JagCF last news before the before the launch of final proto.

[Gorf]

The state of the Jaguar community would be less developers with the Tototek

so why are there more developers (than on the jaguar) in the others homebrew communities that have flash card device for their system ?

simply because most of you developers here don't have the homebrew spirit and want money like if you were working for a game company

 

 

What a nonsensical statement ....as if no one in those other communities sell their products. That is just

plain desperate. not to mention the fact that just about any of those other consoles have a MUCH larger

following and fan base than the Jaguar by wide margins. 'Try again space cadet'.

 

 

As far as us charging money , I guess we value our work more than you do. What can I say?

Edited October 4, 2007 by Gorf

[Pocket]

Why oh why couldn't Tototek have released a flash card for the Jag a long time ago. Then we wouldn't be having this stupid 'discussion'.

 

Oh wait, given the state of the Jag 'community' we probably would be anyway.

 

Sadly.

[Gorf]

Oops, did I forget to post something?

 

let me guess ... a constructive remark perhaps ?

 

 

Like this post of your? Well I guess if anyone would know.....

Edited October 4, 2007 by Gorf

[GT Turbo]

I dont know of many programmers that have a LA next to them. Only those that are usually trying to crack some one elses

IP's. Oops!

Or people who want to give real proofs and real informations, not only some words....

 

Where i have wrote that ? I'm curious !

 

You imply it well enough without saying it.

As usual you talk instead of their autors !! Great, i have never written that, you talk without any proofs that's all, you try to give bad informations, talk about things we have never said and after that you think people will follow you, open your eyes, a lot of people have seen the only REAL thing you do very well is flooding, it's all !!

 

i have even received a mail : 'hope gorf wil leave the Jaguar world' was written in it.....

 

I have waste enough time trying to answer you, i will stop here this 'neverending posting' better spending time to code.

 

GT Turbo

[Gorf]

Or people who want to give real proofs and real informations, not only some words....

 

Please tell me what that reading proved because Im still trying to figure it out and why wont you

run the optimized GPU version runnuing out of main I GAVE you? Im still waiting for that. Again

I really don't care if you beleive it or not. It's no skin off my shoes.

 

You imply it well enough without saying it.

 

As usual you talk instead of their autors !! Great, i have never written that, you talk without any proofs

that's all, you try to give bad informations, talk about things we have never said and after that you

think people will follow you, open your eyes, a lot of people have seen the only REAL thing you do

very well is flooding, it's all !!

 

You have a right to your opinion even if you are wrong.

 

i have even received a mail : 'hope gorf wil leave the Jaguar world' was written in it.....

 

Ok so you and deranged desperado, who is no doubt for illegal DL's corespond, like that means

something? If I showed you the PM's I get about you guys you'd be embarrased....well that

is if you had a consience in the first place.

 

I have waste enough time trying to answer you, i will stop here this 'neverending posting' better spending time to code.

GT Turbo

 

 

Oh you start it all and now you want to stop it all? sheesh.....if you cant take it dont dish it out.

[Fadest]

As far as us charging money , I guess we value our work more than you do. What can I say?

Coming for a guy who selled Gorf at a very fair price, this seems really strange to me

But I really find this condescending (correct me if I'm wrong), this is why I will try to explain my position.

 

Remember me, the price of Gorf was something like 30$, right ? You could have sell them at 50 or 60$, people would have buy too.

So, did the Gorf price was really only related to how you valued your work ?

 

I already said than homebrew (or small company like 3DStooges if you prefer, but small incorporated is not a kind of model we have here, so there is a cultural difference, that's why we englobe all post-manufacturers development into homebrewing) development is unvaluable. And your action just make me feel you think like me. You didn't want to take all the money you could from Gorf or to be pay for all the work you did (in my opinion, this is plainly impossible with homebrew developement). No, you made a release at a fair price, covering packaging, production, and a small fee for all of you maybe...

 

But you know, every one just think like you, but there are many ways, but not one.

 

Let's have a look, who is making money on new Jag release ? The developpers, the publishers, the manufacturers (sometimes, these are only one person) ? No, new jags games are sell at a fair price. Was Battlesphere normal or Gold version too pricey (even without considering that funds were for charity) ? Are Songbird release too pricey ? Gorf ? Frog Feast ? Extremist packs ? and so on...

No, the one who are sometimes making money is those who speculates on Ebay. How do you feel when someone sell Gorf at 100$, 150$ ? When someone sell his Battlesphere at 500$ ? Is this money going back to you or Scatologic ? Do you think the seller really value your work by doing this ?

Of course, you can consider that if price are going up, this is beacause BUYER valuates your work (or maybe, valuate the collecting aspect of thing). This is probably the best way to react, in order to not deseperate.

 

I said that I gave my Lynx games for free, every one can manufacture it and sell. The medium selling price I saw was around 30$ for a cartridge boxed with notice. Of course, they made some money, maybe they can get at best 4 or 5 hundreds dollars. But they did their work (soldering, manufacting...) some were kind enough to send me a cartridge I can give to my friends. But, what is 500$, a kind of 1 week of real work, one speculation on a BattleSphere cartridge.

But choosing this solution, I know that my game will never be out of supply, and that people will never be able to make big moeny with it on Ebay.

I already said my main reward (besides my son appreciation) is the fact that people enjoy and play my games.

 

And I'm pretty sure, that even if we choosed different way, we have the same feeling.

[Fadest]

I dont know of many programmers that have a LA next to them. Only those that are usually trying to crack some one elses

IP's. Oops!

Or people who want to give real proofs and real informations, not only some words....

I think that for people who are on hardware side of things, this is a useful tool, like a debugger for a developper...

Then, when you have a tool at home (SCPCD indeed it on the hardware side), why not using it when you can (checking some concepts or performance).

[Gorf]

Remember me, the price of Gorf was something like 30$, right ? You could have sell them at 50 or 60$, people would have buy too. So, did the Gorf price was really only related to how you valued your work ?

 

Gorf was sold at that price to set an example of how NOT to rip off jag fans.

I think it would have sold for that too but that was my gift.

 

And your action just make me feel you think like me.

You didn't want to take all the money you could from

Gorf or to be pay for all the work you did

 

I still value my work enough to cover the moeny I put out for materials. I know you value your work

but you make it sound sometimes that we who do charge to cover our output and a little trouble

are not good for the homebrew community. Funny thing is we ARE a professional company. We do this

kind of some where in between homebrew and professinalism. How many companies still write for dead

systems, or better yet even give that dead sysetm time and consideration?

 

 

But you know, every one just think like you, but there are many ways, but not one.

 

Let's have a look, who is making money on new Jag release ? The developpers, the publishers, the manufacturers (sometimes, these are only one person) ?

 

I never made any money from selling Gorf...I told you we covered the cost and a few beers to celebrate.

 

Was Battlesphere normal or Gold version too pricey

 

every dime was for charity. I planned to do similar things with Gorf if I decided to go ahaead with it.

Scott L., doug or Steph, never saw a dime from that game outside of cost. Eery penny went to fight

diabetes. This game 's revenue generating abilities is helping people live, not profit.

 

Songbird is ridiculous in his prices and I've been saying that for a long time. If I wanted to profit

i'd be following Carl's lead. Oh , this is not something I have not said to Carl directly. He has a right

to charge what he likes. I dont have a right to DL...hmmm...ok...Skyhammer...a gain I was looking

forward to getting but wont pay the price so I never play it. I cant live without it. In fact I think some

one posted a preversion of the one Carl released. I wont paly that either..Carl is they guy who has

the rights(from what I've been told anyway) to Skyhammer and I have to respect that.

 

I already said my main reward (besides my son appreciation) is the fact that people enjoy and play my games.

 

I've said the same thing but I cant put out many hundreds of dollars and not get at least that back. I also cant

expect two other guys on my crew to do this for nothing, even if they want to.

 

I m not rich or even well off by any means. I have to scratch and survive and if I sit here making games I want to

make sure it is not a loosing proposistion. I'll still code my jag releases or not, but I wont lose money doing it.

I also do not like releasing DL'able versions of my games because im a big fan of packaged games. It's more

complete in my opinion and is OUR choice at 3DSSS. That costs us so it has to cost you.

 

We never did and never do expect to make a profit from Jaguar games. I have professional work to make a

living from. That is'nt happening here, even if I sell a shit load of copies. The trouble and effort of putting all

this stuff together could never be covered by the abysmal return on Jaguar games.

 

Now if I were trying to really make money, you woul dbet Gorf would have been double but I in could not do that

and feel good about myself. I dont want you to think that I personally think your work is worthless. I dont. But

there is no reason to feel guilty for charging for it...let he who works hard be rewarded. The point is my charging

to get back a little of the time and effort and covering costs should never be an issue. You folks haev made it such,

not I. Again, I do give things aways to this community, just not things I have to shell out for.

[Gorf]

I dont know of many programmers that have a LA next to them. Only those that are usually trying to crack some one elses

IP's. Oops!

Or people who want to give real proofs and real informations, not only some words....

I think that for people who are on hardware side of things, this is a useful tool, like a debugger for a developper...

Then, when you have a tool at home (SCPCD indeed it on the hardware side), why not using it when you can (checking some concepts or performance).

 

La's are wonderful tools and very useful but I would neer use them to measure performance. At least not without a

proper set of test suites. The oen done by SCPCD does not eevn scratch the surface and it certainly does not show

the Jagur running 6 times slower in main as a rule.

[Starcat]

Hey folks!

 

Isn't there a way for us all to calm down and find a way to stop this and other flame wars?

Of course there are different opinions involved, but isn't there a way to respect opinions of others and live with them?

 

About this pro and con JagCF topic: I don't think it makes sense to say JagCF is against the interest of developers or that it is in the interest of them, as both opinions are there. Some developers love the idea, other don't.

 

If it really matters how many people are pro or con, only a poll where each developer states his opinion on JagCF will help I think.

But even then, it wouldn't change anything, or would it?

 

Does it make sense to discuss or even let a discussion turn into a flame war with personal attacks if it will not change anything and just end up with bad feelings?

 

The way I see it, all this doesn't make much sense. JagWare will do what they consider best and there are developers who support their idea while there are also developers who don't like the idea. Wouldn't it be better to finally sit down and discuss a solution both can live with?

 

Regards, Lars.

[Atari060]

Lars is completely right. I don´t like to see atarians fighting against each other... well, you could play some rounds of Kasumi Ninja of course

 

Sure everyone has his own opinion, but we can all coexist in peace. If we don´r respect each other, the whole scene will break apart and go to hell. I wouldn´t like that!

[Fadest]

@Gorf, about the value of work...

Awesome !!!

We are saying exactly the same thing, but the way you quoted me just give the impression I disagree with you

Did you read carefully my post ?

Did you really notice that we have the same conclusions (you did not make money for Gorf, like Scat did not for BS, ...) ?

 

Just to post one of your conclusion

Again, I do give things aways to this community, just not things I have to shell out for.

Hey, that's exactly what we did with yastuna : by giving them, we have no fees, so we do not ask for money : we cover our shelling expenses

If we decided to sell them, we would have set a price that would have covered the manufacting, the packaging... Nothing more, like you did for Gorf.

 

 

Off topic :One point about homebrew, and company. Here, in France, creating a company just for publishing software for Jag or Lynx, or other old system is just plainly impossible. There is no light structure like incorporated (I guess this is the term in Us). Only the registration, or the fiscal declaration would be so high, than selling a game every year would not cover these amount. There is in my opinion few solutions : selling as an indivudual (with fiscal declaration of profit), creating an association (non-lucrative, it can sell but not making profit), or maybe give rights to a US company like OlderGames or Songbird or 3DStooges

This is why I englobe you into the term homebrew, even if you feel you are more professional, with 3D Stooges company. This is a reflex.

And this is why many americans speaks about Jagware as a company, but this is not as far as I know. I don't know the situation in Germany, but I'm pretty sure that Duranik for example is not a company, just a name for a telented developper group.

[Atari_Owl]

Lars is completely right. I don´t like to see atarians fighting against each other... well, you could play some rounds of Kasumi Ninja of course

 

Sure everyone has his own opinion, but we can all coexist in peace. If we don´r respect each other, the whole scene will break apart and go to hell. I wouldn´t like that!

 

Its been crappy like this as long as i can remember... though it took me a while to notice at first since i was kind of naive. Its not going to change now... too many factions and too many people who want to cause trouble for whatever reason.

 

It is certainly hard under such circumstances to remain motivated.

Edited October 5, 2007 by Atari_Owl

[Gorf]

@Gorf, about the value of work...

Awesome !!!

We are saying exactly the same thing, but the way you quoted me just give the impression I disagree with you

Did you read carefully my post ?

Did you really notice that we have the same conclusions (you did not make money for Gorf, like Scat did not for BS, ...) ?

 

Just to post one of your conclusion

Again, I do give things aways to this community, just not things I have to shell out for.

Hey, that's exactly what we did with yastuna : by giving them, we have no fees, so we do not ask for money : we cover our shelling expenses

If we decided to sell them, we would have set a price that would have covered the manufacting, the packaging... Nothing more, like you did for Gorf.

 

 

Off topic :One point about homebrew, and company. Here, in France, creating a company just for publishing software for Jag or Lynx, or other old system is just plainly impossible. There is no light structure like incorporated (I guess this is the term in Us). Only the registration, or the fiscal declaration would be so high, than selling a game every year would not cover these amount. There is in my opinion few solutions : selling as an indivudual (with fiscal declaration of profit), creating an association (non-lucrative, it can sell but not making profit), or maybe give rights to a US company like OlderGames or Songbird or 3DStooges

This is why I englobe you into the term homebrew, even if you feel you are more professional, with 3D Stooges company. This is a reflex.

And this is why many americans speaks about Jagware as a company, but this is not as far as I know. I don't know the situation in Germany, but I'm pretty sure that Duranik for example is not a company, just a name for a telented developper group.

 

 

I think I have aggreed to professional hombrew. I think that is fair.

[Albert]

Please keep this discussion CIVIL and without INSULTS and NAME CALLING or I *WILL* lock it. If you cannot do that, do not participate in the thread. Thank you.

 

..Al

[Fadest]

La's are wonderful tools and very useful but I would neer use them to measure performance. At least not without a

proper set of test suites. The oen done by SCPCD does not eevn scratch the surface and it certainly does not show

the Jagur running 6 times slower in main as a rule.

I have a problem of understanding. Did you want to say "need use" or "never use" ?

 

Btw, this is just a measure on 1 or many specifics tests, you are right.

We all know that we should not be confident when a game company speaks about performance (remember number of polygons, mhz, ...) to promote their hardware .

So we can assume that you think this particular test is the worst case...

6 times slower in main than in local at the worst case, this is not so bad. This is better than plainly impossible like we thought before you and AtariOwn made your tests.

This is even compatible with AtariOwl's statement, when he said that sometimes he noticed 5 times slower, but usually better performances.

 

 

So what can we expect about this ?

If a code is small enough to run in local, there is no extra-performance to expect.

If it isn't, in the worst case, it will slow down by a factor of 6... But, this is allways better than paging, or even worse, not use the GPU.

And with experience, a good coder will arrange his code, letting in local important things, and putting in main the less significant, so that performance will be better (this is your and AtariOwl feeling, based on your experiment)

[Gorf]

I have a problem of understanding. Did you want to say "need use" or "never use" ?

 

Never as in soley based on the reading of an LA. They might be useful to some

extent but the best measurement of code performance is to run it and see it

with your own eyes. Now even if 6 times slower was a fact all the time it is still

a lot faster than using the slow and out of place 68k.Tthe whole point of using

the GPU in main is to save you from wasting cycles pumping data into the local

when a lot of the time its no big difference running it out in main. Yeah, he local

will always be faster because the local is seperate bus and never has to wait for

another processor(unless you use other processors to write directly to the local

which I would imagine casue some sort of wait state under the proper conditions.)

 

The other save in cycles is the GPU can continue to run in local and not have to

wait while local is being loaded. We have the entire renderer in in local and all

else out in main and it runs many times faster than using the 68k and even faster

than flipping code in the local. You dont waste any more cycles moving data and

waiting for the data to be moved.. Mix that will a well written renderer where the

GPU never waits on the blitt but instead waits for the blitter to interrupt it for the

next command and you will greatly increase the speed of wahtever you were doing

the former way.

 

So we can assume that you think this particular test is the worst case...

6 times slower in main than in local at the worst case, this is not so bad.

 

Depending on what you are doing you might even go slower but at the same time

you can go faster. In fact in the docs is says when the exteranl ram block is idle

the GPU can run at full speed in external ram. Then a few chapters later they say

do not use external ram becasue the jumps are unerliable (and they were wrong),

not because it isn't fast enough. You will take hits when page boundaries are crossed

or another master is accessing the bus which is a lot of the time so you may only

see full speed when that activity is idle and the GPU can have full control of the bus.

 

 

This is better than plainly impossible like we thought before you and AtariOwn made your tests.

 

It is not only possible but it is also significantly faster.

 

This is even compatible with AtariOwl's statement, when he said that sometimes he noticed 5 times slower, but usually better performances.

 

Yes it can drop down even slower than 6 times but that is when the bus is being heavily

utilized, which is the case a good deal of the time with the OPL, blitter and DSP all hitting

the bus as one would expect in any useful application.

 

If a code is small enough to run in local, there is no extra-performance to expect.

 

Exactly so you dont need main ram but we are talking 2600 sized games.

A larger app will require one of the other methods such as flipping or main

code execution or kill the frame rate 68k.

 

 

If it isn't, in the worst case, it will slow down by a factor of 6... But, this is allways better than paging, or even worse, not use the GPU.

 

 

Right...the GPU was put there for a reason and the 68k should never have been put there at all.

 

And with experience, a good coder will arrange his code, letting in local important things, and putting in main the less significant, so that performance will be better (this is your and AtariOwl feeling, based on your experiment)

 

 

It's more than feeling. It's seeing our old 68k and page flipped code running significantly

and very noticibly faster.

Edited October 5, 2007 by Gorf

[phuzaxeman]

gorf says, "...Songbird is ridiculous in his prices and I've been saying that for a long time. If I wanted to profit

i'd be following Carl's lead. Oh , this is not something I have not said to Carl directly..."

 

you know, at least songbird produces games that people want. unlike some other talk company, i was able to get a hold of alpine games and sky hammer. it was kinda high but hey, i like em and feel it's worth the price. it's nice to know there's some legit atari supporting software store.

[+LS650]

I recently purchased Alpine Games for my Lynx...

 

The Lynx is a great example to look at. The emulation for Lynx is almost 100%, the ROMs are easily downloadable, you can play ROMs run on Handy on pretty much any laptop anywhere --- and yet people are still homebrewing and buying hobbyist-built carts.

[Atariboy]

I agree about Songbird.

 

Not only that, he provides great customer service. I bought a sealed Tempest 2000 cart that turned out dead and he replaced it with no questions asked for example. For all he knew, I was someone trying to rip him off to replace a dead Tempest cartridge.

 

This community could use a few more people like him, instead of criticizing him.

[+remowilliams]

I recently purchased Alpine Games for my Lynx...

 

The Lynx is a great example to look at. The emulation for Lynx is almost 100%, the ROMs are easily downloadable, you can play ROMs run on Handy on pretty much any laptop anywhere --- and yet people are still homebrewing and buying hobbyist-built carts.

No it's dead - it has to be, everybody is a pirate! Games can't be sold when digital media storage devices, emulators or computers exist! Authors will never receive compensation!

 

Or maybe not, because the Lynx community isn't diseased at its core.

[phuzaxeman]

I agree about Songbird.

 

Not only that, he provides great customer service. I bought a sealed Tempest 2000 cart that turned out dead and he replaced it with no questions asked for example. For all he knew, I was someone trying to rip him off to replace a dead Tempest cartridge.

 

This community could use a few more people like him, instead of criticizing him.

 

he does have great customer service. we need his services and not take it for granted.

[Gorf]

gorf says, "...Songbird is ridiculous in his prices and I've been saying that for a long time. If I wanted to profit

i'd be following Carl's lead. Oh , this is not something I have not said to Carl directly..."

 

you know, at least songbird produces games that people want. unlike some other talk company, i was able to get a hold of alpine games and sky hammer. it was kinda high but hey, i like em and feel it's worth the price. it's nice to know there's some legit atari supporting software store.

 

 

He also did not have to make those games and was in the right time at the right place.

I m suer a lot of us would have liked that same opportunity but not everyone gets lucky

like that. All I am saying it they were way too high priced. If you dont' mind paying that

price than that is your choice.

 

You can shoot your vailed insults at our coding team if you want but we have to actually write

the games from scratch. Think about that for a while.

[Gorf]

I agree about Songbird.

 

Not only that, he provides great customer service. I bought a sealed Tempest 2000 cart that turned out dead and he replaced it with no questions asked for example. For all he knew, I was someone trying to rip him off to replace a dead Tempest cartridge.

 

This community could use a few more people like him, instead of criticizing him.

 

 

I said his prices are too high. I think that is a fair assesment.

[Gorf]

I recently purchased Alpine Games for my Lynx...

 

The Lynx is a great example to look at. The emulation for Lynx is almost 100%, the ROMs are easily downloadable, you can play ROMs run on Handy on pretty much any laptop anywhere --- and yet people are still homebrewing and buying hobbyist-built carts.

No it's dead - it has to be, everybody is a pirate! Games can't be sold when digital media storage devices, emulators or computers exist! Authors will never receive compensation!

 

Or maybe not, because the Lynx community isn't diseased at its core.

 

 

And you say I over dramatize?