seems, the available memory is (no kidding): $f200..$f27f, and maybe $200..$400 (but then somehow the game is not reset-resistant anymore). 640 bytes. All the rest is mostly filled (except for a few bytes every here and there). So I need to find a method to reduce the memory consumption. Again *sigh*. Oh, and let me finish this silly discussion between TMR, Emkey and others. As the author I state that Yoomp! is like Trailblazer. A bit Edited November 1, 2007 by eru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 Now it's your go; try agreeing that Yoomp is like Trailblazer. To say "the gameplay is at least the same" would implement that the games play almost the same, which is not true. Trailblazer was boring while Yoomp! is a "breathtaking" game. To say "Yoomp is like Trailblazer" would implement that Yoomp is a boring thing. It's like to compare a Tank Duel game (with top 2D view) and Encounter (Ego view 3D like) . The Tank game is boring, while Encounter can be really breathtaking. What about: The gaming idea of a jumping ball is almost the same in both games? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 why do you need more memory for the NTSC version? i would not go for a "joint binary" so like in 2600 go for a ntsc version and a PAL one. you have less cycles per frame...so why not doing like in console games and reduce the resolution? so you save the RAM with the display code? I guess that the msx needs to be adjusted anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GameEngine Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 ... I would really love to first make the NTSC version. Yes, the game is perfect so the only way to improve on your achievement is to extend its user base. Though, if you would like to impress 8-bit Atari fans one more time it is not enough to make NTSC version. It would require you to make it compatibile with older Ataris then 800XL (1983). Were you considering cartridge binary for 16KB Atari 800 (1979/80) or Atari 5200 (1982) ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 Now it's your go; try agreeing that Yoomp is like Trailblazer. To say "the gameplay is at least the same" would implement that the games play almost the same, which is not true. Trailblazer was boring while Yoomp! is a "breathtaking" game. Hmm, so your bias won't let you admit it... not even vaguely surprised to be honest. The fact that you won't or more likely can't say it speaks volumes, far more than your smug little digs at other people over bias do. Trailblazer is considered a classic by a lot of gamers over multiple platforms and frequently appears in top game lists, but just because you don't like it (presumably because it wasn't an Atari game first, i notice that the titles you're referring to as "breathtaking" were all on the Atari first) it's not allowed to be mentioned in the same breath. And yet the game's author can see why comparisons are being drawn... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GameEngine Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 Trailblazer is considered a classic by a lot of gamers over multiple platforms and frequently appears in top game lists, but just because you don't like it (presumably because it wasn't an Atari game first, i notice that the titles you're referring to as "breathtaking" were all on the Atari first) it's not allowed to be mentioned in the same breath. And yet the game's author can see why comparisons are being drawn... I do not like Trailblazer neither. The name is probably derative from 1984 Ballblazer, visuals are similar. Gameplay is like 1982 PolePosition only much worse. Jump! is good game of ~this kind from the year 1986. I am really glad Yoomp! is only a bit like Traiblazer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 ehm.... it's little bit more than "a bit" ? Visuals to Ballblazer are not similar as in Ballblazer except for the "checkboard" imho. you can walk around on the playfield while Trailblazer not... And the comparison of game play with Pole Position? come on... Trailblazer: - Ballsprite - jumping - using/avoiding tiles on the floor - goal of reaching end of level - 3d pseudo fx - ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GameEngine Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 ehm.... it's little bit more than "a bit" ? Visuals to Ballblazer are not similar as in Ballblazer except for the "checkboard" imho. you can walk around on the playfield while Trailblazer not... And the comparison of game play with Pole Position? come on... Trailblazer: - Ballsprite - jumping - using/avoiding tiles on the floor - goal of reaching end of level - 3d pseudo fx - ... There is no jumping in Pole Position but: - controls are left, right faster, slower - the same - avoiding other cars ahead of you - similar - goal of reaching the end as fast as you can - the same - 3d pseudo fx is there, road bends so it is even better (unless you have something else in mind, I could only stand Trailblazer for couple of minutes) and from Ballblazer you have - the name - and checkboard (cheap version, I agree) So it plays like PP and looks somewhat like BB. Overall tha game is nothing new. Execution is mediocre. Nothing to look at. Nothing to play. You bought this game and you are trying to justify money spent ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 Trailblazer is considered a classic by a lot of gamers over multiple platforms and frequently appears in top game lists, but just because you don't like it (presumably because it wasn't an Atari game first, i notice that the titles you're referring to as "breathtaking" were all on the Atari first) it's not allowed to be mentioned in the same breath. And yet the game's author can see why comparisons are being drawn... Just do clarify my "bias" .... Turrican(2) never existed on the A8 and it is a real classic to me. Also R-Type, also Defender of the Crown, also Monkey Island, ..... and so on. I also like real music and I like Chip (incl. SID ) music. Back in the 80s I didn't know Trailblazer wasn't first on the ATARI. But it WAS boring, and like "Gameengine" wrote , I , too, saw some cheap redo of Ballblazer techniques with some jumping ball addons. Yoomp and Trailblazer have the jumping Ball over Tiles in common, but that is all. And, yes, I like Yoomp more because it is done on the A8. But I do not like it by the fact it IS an A8 game. I like it by the fact that it uses the A8 in a way, more A8 games should be done ... (fullscreen ego view with 3D optics) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiassofT Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 Currently I'm stuck at level 14 which is quite hard (at least for an occasional game player like me), and I'm really curious about what levels 15-21 will look like. I just finished level 21 - what a wonderful game! Thanks eru, and of course all others, for this highly addictive program! BTW: Level 14 was the hardest one for me (maybe I haven't yet found the easiest path through the tube). After I mastered this one levels 15-19 were a lot easier and I managed to finish them quite quickly. Level 20 then was too much for me last night (it was late and I already was too tired), so I continued there today :-) Now I'll start over again at the beginning and try to optimize the paths through the tubes :-) so long, and thanks again, Hias Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GameEngine Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 did someone else found the hidden screen? What hidden screen ? Give me a hint please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 ehm.... it's little bit more than "a bit" ? Visuals to Ballblazer are not similar as in Ballblazer except for the "checkboard" imho. you can walk around on the playfield while Trailblazer not... And the comparison of game play with Pole Position? come on... Trailblazer: - Ballsprite - jumping - using/avoiding tiles on the floor - goal of reaching end of level - 3d pseudo fx - ... There is no jumping in Pole Position but: - controls are left, right faster, slower - the same - avoiding other cars ahead of you - similar - goal of reaching the end as fast as you can - the same - 3d pseudo fx is there, road bends so it is even better (unless you have something else in mind, I could only stand Trailblazer for couple of minutes) and from Ballblazer you have - the name - and checkboard (cheap version, I agree) So it plays like PP and looks somewhat like BB. Overall tha game is nothing new. Execution is mediocre. Nothing to look at. Nothing to play. You bought this game and you are trying to justify money spent ? - Trailblazer does not have enemies... so i can not see that topic being similar to PP. - road vs trail... ehm... i haven't compared PP with TB so why not compare it with f.e. International Karate or Ultima 4? I do not agree that TB plays like PP. And as far as I remember i bought TB but that's not the point. I just pointed out that I can not see much similarities between PP & TB...the first is a racing game while the second is an kind of Jump & Run... same to Ballblazer which is a 2 player vs sports game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allas Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 (edited) - Trailblazer does not have enemies... so i can not see that topic being similar to PP. I think, it seems more to Pole Position 2 After a long deliberate in this post topic, we finally will say that all 8bit games seems at Star Raiders. Edited November 2, 2007 by Allas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GameEngine Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 - Trailblazer does not have enemies... so i can not see that topic being similar to PP. Enemies in PP have as much AI as holes (missing tiles) in TB. You just pass them from left or right (in TB also over the top, I know). I do not agree that TB plays like PP. And as far as I remember i bought TB but that's not the point. I just pointed out that I can not see much similarities between PP & TB...the first is a racing game while the second is an kind of Jump & Run... same to Ballblazer which is a 2 player vs sports game. You race against time. Slowing down the ball is like breaking on a slippery road. You need to think in advance if the speed is ok depending what is in front of you. All very much like in early driving games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eru Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 ... I would really love to first make the NTSC version. Yes, the game is perfect so the only way to improve on your achievement is to extend its user base. Though, if you would like to impress 8-bit Atari fans one more time it is not enough to make NTSC version. It would require you to make it compatibile with older Ataris then 800XL (1983). Were you considering cartridge binary for 16KB Atari 800 (1979/80) or Atari 5200 (1982) ? I don't want to impress anyone, at least not by slight Yoomp! improvements. I just want the NTSC-Atarians to be able to enjoy the game on their machines. And I'm afraid it's impossible with 16KB memory. Even if the code is on a cartridge, we need 16KB for texture memory only. It can probably be done by making the graphics worse, but I don't think it's worth it. If someone is interested in porting the engine, go ahead, the basic ideas are roughly explained above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted November 3, 2007 Share Posted November 3, 2007 crash in Yoomp level 12? Hi folks. I did not want to start a new topic, to get all the info in this topic, but I hope this post won't get lost in space. Yesterday I've played yoomp for an hour and I got in Level 12. And then I retried it a few times, and suddenly (more at the end of the level) the atari crashed!!! i got all kind of colorfull lines (moving/flashing) on my screen. Like you also see on depacking but then faster. Was this a crash of my hardware or is it possibly a bug in that level? It is hard to reproduce this problem again. I remember I was on the right side of the tube, more at the end. As far as I remember I did fall in such a teleport-gate and then it happened. But i'm not sure. It even could be level 11 or 13... but I thought it was 12. It hapened in a light-green level. My hardware: Atari 800xl 256KB (PAL) Eprom: Qmeg OS 4.04 I'm playing the game from SpartaDOS (MicroSpartaDOS binary loader) Marius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted November 3, 2007 Share Posted November 3, 2007 Just do clarify my "bias" .... Turrican(2) never existed on the A8 and it is a real classic to me. It was more sarcasm at you snide little digs at people who don't immediately declare Yoomp a classic because it's an Atari game rather than another format. But it does prove a point at least to you, doesn't it really suck to be pidgeonholed like that? Try not doing it to other people in future, then. Back in the 80s I didn't know Trailblazer wasn't first on the ATARI. But it WAS boring The C16 version of Trailblazer was the first and, considering how slowly American games were imported to the UK, may well have been written before the author had seen Ballblazer, has an average user score of 8.5/10 from the folks at Plus/4 World. The C64 port (which adds the two player split screen that wasn't in the original, another indication that Ballblazer might not have been a direct influence) received an overall score of 93% from Zzap 64, presently has a user-voted Zzapback score of 88% on Zzap64.co.uk and Lemon64 users have given it 7.6/10 and the review there scores it 8/10. For the Spectrum version, Crash scored it 88% whilst users of World Of Spectrum have scored it 7.2/10. CPC Game Reviews gives it 9/10, Amstrad Action gave it 86% and on both Z80 platforms the reviews were positive with the CPC winning awards from all three of it's mainstream magazines. AtariArea has a user score of 8.5/10, ironically giving it a better score than the C64 or Spectrum people and the same as the 264 folks. And you say it's boring... think i'll go with the opinions of the two or three hundred people involved in those votes and reviews. Yoomp and Trailblazer have the jumping Ball over Tiles in common, but that is all. That's the base game mechanic right there; the 3D projection is secondary to that element. If there are vast differences i've yet to see a list that i could take seriously, And i've yet to see anyone claim that Trailblazer was an original game, chances are it's an attempt to do Bounder (from the same publisher but prior to or the same year as everything else in this thread) in pseudo 3D. Being original doesn't make a good game, otherwise we'd all love Wicked on the Amiga... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted November 3, 2007 Share Posted November 3, 2007 i had several hours of fun with trailblazer... and even with the Atari version. but didnt know that it appeared first on c16. btw. what about Dimension X... unfluence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eru Posted November 3, 2007 Share Posted November 3, 2007 crash in Yoomp level 12? Hi folks. I did not want to start a new topic, to get all the info in this topic, but I hope this post won't get lost in space. ... i got all kind of colorfull lines (moving/flashing) on my screen. Like you also see on depacking but then faster. ... Hi Marius, That's very weird - what you got was most probably an internal check to verify that the tunnel manages to render in 2 frames. We have seen this happening in the early stages of the development a lot, but not in the last months, so I'm very surprised you got it. The thing is, Yoomp is just managing to render in 2 frames, and if a few things that can slightly increase the execution time in a particular moment, it might not make it in time. But, like I said, it's been months since we saw it, and with all the people playing with it, it's surprising it happened only once. In the 1.1 version I will try to speed something up a bit, to minimize the probability of it. If this (or something) similar happens to anyone on an emulator, please, send me a save file (A8S). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted November 3, 2007 Share Posted November 3, 2007 Let's not forget Rainbow Walker, although it was more of a run/jump type game. Great game in it's time, but like so many good games had a totally crappy ending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted November 3, 2007 Share Posted November 3, 2007 Rybags... a Synapse Classic! love the msx and the style of the game...it was very unique. kind of 3d qbert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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