Atari Jaguar VS Sega Saturn

[phuzaxeman]

yeah tell us how the saturn can't do trevor.

 

 

A cold hard fact that makes this particular sega drone cry himself to sleep at night.

 

I did say the game sucked.

 

Again my statements are being misinterpreted. Im telling you that a reworked

BM or HS engine that runs on the RISCs only, will do a decent version of any

of those games. Less polies perhaps but a 30 FPS frame rate. RS is actually

using speedier microcode too and the polycounts do look a bit higher than the

typical N64 game. They are definitely two of the nicer games for the N64.

 

The microcode also corrects a lot of lighting issues and it really is a nice job

by the dev team. They also did a really good job of overcomming the 4k

texure ram limits..a big reason all the N64 games textures for the most part

are horid ly blurred.

 

RS uses a texture streaming technique which allows cart space to act (kinda)

like extra texture ram(its a steaming kind of set up the way the do it.) Kudos

to the developers all the way. this is not at all a put down on them. It's not even

such on the N64...Im just telling you what I know based on the information easily

finable all over the I-net.

 

The Jag wont EVER push as much on the screen but I can be clever and do

something similar enough to make you see that for all the technological

advances inside the N64 the end result is not all that impressive.

 

It could have competed closer to the DC ( not real close though) if Nintendo

allowed the Turbo 3D microcode which would have allowed 300-500,000

polies with a few less effects. That is the code they should have gone with.

 

Why they did this, I'll never know. I think Nintendo may have held this code as an

ace in the whole to kick the N64 incase of stiff comp. I think also that blew this idea

off realizing that the Cart nature of the N64 was greatly limiting what developers

could do and hence went on to the GAME CUBE instead. My guess only.

 

Also, if you look a good deal of the N64 games you will see a lot of sneaky G-shading

going on that tends to go unoticed becasue it is done tastfully and in the right places.

The reason for this is that the texture buffer is only 4 kilobytes. High color textures

eat that up very fast and is why you see all that stretching and blurring.

 

 

So everyone chill...the N64 is a superior machine but a disappointment in many ways.

The Jaguar is 5 years older tech, almost one quarter the system clock, and no tools

useful to pull the real power from it remember.

 

 

You've not sen the best on the Jaguar yet. we'll do out best...hey come on, tell me any of

you guys would not like to see a much improved game on the Jaguar? hang tight.

We're working on it.

 

 

Also remember, in the Jaguar, you have full acess to micro code. There is no top layer

like in the nintendo.

1st off, you're posting this n64 stuff in the wrong thread (should be under n64 vs jaguar).

 

2nd, and for the million and one time, the stock jaguar CANNOT do a COMPLETE decent version of rogue squadron or naboo ever! never will, never can, how many people need to tell you that? you call the n64 graphics blurred but what does that leave jag?

[andym00]

yeah tell us how the saturn can't do trevor.

 

 

A cold hard fact that makes this particular sega drone cry himself to sleep at night.

 

I did say the game sucked.

 

Again my statements are being misinterpreted. Im telling you that a reworked

BM or HS engine that runs on the RISCs only, will do a decent version of any

of those games. Less polies perhaps but a 30 FPS frame rate. RS is actually

using speedier microcode too and the polycounts do look a bit higher than the

typical N64 game. They are definitely two of the nicer games for the N64.

 

The microcode also corrects a lot of lighting issues and it really is a nice job

by the dev team. They also did a really good job of overcomming the 4k

texure ram limits..a big reason all the N64 games textures for the most part

are horid ly blurred.

 

RS uses a texture streaming technique which allows cart space to act (kinda)

like extra texture ram(its a steaming kind of set up the way the do it.) Kudos

to the developers all the way. this is not at all a put down on them. It's not even

such on the N64...Im just telling you what I know based on the information easily

finable all over the I-net.

 

The Jag wont EVER push as much on the screen but I can be clever and do

something similar enough to make you see that for all the technological

advances inside the N64 the end result is not all that impressive.

 

It could have competed closer to the DC ( not real close though) if Nintendo

allowed the Turbo 3D microcode which would have allowed 300-500,000

polies with a few less effects. That is the code they should have gone with.

 

Why they did this, I'll never know. I think Nintendo may have held this code as an

ace in the whole to kick the N64 incase of stiff comp. I think also that blew this idea

off realizing that the Cart nature of the N64 was greatly limiting what developers

could do and hence went on to the GAME CUBE instead. My guess only.

 

Also, if you look a good deal of the N64 games you will see a lot of sneaky G-shading

going on that tends to go unoticed becasue it is done tastfully and in the right places.

The reason for this is that the texture buffer is only 4 kilobytes. High color textures

eat that up very fast and is why you see all that stretching and blurring.

 

 

So everyone chill...the N64 is a superior machine but a disappointment in many ways.

The Jaguar is 5 years older tech, almost one quarter the system clock, and no tools

useful to pull the real power from it remember.

 

 

You've not sen the best on the Jaguar yet. we'll do out best...hey come on, tell me any of

you guys would not like to see a much improved game on the Jaguar? hang tight.

We're working on it.

 

 

Also remember, in the Jaguar, you have full acess to micro code. There is no top layer

like in the nintendo.

 

Nice cut'n'paste of the N64 Wiki page there Gorf.. Not doing yourself any favours now..

Plus, as far as I know, you have no access to microcode on the Jag Riscs.. Or is this something else

you've discovered that even Atari didn't know about ?

[Gorf]

yeah tell us how the saturn can't do trevor.

 

 

A cold hard fact that makes this particular sega drone cry himself to sleep at night.

 

I did say the game sucked.

 

Again my statements are being misinterpreted. Im telling you that a reworked

BM or HS engine that runs on the RISCs only, will do a decent version of any

of those games. Less polies perhaps but a 30 FPS frame rate. RS is actually

using speedier microcode too and the polycounts do look a bit higher than the

typical N64 game. They are definitely two of the nicer games for the N64.

 

The microcode also corrects a lot of lighting issues and it really is a nice job

by the dev team. They also did a really good job of overcomming the 4k

texure ram limits..a big reason all the N64 games textures for the most part

are horid ly blurred.

 

RS uses a texture streaming technique which allows cart space to act (kinda)

like extra texture ram(its a steaming kind of set up the way the do it.) Kudos

to the developers all the way. this is not at all a put down on them. It's not even

such on the N64...Im just telling you what I know based on the information easily

finable all over the I-net.

 

The Jag wont EVER push as much on the screen but I can be clever and do

something similar enough to make you see that for all the technological

advances inside the N64 the end result is not all that impressive.

 

It could have competed closer to the DC ( not real close though) if Nintendo

allowed the Turbo 3D microcode which would have allowed 300-500,000

polies with a few less effects. That is the code they should have gone with.

 

Why they did this, I'll never know. I think Nintendo may have held this code as an

ace in the whole to kick the N64 incase of stiff comp. I think also that blew this idea

off realizing that the Cart nature of the N64 was greatly limiting what developers

could do and hence went on to the GAME CUBE instead. My guess only.

 

Also, if you look a good deal of the N64 games you will see a lot of sneaky G-shading

going on that tends to go unoticed becasue it is done tastfully and in the right places.

The reason for this is that the texture buffer is only 4 kilobytes. High color textures

eat that up very fast and is why you see all that stretching and blurring.

 

 

So everyone chill...the N64 is a superior machine but a disappointment in many ways.

The Jaguar is 5 years older tech, almost one quarter the system clock, and no tools

useful to pull the real power from it remember.

 

 

You've not sen the best on the Jaguar yet. we'll do out best...hey come on, tell me any of

you guys would not like to see a much improved game on the Jaguar? hang tight.

We're working on it.

 

 

Also remember, in the Jaguar, you have full acess to micro code. There is no top layer

like in the nintendo.

1st off, you're posting this n64 stuff in the wrong thread (should be under n64 vs jaguar).

 

2nd, and for the million and one time, the stock jaguar CANNOT do a COMPLETE decent version of rogue squadron or naboo ever! never will, never can, how many people need to tell you that? you call the n64 graphics blurred but what does that leave jag?

 

That is based on opinions of NON develpers and gamers. Forgive me if your armchair expertise

is unconvincing to me. I still have not seen other coders dispute me....why...they understand that

what Im saying is accurate and can be looked up anywhere. You have'nt the foggiest clue what's left

under the hood of the Jaguar, yet you come here acting like you know everything about it. I use facts

and figures while you base your sarcastic smarmy remarks on screen shots and opinion.

 

Prove with your vast knowledge beyond the shadow of a doubt with facts and figures that the Jaguar

can't do this. Otherwise keep your clearly ignorant remarks to yourself.

 

Thank you.

 

 

also...my guess is you will be the last to appologize if I were to make you look silly with an app

on the Jaguar that proves what I've been saying....if you bother to appologize at all.

[phuzaxeman]

yeah tell us how the saturn can't do trevor.

 

 

A cold hard fact that makes this particular sega drone cry himself to sleep at night.

 

I did say the game sucked.

 

Again my statements are being misinterpreted. Im telling you that a reworked

BM or HS engine that runs on the RISCs only, will do a decent version of any

of those games. Less polies perhaps but a 30 FPS frame rate. RS is actually

using speedier microcode too and the polycounts do look a bit higher than the

typical N64 game. They are definitely two of the nicer games for the N64.

 

The microcode also corrects a lot of lighting issues and it really is a nice job

by the dev team. They also did a really good job of overcomming the 4k

texure ram limits..a big reason all the N64 games textures for the most part

are horid ly blurred.

 

RS uses a texture streaming technique which allows cart space to act (kinda)

like extra texture ram(its a steaming kind of set up the way the do it.) Kudos

to the developers all the way. this is not at all a put down on them. It's not even

such on the N64...Im just telling you what I know based on the information easily

finable all over the I-net.

 

The Jag wont EVER push as much on the screen but I can be clever and do

something similar enough to make you see that for all the technological

advances inside the N64 the end result is not all that impressive.

 

It could have competed closer to the DC ( not real close though) if Nintendo

allowed the Turbo 3D microcode which would have allowed 300-500,000

polies with a few less effects. That is the code they should have gone with.

 

Why they did this, I'll never know. I think Nintendo may have held this code as an

ace in the whole to kick the N64 incase of stiff comp. I think also that blew this idea

off realizing that the Cart nature of the N64 was greatly limiting what developers

could do and hence went on to the GAME CUBE instead. My guess only.

 

Also, if you look a good deal of the N64 games you will see a lot of sneaky G-shading

going on that tends to go unoticed becasue it is done tastfully and in the right places.

The reason for this is that the texture buffer is only 4 kilobytes. High color textures

eat that up very fast and is why you see all that stretching and blurring.

 

 

So everyone chill...the N64 is a superior machine but a disappointment in many ways.

The Jaguar is 5 years older tech, almost one quarter the system clock, and no tools

useful to pull the real power from it remember.

 

 

You've not sen the best on the Jaguar yet. we'll do out best...hey come on, tell me any of

you guys would not like to see a much improved game on the Jaguar? hang tight.

We're working on it.

 

 

Also remember, in the Jaguar, you have full acess to micro code. There is no top layer

like in the nintendo.

 

Nice cut'n'paste of the N64 Wiki page there Gorf.. Not doing yourself any favours now..

Plus, as far as I know, you have no access to microcode on the Jag Riscs.. Or is this something else

you've discovered that even Atari didn't know about ?

 

right?

[spiffyone]

You'd have to be blind to not notice the differences between X-men Cota, Megaman 8, and Megaman X4 on Saturn and PSX.

Add in the ram carts, and then compare King of Fighters 95, Vampire Savior, and the Capcom Vs. games that were released on both systems.

One systems library featured smaller sprites and almost half the animation, I'll let you guess which one.

 

Another blow it out of proportioner! lol Yes, I admit the Saturn versions look """SLIGHTLY"""better...BUT NOT """GREATLY""" AS YOU SEGA DRONES WOULD LEAD PEOPLE TO BELIEVE!!! Just go look through gaming mags from the mid to late 90's....none of the experienced reviews EVER claimed the differences were in any way VAST...but only usually... MINUTE...!!!

 

 

That's B.S. right there.

 

A lot of the reviewers stated that the Saturn versions were better than the PSone versions. A lot of the reviewers stated that Saturn was a 2D powerhouse compared to PSone. And most, if not all, of the 2D fighting games that were ported to both Saturn and PSone were rated higher on Saturn.

 

That's just facts.

 

You can scream "Sega fanboys" to the end of days, but the fact is that multiconsole gamers (like myself) can tell the difference, reviewers (those who weren't at PSM) could tell the difference, and it was a rather sizable difference.

 

Sorry if that shatters your PSone centric world.

 

And, yes, now I'm calling YOU a fanboy. Because you are clearly acting like one. "Facts? What facts? I don't see no stinkin' facts!" is basically the gist of your "point", even though the facts are clearly there.

 

Animation cuts don't matter to you. Missing features in the game don't matter to you either. Did you know that the PSone version of games with tagging didn't have the tagging? Did you know that SFA3 on PSone had the 3 player fight mode cut in that you could only pick two distinct characters instead of three? Probably not, because you obviously don't know, or don't care to know about such things.

 

Again, sorry to burst your bubble.

 

Saturn rapes PSone in terms of 2D sprite based games.

 

I know it. Reviewers know it. You don't. But maybe when the smell of Sony's balls are off your face you'll be able to get a whiff of reality.

[Gorf]

Nice cut'n'paste of the N64 Wiki page there Gorf.. Not doing yourself any favours now..

Plus, as far as I know, you have no access to microcode on the Jag Riscs.. Or is this something else

you've discovered that even Atari didn't know about ?

 

Cut and paste of wiki? I guess than wiki is accurate in this case then...

 

You are going to find out in a second that it is you not doing yourself any favors.

 

Here dispute this....

 

There are many other places on the net you can find this other than wiki. Perhaps

you should have some evidence of me cutting and pasting things before accusing?

 

Here is some free education for you.

 

The instructions in most typical RISC proceesors ARE the micro code...In a CISC, the

instructions are made up of several microcoded instructions........go look up a typical

RISC operation AGAIN before putting your foot in your mouth.

 

Here.... read....learn....remove foot from mouth. This is RISC Versus CISC.

http://www.heyrick.co.uk/assembler/riscvcisc.html

 

The N64 did not allow the programmers to go near that. Some did inspite of Nintendo and is

why you have games as clean as RS. The tools Nintendo supplied offered no such support.

You used an instruction set of Nintendo. There were two. Fast 3D code and Turbo 3D code.

 

LA concerning the microcode and EVERYTHING I just explained....tell them they are not doing themselves any favors.

http://ign64.ign.com/articles/087/087602p1.html

 

The nintendo uses a custom microcode. It is not buried in the processor. It is on an out board rom as

a bitstream that is uploaded to the proceesors microcode area.

 

Some RISC's are and some RISC's are not. These are the lowest level of operations

electronically. Do you realize that a Pentium is really just a RISC core with an 80xxx compatible

instruction interpreter? Yes, it sees a intel instruction and 'interprets' it into the risc low level.

 

The RISC instructions in the Jaguar ARE the lowest level you can achive and is decoded directly

to the circuitry. There is no layer of interpretation between it and the core's execution unit.

The Jaguar microcode is not RAM uploadable.

 

These are hardwired into the very core of the circuitry on the lowest level. I have the nets.

You can have them too and see for yourself. See Atari Museum. If you can understand them

that is.

 

 

Now...with all that said...all you do it say this and that and Im a this and not doing myself any favors...

but tell me what other than nothing did you bring to the table in the way of evidence?

Oooops....you didnt....Whooopsies!

[Gorf]

right?

 

Just what I'd expect from an armchair expert. See previous post to see your foot in

andymoos mouth along with his own.

 

A little research can save you a lot of embarassment. Laziness profits you zilch!

Edited August 5, 2007 by Gorf

[spiffyone]

Well most people that bought these fighting games WEREN'T hardcore fighting game freaks I guarantee you. So most people didn't give a shit if it was arcade exact...They were still fun, unless you're a super nit-picky...well you know.

 

So your "argument" is that since the majority of gamers are clueless (in your opinion, mind you) the technical superiority of Saturn over Playstation in this regard should be ignored.

 

Wow.

 

What a shitty "argument".

 

PS arcade fighting games weren't "BAD" ports as you say, that's ridiculous...they were plenty GOOD, just maybe not as exact as the Saturn ports... OK?

 

Missing frames of animation that cut out combos from the game. Longer load times. Missing sound in some cases. In terms of X-Men vs. Street Fighter no tagging. Wait...no...there is tagging in the PSone version, but not in the one player arcade mode. Why? Because the "special" mode in the PSone version you can only play against opponents that are the same characters as your team (palette swaps). The Saturn version? Tagging in arcade mode, because the Saturn can handle four distinct characters on screen.

 

Those are all the markings of bad ports. See, you can't have a fighting game in which the focus was on tag team fighting all of a sudden not have tags. That's a huge missing part of the game. You can't have fighting games, which are focused on combos, have missing combos because of those missing frames of animation.

 

Those are marks of bad ports.

 

 

And lol @ you think you're bursting my bubble by saying the Saturn is better at 2d than the PS...NO DUH! I've never said the PS was better...I just said the PS isn't as far behind the Saturn at 2d than people like yourself like to dream up. "OMG Saturn fighting games have barely more frames of animation, even though the actual graphics are exactly the same!!! But the Saturn is light years ahead of the PS in 2d... " You Saturn guys tend to be really fanatical about 2d Saturn games cus you know the PS just kicked the Saturn's ass all over the place in the majority of games...

 

Again, screaming "fanboys" to the heavens doesn't help your "argument" in the slightest.

 

You do know that part of graphics power is how well (fast) the graphics run, right? You do know that part of graphical power is how many distinct objects you can have on screen, right? Or how large they are? Or how they animate?

 

Oh, you didn't?

 

Well that's obvious. Your entire "argument" is based on "in screenshots they look the same, so they have the same graphics".

 

Sorry to burst your bubble again (and, yes, it seems I am bursting your bubble) but if theSaturn versions have sprites that are larger, and/or run better, and/or have more distinct characters on screen at once, and/or more animations than the PSone versions, the Saturn versions are better hands down.

 

The Playstation's 3d games' graphics were a much bigger leap in quality over the Saturn than the Saturn's 2d games were over the PS's.

 

No, not really. Hard to compare the two because 3D and 2D are so very different.

 

At the very least Saturn had 3D games that were ported from the arcades and PC that nearly matched the originals. PSone didn't have that with the 2D games, with the exception of the last 2D fighter released, SFA3 (and even that was bested by the Saturn version).

 

....Hence why the Playstation obliterated the Saturn in the sales department and Sony became the new Nintendo in 1995 until now!

 

Had nothing to do with that, really.

 

Power wise they weren't that far apart. PSone might've been able to run better 2D games with more VRAM in there (maybe). Saturn might've been able to run better 3D games with really proper tools and an easier dev environment.

 

But the fact is that Sony won that gen mainly because of the single CPU, single GPU system architecture and the easiest to work with tools in the business at that point.

 

Developers flocked to the console because it was easy to develop on and had enough power to have really good looking games. Why sweat over detail in assembly on Saturn, or have crappy looking games that only used one of the Saturn processors or sweat over microcode on N64 when one could just use C programming skills to get something really nice up and running on PSone while having to deal with the lowest royalty fees as well (Sony's was less than Sega's and Nintendo's)?

 

Developers flock to a system, more games are made, more possible product for consumers to buy, more hardware sold. Rinse, lather, repeat. It isn't rocket science.

 

Maybe now Sony's time at the top has run out, but the fact remains the Playstation pummeled Sega into the shithouse.

 

Sega didn't need Sony's help in that regard. They pummeled themselves to the shithouse pretty fine with Sega CD and 32X (and Nomad, etc., etc., etc.), releasing Saturn at too high a price, too early in the US (surprise launch certainly surprised retailers and developers, but not in a good way), and making it a bitch to develop for.

 

Sega was doomed that gen from the get go, tbqh. Hell, they were already hundreds of millions in the hole at that point.

 

Hardcore guys like you only like to see the hardcore side of things. But the majority of gamers only care about lots of fun games, and the PS had a lot more fun games than the Saturn. Atleast in the US. I know the Japanese were/are crazy for the Saturn, but anyways thats another story.

 

And that has to do with the topic HOW, exactly?

 

Oh, that's right, it doesn't have anything to do with the topic.

 

The topic is about power. Not how fun the games are.

 

You wanted me to show you games where it was clear Saturn had it up on PSone, I showed you. You don't like it? Too bad.

 

And you're retarded for calling me childish because I say LOL...gimme a break. You need to lighten up mr. hardcore saturn fighting game FREAK! Most fighting games get old real quick anyway... Not my fav genre.

 

I called you childish because you're acting in such a way. You aren't making any good points at all, you're not dealing in facts, you're not showing any proof at all to support your "arguments". Every thing seems to be "lol because I say so" with you, and covering your ears when facts are stated. One wonders if you're just trolling the topic, which could in fact be it (and it wouldn't be "good" trolling, as "good" trolls win one now and again to better conceal themselves).

 

BTW, calling someone "retarded" on a message board doesn't exactly help prove that you aren't childish. Just FYI on that one.

 

And, again, whether or not you like the genre doesn't matter to the topic at hand. It is about power, not likes or dislikes.

[Gorf]

 

ACE's. That is the trouble here. Im still waiting for ANYONE to dispute what I said

with facts about the N64 and its internal workings and it major league design

flaws and limitations. I guess the insults and ridicule will continue until you do

find it....Im mean how else can you out smart those who do know better and

back up what they present with facts.

Edited August 5, 2007 by Gorf

[kevincal]

You'd have to be blind to not notice the differences between X-men Cota, Megaman 8, and Megaman X4 on Saturn and PSX.

Add in the ram carts, and then compare King of Fighters 95, Vampire Savior, and the Capcom Vs. games that were released on both systems.

One systems library featured smaller sprites and almost half the animation, I'll let you guess which one.

 

Another blow it out of proportioner! lol Yes, I admit the Saturn versions look """SLIGHTLY"""better...BUT NOT """GREATLY""" AS YOU SEGA DRONES WOULD LEAD PEOPLE TO BELIEVE!!! Just go look through gaming mags from the mid to late 90's....none of the experienced reviews EVER claimed the differences were in any way VAST...but only usually... MINUTE...!!!

 

 

That's B.S. right there.

 

A lot of the reviewers stated that the Saturn versions were better than the PSone versions. A lot of the reviewers stated that Saturn was a 2D powerhouse compared to PSone. And most, if not all, of the 2D fighting games that were ported to both Saturn and PSone were rated higher on Saturn.

 

That's just facts.

 

You can scream "Sega fanboys" to the end of days, but the fact is that multiconsole gamers (like myself) can tell the difference, reviewers (those who weren't at PSM) could tell the difference, and it was a rather sizable difference.

 

Sorry if that shatters your PSone centric world.

 

And, yes, now I'm calling YOU a fanboy. Because you are clearly acting like one. "Facts? What facts? I don't see no stinkin' facts!" is basically the gist of your "point", even though the facts are clearly there.

 

Animation cuts don't matter to you. Missing features in the game don't matter to you either. Did you know that the PSone version of games with tagging didn't have the tagging? Did you know that SFA3 on PSone had the 3 player fight mode cut in that you could only pick two distinct characters instead of three? Probably not, because you obviously don't know, or don't care to know about such things.

 

Again, sorry to burst your bubble.

 

Saturn rapes PSone in terms of 2D sprite based games.

 

I know it. Reviewers know it. You don't. But maybe when the smell of Sony's balls are off your face you'll be able to get a whiff of reality.

 

MY GOD, do you have a problem reading what I type!??!!?!?!? I HAVE ADMITTED OVER AND OVER THE SATURN VERSIONS ARE BETTER!!!! BUT SLIGHTLY. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD... YA MOST OF THE SAME 2D GAMES WERE RATED HIGHER ON THE SATURN BUT NOT BY A LOT!!!!!!! THAT'S THE POINT i'VE BEEN TRYING TO MAKE THIS WHOLE TIME...MY GODDD... Ya the SAturn is a 2d powerhouse, but the PS ain't exactly no slouch compared to the Saturn thus the Saturn IS NOT a powerhouse compared to the PS!!!! You could say it was a 2D powerhouse compared to the N64 or 3DO or something... You're just a freaking Saturn fanboy, they are the most annoying kind...Like short mans syndrome for gaming consoles you lot are... The people spoke long ago and the Playstation clearly kicked the Saturn's ass so don't try to tell me it's better cus it's far from that... and lol @ "DID YOU KNOW THERE'S NO TAG IN SFA3!?!??! " omfg!!! BIG DEAL!!! HAHA only some hardcore SFA3 dork who pumped $100's of dollars into the arcade version would really give a damn...You aren't thinking of the big picture buddy... Saturn doesn't "RAPE" the PS in 2d you are dreaming. It's better but it's far from raping, you freaking obvious fanboy!!! lol I have all my mags from the 90's and I remember reading through almost all of them and whenever the Saturn and PS had the exact same game reviewed most of the time the scored were pretty much exactly the same. Sometimes I even remember the PS version of a 2d games getting higher score and even though the Saturn probably had more 2d games rated high, it was only a very small amount like:

 

Street Fighter Alpha: PS = 95 Saturn = 96

 

You get my drift? Don't bother responding...Try to read my posts a little bit more carefully because you keep taking my words out of context or ignoring them altogether... Let me say it again...

I HAVE ALWAYS ADMITTED THE SATURN IS A BIT BETTER AT 2D THAN THE PLAYSTATION, BUT NOT AS MUCH AS MAJOR SEGA SATURN GEEKY FANBOY LIKE YOU WOULD LIKE TO DREAM UP!!!

Edited August 5, 2007 by kevincal

[kevincal]

Well most people that bought these fighting games WEREN'T hardcore fighting game freaks I guarantee you. So most people didn't give a shit if it was arcade exact...They were still fun, unless you're a super nit-picky...well you know.

 

So your "argument" is that since the majority of gamers are clueless (in your opinion, mind you) the technical superiority of Saturn over Playstation in this regard should be ignored.

 

Wow.

 

What a shitty "argument".

 

PS arcade fighting games weren't "BAD" ports as you say, that's ridiculous...they were plenty GOOD, just maybe not as exact as the Saturn ports... OK?

 

Missing frames of animation that cut out combos from the game. Longer load times. Missing sound in some cases. In terms of X-Men vs. Street Fighter no tagging. Wait...no...there is tagging in the PSone version, but not in the one player arcade mode. Why? Because the "special" mode in the PSone version you can only play against opponents that are the same characters as your team (palette swaps). The Saturn version? Tagging in arcade mode, because the Saturn can handle four distinct characters on screen.

 

Those are all the markings of bad ports. See, you can't have a fighting game in which the focus was on tag team fighting all of a sudden not have tags. That's a huge missing part of the game. You can't have fighting games, which are focused on combos, have missing combos because of those missing frames of animation.

 

Those are marks of bad ports.

 

 

And lol @ you think you're bursting my bubble by saying the Saturn is better at 2d than the PS...NO DUH! I've never said the PS was better...I just said the PS isn't as far behind the Saturn at 2d than people like yourself like to dream up. "OMG Saturn fighting games have barely more frames of animation, even though the actual graphics are exactly the same!!! But the Saturn is light years ahead of the PS in 2d... " You Saturn guys tend to be really fanatical about 2d Saturn games cus you know the PS just kicked the Saturn's ass all over the place in the majority of games...

 

Again, screaming "fanboys" to the heavens doesn't help your "argument" in the slightest.

 

You do know that part of graphics power is how well (fast) the graphics run, right? You do know that part of graphical power is how many distinct objects you can have on screen, right? Or how large they are? Or how they animate?

 

Oh, you didn't?

 

Well that's obvious. Your entire "argument" is based on "in screenshots they look the same, so they have the same graphics".

 

Sorry to burst your bubble again (and, yes, it seems I am bursting your bubble) but if theSaturn versions have sprites that are larger, and/or run better, and/or have more distinct characters on screen at once, and/or more animations than the PSone versions, the Saturn versions are better hands down.

 

The Playstation's 3d games' graphics were a much bigger leap in quality over the Saturn than the Saturn's 2d games were over the PS's.

 

No, not really. Hard to compare the two because 3D and 2D are so very different.

 

At the very least Saturn had 3D games that were ported from the arcades and PC that nearly matched the originals. PSone didn't have that with the 2D games, with the exception of the last 2D fighter released, SFA3 (and even that was bested by the Saturn version).

 

....Hence why the Playstation obliterated the Saturn in the sales department and Sony became the new Nintendo in 1995 until now!

 

Had nothing to do with that, really.

 

Power wise they weren't that far apart. PSone might've been able to run better 2D games with more VRAM in there (maybe). Saturn might've been able to run better 3D games with really proper tools and an easier dev environment.

 

But the fact is that Sony won that gen mainly because of the single CPU, single GPU system architecture and the easiest to work with tools in the business at that point.

 

Developers flocked to the console because it was easy to develop on and had enough power to have really good looking games. Why sweat over detail in assembly on Saturn, or have crappy looking games that only used one of the Saturn processors or sweat over microcode on N64 when one could just use C programming skills to get something really nice up and running on PSone while having to deal with the lowest royalty fees as well (Sony's was less than Sega's and Nintendo's)?

 

Developers flock to a system, more games are made, more possible product for consumers to buy, more hardware sold. Rinse, lather, repeat. It isn't rocket science.

 

Maybe now Sony's time at the top has run out, but the fact remains the Playstation pummeled Sega into the shithouse.

 

Sega didn't need Sony's help in that regard. They pummeled themselves to the shithouse pretty fine with Sega CD and 32X (and Nomad, etc., etc., etc.), releasing Saturn at too high a price, too early in the US (surprise launch certainly surprised retailers and developers, but not in a good way), and making it a bitch to develop for.

 

Sega was doomed that gen from the get go, tbqh. Hell, they were already hundreds of millions in the hole at that point.

 

Hardcore guys like you only like to see the hardcore side of things. But the majority of gamers only care about lots of fun games, and the PS had a lot more fun games than the Saturn. Atleast in the US. I know the Japanese were/are crazy for the Saturn, but anyways thats another story.

 

And that has to do with the topic HOW, exactly?

 

Oh, that's right, it doesn't have anything to do with the topic.

 

The topic is about power. Not how fun the games are.

 

You wanted me to show you games where it was clear Saturn had it up on PSone, I showed you. You don't like it? Too bad.

 

And you're retarded for calling me childish because I say LOL...gimme a break. You need to lighten up mr. hardcore saturn fighting game FREAK! Most fighting games get old real quick anyway... Not my fav genre.

 

I called you childish because you're acting in such a way. You aren't making any good points at all, you're not dealing in facts, you're not showing any proof at all to support your "arguments". Every thing seems to be "lol because I say so" with you, and covering your ears when facts are stated. One wonders if you're just trolling the topic, which could in fact be it (and it wouldn't be "good" trolling, as "good" trolls win one now and again to better conceal themselves).

 

BTW, calling someone "retarded" on a message board doesn't exactly help prove that you aren't childish. Just FYI on that one.

 

And, again, whether or not you like the genre doesn't matter to the topic at hand. It is about power, not likes or dislikes.

 

I wouldn't go as far as to say the majority of gamers are clueless. Maybe it's more like the majority of gamers actually have a life outside of videogames and only care about if a game is fun? Ever though of that? Only super dorks get their panties in a bunch about something like the Saturn have a little more 2d power than the Playstation... You guys would leave people to believe the SNES was better at 2d than the Playstation...lol All you Sega fanboys are the same, you are bitter because there is no more Sega console and the games they make now are really shitty, that's it. I love Sega too, but I'm not a fanboy of any company or system. I try to see things how they are...you know, a realist? My entire arguments is far from bases on screenshots. I own a Saturn and Playstation you idiot, and there's hardly a difference between the two in power in 2d and 3d. Everyone knows the PS has the edge in 3d and the Saturn the edge in 2d but it just pisses me off when idiots like you run around claiming the Saturn blows away the PS in 2d when that's just straight out not true and it just makes you look like a fanboy. And I don't particularly like fanboys because I'm 25 years old and that fanboy shit belongs in middle school and highschool playgrounds... Grow up already who cares if a coupld fighting games are better on the Saturn than the PS WHOOPTIE DOO here's a friggen cookie. You're precious Saturn got slaughtered in every other way except for a handfull of games...lol And the proof is in Sega ain't making consoles anymore! They pissed off the gaming public by trying to push too many consoles on us. They rushed out the Saturn stupidly at a high price etc. So stop being a bitter Sega/2d fighter fanboy ok Grow up will ya! There are only videogames anyway!

 

You want facts, here's the facts AGAIN (SEE, I've already stated the facts but anyway) Facts:

 

PS sold a lot better than the Saturn (gee, what does that mean?) PS does better 3d than saturn FOR THE MOST PART and the SAturn does better 2d than the PS FOR THE MOST PART, but here's the biggest fact for you that a fanboy liek yourself just can't get through his head (BOTH SYSTEMS ARE VERY SIMILAR IN POWER REGARDLESS OF THE TYPE OF GAME!!!) Which makes sense since both were developed and released in the same tmie period duh...so this whole argument about which is best is stupid in my mind because I've played both systems extensively and neither is significantly better than the other except for the fact that the PS has a lot more games thus is has more good games than the Saturn..........................................................................

.............................

Edited August 5, 2007 by kevincal

[kevincal]

Who started all these stupid VS threads anyway? The answers are already obvious, why start a thread about them... To create flamewars obviously I guess... I swear that is the Jag forums in a nutshell though... Most of the time they are like a freaking desolate moon without a peep cus there is next to nothing new happening with Jag except for some small minigames that come out like once every few years.... But then everyon once in awhile some troll/uninformed/fanboy newbies come in the Jag forums and stir up crap with things like "VS" thread... Ugh...

[Gorf]

The problem is when ACE's come in and dispute you when you lay shit down as clear as possible

with facts, links and figures, they still dont believe it and go right back to the fanboy shit.

 

We know gazillion times already that you like other systems game better than the Jaguar

Most people do. It has nothing to do with the technical TRUTH behind them. That is what

we are SUPPOSED to be discussing..not your Opinion.. Facts.

 

Start a topic of which systems games are better.....another stupid argument.

Edited August 5, 2007 by Gorf

[spiffyone]

MY GOD, do you have a problem reading what I type!??!!?!?!? I HAVE ADMITTED OVER AND OVER THE SATURN VERSIONS ARE BETTER!!!! BUT SLIGHTLY GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD... YA MOST OF THE SAME 2D GAMES WERE RATED HIGHER ON THE SATURN BUT NOT BY A LOT!!!!!!! THAT'S THE POINT i'VE BEEN TRYING TO MAKE THIS WHOLE TIME...MY GODDD...

 

And yet you have shown no proof.

 

Indeed, you have only argued that animation frames, missing features, etc. only matters to "hardcore 2D fighting games freaks".

 

You have not shown that PSone 2D fighters were as close to their Saturn counterparts as you claim.

 

Show it. Go on. Try.

 

Ya the SAturn is a 2d powerhouse, but the PS ain't exactly no slouch compared to the Saturn thus the Saturn IS NOT a powerhouse compared to the PS!!!! You could say it was a 2D powerhouse compared to the N64 or 3DO or something... You're just a freaking Saturn fanboy, they are the most annoying kind...Like short mans syndrome for gaming consoles you lot are... The people spoke long ago and the Playstation clearly kicked the Saturn's ass so don't try to tell me it's better cus it's far from that...

 

Again, what do sales have to do with comparing power here?

 

And again with the Saturn fanboy comment.

 

Guess what? I didn't actually own a Saturn until very recently. I owned a 3DO, PSone and N64 before then, for years (and still do own those consoles).

 

It is clear as day that Saturn had it over PSone in terms of 2D fighters. Animation, sprite size, features, load times, etc.

 

and lol @ "DID YOU KNOW THERE'S NO TAG IN SFA3!?!??! " omfg!!! BIG DEAL!!! HAHA only some hardcore SFA3 dork who pumped $100's of dollars into the arcade version would really give a damn...

 

Um...I clearly stated that the tagging was removed from X-Men vs. Street Fighter. There is no tagging in SFA3 arcade version.

 

Now I have evidence to truly question your ability to read clearly those "reviews" you keep throwing about but have yet to show actual proof for.

 

Go on. Post some scans of said magazines.

 

You aren't thinking of the big picture buddy... Saturn doesn't "RAPE" the PS in 2d you are dreaming. It's better but it's far from raping, you freaking obvious fanboy!!! lol I have all my mags from the 90's and I remember reading through almost all of them and whenever the Saturn and PS had the exact same game reviewed most of the time the scored were pretty much exactly the same. Sometimes I even remember the PS version of a 2d games getting higher score and even though the Saturn probably had more 2d games rated high, it was only a very small amount like:

 

Street Fighter Alpha: PS = 95 Saturn = 96

 

Proof. Now.

 

Go on.

 

Oh, and yelling "fanboy" all the time isn't actually an argument. It doesn't help you in this discussion.

 

Not sure if you're trolling or not, and don't care. I type over 80 wpm and quite enjoy reading your nonsensical responses. I find them very humorous. You aren't good at proving things, but you sure are good at dishing out laughs.

 

Try to read my posts a little bit more carefully because you keep taking my words out of context or ignoring them altogether... Let me say it again...

I HAVE ALWAYS ADMITTED THE SATURN IS A BIT BETTER AT 2D THAN THE PLAYSTATION, BUT NOT AS MUCH AS MAJOR SEGA SATURN GEEKY FANBOY LIKE YOU WOULD LIKE TO DREAM UP!!!

 

You stated the difference is "negligable" in your past post.

 

The difference is "negligable" to YOU, as it seems is the ability to argue coherently. To the rest of us the differences are sizable.

 

What's funny is when sizable differences are shown (lack of tagging in the PSone games, lack of animation frames, less distinct character on screen at once, longer load times, etc.) you throw out "fanboy" with no proof or sales or say "no one noticed' or some such nonsense.

 

So go on and think you're having a laugh. Again, I type fast, so this isn't much of a time waster for me. More like something I'm doing for laughs. You're quite entertaining.

 

Now, go on. Let's see those scans from those mags.

 

Go on now. Post them.

[spiffyone]

I wouldn't go as far as to say the majority of gamers are clueless. Maybe it's more like the majority of gamers actually have a life outside of videogames and only care about if a game is fun? Ever though of that? Only super dorks get their panties in a bunch about something like the Saturn have a little more 2d power than the Playstation...

 

The discussion is on power comparitively. Not whether the games are fun or not.

 

Again, you have been shown facts. You choose to ignore those facts.

 

That's your problem, kiddo. Not mine.

 

You guys would leave people to believe the SNES was better at 2d than the Playstation...lol All you Sega fanboys are the same, you are bitter because there is no more Sega console and the games they make now are really shitty, that's it. I love Sega too, but I'm not a fanboy of any company or system. I try to see things how they are...you know, a realist?

 

Fanboy again?

 

Pick a factual argument.

 

Screaming fanboy isn't helping you at all.

 

My entire arguments is far from bases on screenshots. I own a Saturn and Playstation you idiot, and there's hardly a difference between the two in power in 2d and 3d.

 

*sighs

 

And again with the namecalling.

 

Must make you feel good to be an internet "tough guy", huh?

 

Everyone knows the PS has the edge in 3d and the Saturn the edge in 2d but it just pisses me off when idiots like you run around claiming the Saturn blows away the PS in 2d when that's just straight out not true and it just makes you look like a fanboy. And I don't particularly like fanboys because I'm 25 years old and that fanboy shit belongs in middle school and highschool playgrounds... Grow up already who cares if a coupld fighting games are better on the Saturn than the PS WHOOPTIE DOO here's a friggen cookie.

 

Here's the gist of that quote:

 

Fanboy accusations. Tasteless insults. Age. Internet "tough guy" routine.

 

What's funny is that you're the one acting like a kid on the school playground.

 

You're precious Saturn got slaughtered in every other way except for a handfull of games...lol And the proof is in Sega ain't making consoles anymore! They pissed off the gaming public by trying to push too many consoles on us. They rushed out the Saturn stupidly at a high price etc. So stop being a bitter Sega/2d fighter fanboy ok Grow up will ya! There are only videogames anyway!

 

The gist:

 

Fanboy accusations. Tasteless insults. Allusions to age. Internet "tough guy" routine.

 

Oh, and once again ironically stating "grow up" when you're the one acting childish and the one taking this seriously.

 

You want facts, here's the facts AGAIN (SEE, I've already stated the facts but anyway) Facts:

 

PS sold a lot better than the Saturn (gee, what does that mean?)

 

Again, what does that have to do with comparitive power?

 

PS does better 3d than saturn FOR THE MOST PART and the SAturn does better 2d than the PS FOR THE MOST PART, but here's the biggest fact for you that a fanboy liek yourself just can't get through his head (BOTH SYSTEMS ARE VERY SIMILAR IN POWER REGARDLESS OF THE TYPE OF GAME!!!)

 

Now prove it.

 

Go on.

 

Show me where Playstation 2D games that also appeared on Saturn had the same sprite size, animation, number of distinct characters/objects on screen, etc.

 

Go on.

 

Which makes sense since both were developed and released in the same tmie period duh...so this whole argument about which is best is stupid in my mind because I've played both systems extensively and neither is significantly better than the other except for the fact that the PS has a lot more games thus is has more good games than the Saturn..........................................................................

 

Gist of all your posts so far:

 

Opinions that are countered with facts which are subsequently ignored for more of your opinions.

 

Fanboy accusations.

 

Bringing up things that aren't part of the debate on power comparisons.

 

Tasteless insults.

 

Ironic questioning of maturity (ironic because you're the one acting immature and taking this way too seriously).

 

Internet "tough guy" routine.

 

Backtracking when backed to a corner.

 

Rinse. Lather. Repeat.

 

Oh, and add evidence of poor reading ability and various misspellings showing a lack of writing skills and/or taking this all way too seriously.

 

BTW, if this was a trolling attempt, you've been schooled on proper skills associated with that routine.

[Punisher5.0]

Come on guys we are talking about videogames here.

[kevincal]

The problem is when ACE's come in and dispute you when you lay shit down as clear as possible

with facts, links and figures, they still dont believe it and go right back to the fanboy shit.

 

We know gazillion times already that you like other systems game better than the Jaguar

Most people do. It has nothing to do with the technical TRUTH behind them. That is what

we are SUPPOSED to be discussing..not your Opinion.. Facts.

 

Start a topic of which systems games are better.....another stupid argument.

 

Last time I checked the Topic title is........:

 

ATARI JAGUAR VS SEGA SATURN

 

Does it anywhere say TECHNICAL anything, ANYWHERE in the topic title!?!?! NO!!! There's more to an argument about what system is better than the technical side of things...sorry. The problem is you are obviously a technical minded person and I'm more of a....DIFFERENT kind of person. Ok what I'm getting at is, and what I've gotten to before...Is that I firmly believe that most people aren't near as technical minded as you are and thus, we mainly care about if the games graphics look good to us and if the game is fun... We don't go berzerk because another systems version of a game is only slightly better than the other... It's just ridiculous. And as far as the Jag competiting with the Saturn and PS...of course it's TECHNICALLY POSSIBLE, but POSSIBLE doesn't always mean LIKELY. I think it's pretty obvious that although TECHNICALLY it's POSSIBLE to make PS and Saturn quality 3D games on the Jag, it's really not LIKELY it's ever gonna happen for reasons I have stated before... You may be a great, even godly programmer Gorf, but c'mon, you need more than just yourself to make such a 3D game on the Jag and even then it would take way too long ala Battlesphere. You'd need a large, well paid, highly skilled team to even MAYBE match one of the PS' or Saturn's better 3D games. Isn't that the truth!?!?!?!?

[kevincal]

SPIFFYONE (what a retarded name...) No need for me to waste my time to prove to you anything. Everyone read the same mags as me in the 90's and knows that the same 2d games on the Saturn on PS were rated very similarly. Whereas the same 3d game on the both systems was usually rated significantly high on the PS...That's fact. This isn't my damned opinion like you keep stating. I'm not talking out of my ass. Go away...

[Gorf]

 

 

The playstation sprites are 8x8 pixel! Talk about a limit!

Sprites bigger than that require puting a shitload of these 8x8's together

which is a coding nightmare or use square textured polygons.

That means it need to draw two right triangles for every poly based sprite.

 

The Saturn dusts the PS1 in 2D. It's a quad based drawing system.

It does one sprite in one command. It will puff the PS1 handily.

So will the Jaguar. The Blitter and the OPL will beat the PS1's ass

in for it in 2D. If you cheat and use the ps1 3D for 2D you steal

from the polycounts doing so. It's strong point is not at all 2D.

Edited August 5, 2007 by Gorf

[kevincal]

lol @ spiffy...right, MISSPELLINGS WOW who really gives a shit. This is a Jaguar forum, you can read what I writing just fine. And I happen to be a great speller when I give a damn, but talking to people like you, I really could give a shit about impressing you with my spelling abilities...

[Gorf]

Come on guys we are talking about videogames here.

 

The actual thread is about Sega VS Jag ease of coding....if I am not mistaken.

 

...which btw DOES go to a systems power.

[Gorf]

Does it anywhere say TECHNICAL anything, ANYWHERE in the topic title!?!?! NO!!! There's more to an argument about what

 

 

See the title post. This has nothing to do with your taste in games whatsover.

 

Talking about t which is harder to code for is the topic and the system's power

goes along with that discussion.

[kevincal]

Gorf I think you are forgetting the Saturn is in the same boat as the Jag....It's a bitch to program for..so on paper maybe the Saturn will look like it would slaughter the PS, but THE ACTUAL GAMES tell a different picture. The resident Saturn fanboy has pointed out a couple examples of a Saturn 2d game being better than the PS, but he fails to remember the HUNDREDS OF OTHER GAMES where the PS version looks EXACTLY THE SAME... DURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRr..... And as far as the Jag handing the PS1 its ass handily in 2d...again, the proof is in the games. A perfect comparison would have to be Rayman, which looks damn near exactly the same on both systems...there is no difference really and you can't tell me UBI soft aren't hella skilled programmers.........hmm?

[Gorf]

Gorf I think you are forgetting the Saturn is in the same boat as the Jag....It's a bitch to program for..so on paper maybe the Saturn will look like it would slaughter the PS, but THE ACTUAL GAMES tell a different picture. The resident Saturn fanboy has pointed out a couple examples of a Saturn 2d game being better than the PS, but he fails to remember the HUNDREDS OF OTHER GAMES where the PS version looks EXACTLY THE SAME... DURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRr..... And as far as the Jag handing the PS1 its ass handily in 2d...again, the proof is in the games. A perfect comparison would have to be Rayman, which looks damn near exactly the same on both systems...there is no difference really and you can't tell me UBI soft aren't hella skilled programmers.........hmm?

 

 

Of course they are but they did rayman on Jag with shit tools and rayman on PSX with killer tools.

 

I can tell you the Jag game was VERY 68k intensive....I'd be blown away otherwise. The PSX was

working hard. The Jaguar was idling most of the time. Trust me on this. I know what the Jaguar

can do in 2D. Trevor sux as a game but you will never see it on the Playstation without a frame

drop....never....maybe if you use the 3D hardware to do it....but that's cheating...and a real pain

to code....Im sure not many used that cheat for PSX. Sony did not allow anyone make 2D games

for a while at first anyway. The Sony is not able to dedicate it entire bus to 2D....The Jaguar can

utulize every last one of its 106 MB a second for 2D. The Saturn cant even do that. But the Saturn

is a quad based drawing system and the Playstation is a triangle based drawing system. The 3D on

Saturn suffers because making shapes that need triagles for sides are a night mare. It is perfect

for 2D however.

 

I still find the Saturn to be less grainy, crisper and by far more colorfull in 2D...At least the games

I've seen. The Saturn will compete with the Jaguar before the Sony does.

[sd32]

Well, i made this thread to learn a little about these 2 consoles hardware, so yeah Gorf is right in that regard, i just didnt make it clear in my first post.

I have to agree with Gorf way of seeing things, Kevincal looks at the games released to judge what system is better when it comes their capabilities, but thats not fair for a system like the Jaguar, and even the Saturn, that where dificult to code for (but not imposible) and didnt even last long enough to be pushed to their limits. Maybe if Squaresoft had suported the Saturn instead of the PSX (they were neck and neck in Japan until FF7 came out), more of the big companies would have jumped on board, and we would have seen more amazing things, like Saturn Shenmue, instead of lazy ports of PSX games that were developed to use that systems strengths.

Same thing with the Jag, Gorf is telling us that the Jag can do more than we saw, but some guys here just dont want to belive him, while coders like Thunderbird, seem to agree with him. Who should i believe, a coder who claims to have discovered ways to push the Jag even harder and who has shown fellow Jag coders his methods, or just some game players who only base their opinions on what they have seen.

By the way some PSX 2d fighting game ports were indeed crap, i had it back in the day, and it was embarassing. COTA, King of Fighters 99, ughh! I too used tor ead all the time about the PSX wweak sprite engine (compared to Saturn).

Again, i just wanted to learn a little bit about these 2 systems hardware, not to start a flame war.