JagCF last news before the before the launch of final proto.

[Bill Loguidice]

In other words, if it works in every other community, why not in the Jag community?

 

Examples?

 

 

Examples of what?! Let's see, how about the AtariAge store? You see new games for the 2600, 5200, 7800, ColecoVision, etc., released here constantly, despite the proliferation of devices for "running ROMs", despite the fact that many of the games (on the 2600 in particular) have their BINs made readily available IN PROGRESS, despite the fact that emulation on those platforms is mature and simple, etc. Albert wouldn't be selling this stuff and going to all the trouble if people STILL didn't want the real thing. The Vectrex and Odyssey2 are more great examples of systems with either flash or multi-carts READILY available, the latter which contains homebrews, that still receive regular releases on cartridge. People don't do that out of the goodness of their hearts, they do it obviously for the love of the system, the experience and the knowledge that they'll at least break even materially. Frankly, for ANYTHING low sales volume - which anything vintage hardware/software based naturally is - one can 99% of the time never hope to make back what was put into it. From my own perspective, I've been writing a book now for over two years and could NEVER possibly hope to recoup what my time is worth from the advance or what sales will ultimately be. I'm still doing it though.

 

Again, the relative size of the Jag community is irrelevant. If you expect sales of 25 - 200 copies of a game max anyway, how can you realistically say that such a device would have an impact on those figures? Someone who is going to pirate anyway is not going to buy the game anyway. They'll just find a way to get free stuff. That's a sad fact of human nature. The point of a COMMUNITY is that you have a strong cadre of supporters - I count myself amongst that group - who support as much as possible in the community, including so-called "enabling" devices and new software. You grow that community by offering as much as possible to get the most out of the old hardware as possible. It's not up to the developers of the JagCF to account for every eventuality and every concern or need. It's up to them to make the best device possible that they so choose and hope that they can at least break even on from some standpoint. If you choose to support or not support that, it's your choice. Same thing with choosing to develop or not develop. If something changes in your environment to cause you to not produce new product, so be it. Why does someone have to kowtow or beg?

 

This debate is obviously pointless at this juncture, since everyone seems quite firm in their own particular beliefs and are looking out for their own particular desires/situations. Fair enough. The facts are that the JagCF is a device that may sell 25 - 200 units and may be used for piracy. The facts are also that realistically that will have little impact on new homebrew releases, which themselves will continue to sell in that same range. And finally, the facts are that just the mere presence of a piracy device (dual cassette deck, disk copier, CD-r, VCR, etc.) does not automatically destroy an entire purchasing infrastructure. It just doesn't. You take whatever reasonable safeguards you can - nice packaging, copy protection, whatever - and then hope for the best. Again, no matter what, SOME jackass will copy it anyway, regardless of how "easy" it is. Ultimately, one really has NOTHING to do with the other in our world, and it never has. Society moves on despite the jackasses.

[spiffyone]

Atari is no more.

 

I refuse to call Infogrames "Atari".

 

I also refuse to call that guy in the new Alone in the Dark games "Carnby" when he clearly isn't. And I also refuse to call the newer Alone in the Dark games "Alone in the Dark", and refuse to even recognize that that craptacular movie was made.

 

Y'know what I don't refuse?

 

Beer.

 

*chugs*

[Starcat]

Hi!

 

This discussion is giving me split feelings... Why all the talk about how hard it is to code the Jag and how piracy which is ruining it all? Not piracy is runing the scene! People who have no respect for developers, that is what ruins the scene. Those who contactly attack developers and sacre them away, that is what costs the scene games... Native, Age of Darkness, Assassin and many many more. Only god knows how many more in the future.

 

Personally I think repspect and support (not necessarily in a money way), is the least developers deserve and while many may be glad developers are around a few people ruin it. That should be stopped, as it's a much bigger problem than piracy can ever be on the Jag.

 

Think about it, those of you who said, people who want to pirate would do it anyway, they would find a way. Of course they find a way.

You can rip cartridges with any dev kit that lets you read data from cartridge and send it to a computer from the Jaguar. That has been done very very long ago already. Anybody who cares to invest $100-200 can play any cart game that has been ripped. Flash Carts and Alpines can be bought at that price.

There even are other devices built that allow this, even though they are not widely known in the Jag scene.

Fact is, anybody who wants to can play roms if they care to. The emulator is another option, it supports many games.

 

Regarding CD, it's even easier. Today it's not hard to find tools that read CDs without correcting the read data and thus creating working copys of Jaguar games. Anybody can do that. They can even download demo versions of such tools for free that make it possible. How could pirating games be easier for anybody who wants to do it. Even pirating games for current systems is way more difficult and as we all know many people do that all the time.

I don't support piracy, if it harms developers, but I don't see how it does on the Jag. Seriously, those who care about Jaguar games, are fans anyway and they will buy the games, if they are worth buying. Even if it was merely to have a box for their collection.

 

The fact is, even though piracy has been possible on the Jag since Alpines, Flash carts and other homemade devices were available, it never appeared widely and it never will. The Jaguar is a system for fans supported by fans in a way. Everybody who is really interested in Jaguar games will buy them when they are worth buying. I have yet to hear about homebrew games being pirated. And if they were, I think the most likely format for it would be CD.

 

In fact, when you look at other communities, people feel that "free" software is inferior, and thus they prefer to buy the games, even if they previously were released for free.

 

I am a Jag developer myself and still I can't imagine any better thing happen to the Jaguar than Jaguar CF. I can't wait. It's cheaper than cart games, offers more space, among other amazing features and offers security, that is better than cart and cd together. Piracy really is not a danger on the Jaguar in my opinion. It hasn't harmed the community of other abandoned systems either. Look at the VCS community, 8-bit community, even other newer systems such as Dreamcast. Another great example is the GP2X, it's whole idea is a system that is open for homebrew games, yet official games can be released that have to be purchased and the fans are craving for games even though they could get lots of homebrew games for free too.

 

Regards, Lars.

[Gorf]

Give me contact information for them, Atari condones it as this site is proof of.

 

 

You know how to use the net dont you? Do your own work.

 

Don't confuse an monetary inability of Atari to come after such sites

with indifference. I can bet you most judges in claims courts wont.

 

Atari Age is a bit of a different story too. This is a well know historical site.

aThis place does more for Atari than not by simply keeping a fantastic record

of everything Atari. Even I can give AA and Albert a slippy slide easily on this.

 

2600 games, even I dont have a probelm with so much as well as other

games long gone. My concern is with the new releases and ones that the

author still hoes to get what he can from it.

 

Again, I want nothing more than to release out games and we will, if we can

be sure we are safe.

[Gorf]

Examples of what?! Let's see, how about the AtariAge store? You see new games for the 2600, 5200, 7800, ColecoVision, etc., released here constantly, despite the proliferation of devices for "running ROMs", despite the fact that many of the

 

 

Those devices done take srams cards do they? You acn upload a few games at a time.

this CF is the entire jag lib and much more on one cheap 256meg sram card. If this we

a cart more like matthias device, I'd be jumping for joy. the CF is clearly design for the

unexpressed purpose of romz. The only thing these guys need to do to not only shut us

up but even possibly gain our support is may the ram where a cart cant run. Put two

friggin terra bytes n the thing if you want, just keep it out of the cart area.

[Atariboy]

There isn't any work to do. Atari condones the fact that their roms are here at AtariAge for download. The very fact that they're there, that AtariAge has been mentioned in the credits for such things as Atari Anthology, and that Atari employees have posted here is evidence of that fact.

 

I'm sure Atari hasn't been so crippled that they couldn't pursue private individuals and sites like AtariAge for copyright infringement over the past 5 years or whatever if they choose to do so. So that argument is meaningless since they haven't. Their only concern has been selling their ip or editing their classic games and selling them.

 

The Jaguar is more dead than the Atari 2600 at this point, so I'm confused why you'd let that slide and not the Jaguar. Your concern with new releases has been addressed, you'll be able to lock out future work so it can't be loaded on this device. For ones that the author still hopes to get what he can from them, I suspect they've already gotten most of what they'd be getting from it anyways. Someone that's going to go to Songbird's site and pay 80-90$ for that special post Atari release for the Jaguar don't seem like the type of individuals that would be swayed much by being able to download the game for nothing by stealing it anyways.

 

If you want to be safe, you shouldn't make your work public. If someone is low enough to pirate something, they're going to do it. I find it's odd that you're against the legitimate uses for the device, the honest users that want the device, and that you seem to ignore that protections are being put in place for developers to lock out their future work.

 

And those devices for other systems allow uploading the entire system library often (Such as the Cuttle Cart II), or at least 99% of it. And those that don't still allow signifant portions of the library to be uploaded at one time, with the only exceptions I can think of being the original Cuttle Cart for the 2600 and the Intellicart.

Edited September 29, 2007 by Atariboy

[Bill Loguidice]

Give me contact information for them, Atari condones it as this site is proof of.

 

 

You know how to use the net dont you? Do your own work.

 

Don't confuse an monetary inability of Atari to come after such sites

with indifference. I can bet you most judges in claims courts wont.

 

Atari Age is a bit of a different story too. This is a well know historical site.

aThis place does more for Atari than not by simply keeping a fantastic record

of everything Atari. Even I can give AA and Albert a slippy slide easily on this.

 

2600 games, even I dont have a probelm with so much as well as other

games long gone. My concern is with the new releases and ones that the

author still hoes to get what he can from it.

 

Again, I want nothing more than to release out games and we will, if we can

be sure we are safe.

 

Then I guess we'll never see another Jaguar game from you, Gorf, which is a pity, because you can NEVER have assurances, regardless of medium, but especially in one based on bits. Seriously, though, as I'm sure you can tell us, how many copies would you expect to sell of "New Game X" with no JagCF in the world versus one in? Is my estimate of ~25 - 200 copies that far off in a world with no JagCF? Now how many JagCF's will get sold? Maybe that same ~25 - 200 copy range (I bet due to the cost, it will easily be half that)? Now of those people who bought the JagCF, how many are "pirates"? Now how many of those pirates would refuse to buy a copy of "New Game X" because they can through some effort get it free? Do you see what I'm getting at here? Where is this sales loss coming from? We're talking a niche of a niche of a niche, of pirates who wouldn't have bought the game anyway, of pirates who probably (or maybe high percentage) ALREADY have a viable pirating solution in place.

[Fadest]

Well....go ahead..start coding...and after months of hand coding RISC code to run in main

because there are no tools that understand it can be done, after spending 12+ years to really

know a machine, to wring the very best performance you can for the sole purpose of offering

games worthy of a 64 bit machine.

This post seems strange for me, because I would say you are the one, amongst other active developper, that is abale, using your technological knowledges to protect your work (detect that program is run from something else than your PCB).

 

Concerning making hard work, putting his heart into our work, and making money, I choosed another option for the 3rd point, so I am not sure to be the best person to discuss about that.

 

 

At least you admit it.

Admit what ???

 

That you have very good technological knowledge of the Jaguar ? I never discussed about that, on the contrary (sorry, no time to make research, and no more access on JS2). And you proved it with Surrounded for example, or your technical explanations. For me, you are one of a few Jaguar developpers (I would say less than 5) that is able to create a protection for future release preventing them from being run on Jag CF (I know SCPCD has this competence, but I'm pretty sure you wouldn't trust him).

 

 

That I do not want to discuss about money, well, I spent 3 years to develop Lynx games that people seems to appreciate, but I choosed to put it in Public Domain, letting everyone build one or make money if they want. Our only reward (because my graphist man did a very hard job on it too) is that returns from people are positive, and some cartridges generously sent by a guy who were selling it on Ebay. My next relesae will be the same way. And so will be my unplanned next ones, on Lynx or Jaguar. So I can understand your legitimate point of view, but I choosed a different way.

[spiffyone]

Someone who is going to pirate anyway is not going to buy the game anyway.

 

Y'know...people sometimes trot out this old tired argument...and, it really doesn't pass the sniff test.

 

Album sales decrease, and "it's because the music sucks" when, quite frankly, it always did. And if the music sucks, why are so many stealing it?

 

And how do you know they wouldn't buy it if piracy weren't so easy?

 

The fact is that the motivation behind getting pirated products is to get the product that they desire for a lesser price. And there's no lesser price than "free".

 

Basic principle of economics:

 

If someone has a desire for a product, then they are all the more likely to buy if there are no "free" options or those "free" options are made difficult.

 

Why?

 

Because the very desire to have the product makes them a potential consumer of that product.

 

Wanna know why there's advertising?

 

To motivate you to buy. To accelerate the process of instilling desire for the products advertised.

 

Because if that desire is there, then you have become more likely to actually go out and buy the product.

 

Piracy circumvents the usual legal channels. Desire is instilled, but the purchase of the product, which, again, is more likely due to that instilled desire, does not come to fruition. Instead the desire is satisfied with no purchase being made.

 

Now, if someone is pirating a product then they have shown a desire to possess the product. Hence they are, in fact, more likely to have bought it if piracy was not an option. Because their desire for the product is there.

 

Piracy, of course, will always exist. But that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be made more difficult. Because the more difficult you make it, the less impact it makes.

[Bill Loguidice]

Examples of what?! Let's see, how about the AtariAge store? You see new games for the 2600, 5200, 7800, ColecoVision, etc., released here constantly, despite the proliferation of devices for "running ROMs", despite the fact that many of the

 

 

Those devices done take srams cards do they? You acn upload a few games at a time.

this CF is the entire jag lib and much more on one cheap 256meg sram card. If this we

a cart more like matthias device, I'd be jumping for joy. the CF is clearly design for the

unexpressed purpose of romz. The only thing these guys need to do to not only shut us

up but even possibly gain our support is may the ram where a cart cant run. Put two

friggin terra bytes n the thing if you want, just keep it out of the cart area.

 

Few games at a time? The ones I have can handle damned near the complete libraries. Hell, I just got one for the Intellivision that has every game and prototype and hack ever made for the machine for use in my Cuttle Cart 3. You should see my collection of "real stuff" though for that system, including homebrews. Again, I'm not a "real" pirate. A real pirate only takes and never rewards. A real pirate will always steal. For my convenience, I'll use these "enablers", but I'm not in the business of stealing others hard work and always make a point of supporting new product with my $$$. I suspect a big portion of the Jaguar community is the same way.

 

Anyway, as has been said, can't you simply put in a reasonable protection in your game using whatever bit is required and you're as safe as you ever were? I'm still missing where exactly these floodgates are, but then I suppose I haven't done a forensic investigation of the Jaguar's innards to know anything I'm talking about...

[spiffyone]

Your concern with new releases has been addressed, you'll be able to lock out future work so it can't be loaded on this device.

 

The assurance was kinda sorta made. Not absolute.

 

I think that's Gorf's beef. If it was more than just a "maybe" thing...I dunno, man.

 

Again, the taking of the older stuff is iffy, because even this site has older roms.

 

But the newer stuff has to be assured to be protected on some level other than "maybe...we don't know yet". Hell, people are going to pirate, sure, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be made as difficult as possible for newer works.

 

*sips beer*

 

*can is empty*

 

Damn.

[Gorf]

But why'd you release Gorf for? Such a release would be incredabley easy to pirate and sell, and to distrubute online to virtually every Jaguar fan who owns the Jaguar CD since most would have the capability to burn it right on their PC. Has your work been infringed upon you feel by more than a handful of individuals?

 

We all make mistakes. Once I knew I overstepped my bounds I corrected it.

 

I highly doubt Midway views Gorf as a source of income. They resist stuff like this being pirated in order to protect their rights for in the future in case it did turn out to have some money left in it in the future.

 

I just told you I have been in 'talks with Midway' saying otherwise and you still insist they don't

care. Well then, please, go ahead and call them up and see how much they care about Gorf.

 

You would be frighteningly shocked to know what they expect from me before I can ever

release this game again. They are pretty much willing, but we are A LOT Less willing now.

Beleive me.

 

They care alot more then you can possibly imagine and certainly enough to keep us from

doing it at all under these current circumstances. They are QUITE fond of their IP known as

Gorf.

 

The guys I am talking to are the very protectors of these IP's and indirectly, their lawyers.

The folks at Midway have been fantastic with this the whole time when they simply could have

ignored us completely.

 

I have every inention of not only respecting there every wish but have to also see to it that

their interests are protected too, out of not only professionalism, but respect and and simply

for what is right. Like I said you just do not know what you are dealing with. trying to come

after everyone would be a litigatory nightmare and is really the only reason anyone 'gets away '

with this.

[Bill Loguidice]

Piracy, of course, will always exist. But that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be made more difficult. Because the more difficult you make it, the less impact it makes.

 

Logically, it seems to me, that it's already easy enough for the truly motivated, who we all agree can't be stopped anyway by standard means. Again, you're making the assumption that the ~25 - 200 people who buy new Jaguar product are all going to run out and buy an expensive JagCF, use it for piracy, and not buy new product anymore. That they're going to get a hold of and distribute a virtual copy of a new game release each time just to slavishly play on their JagCF. That's far too many assumptions in my book.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if the Jaguar community is that fragile where it falls apart immediately after the release of such a device, then it will truly be the ultimate anomaly was not going to make it anyway. It seems to me that with the JagCF, development will be made easier, playing games will be made easier and more excitement can be generated around the platform, which it needs.

 

Also, I'll be blunt. As much as I'd like to see new software developed for the Jaguar, I think the potential benefits (possibly MORE development spurred) of a fully realized JagCF far outweighs the potential non-release of 1 - 3 new games that otherwise would have been made by said developers over the next five years. Nevertheless, I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting it all, both the "real" JagCF and those 1 - 3 new games...

[JagChris]

In other words, if it works in every other community, why not in the Jag community?

 

Examples?

 

 

Examples of what?! Let's see, how about the AtariAge store? You see new games for the 2600, 5200, 7800, ColecoVision, etc., released here constantly, despite the proliferation of devices for "running ROMs", despite the fact that many of the games (on the 2600 in particular) have their BINs made readily available IN PROGRESS, despite the fact that emulation on those platforms is mature and simple, etc. Albert wouldn't be selling this stuff and going to all the trouble if people STILL didn't want the real thing. The Vectrex and Odyssey2 are more great examples of systems with either flash or multi-carts READILY available, the latter which contains homebrews, that still receive regular releases on cartridge. People don't do that out of the goodness of their hearts, they do it obviously for the love of the system, the experience and the knowledge that they'll at least break even materially. Frankly, for ANYTHING low sales volume - which anything vintage hardware/software based naturally is - one can 99% of the time never hope to make back what was put into it. From my own perspective, I've been writing a book now for over two years and could NEVER possibly hope to recoup what my time is worth from the advance or what sales will ultimately be. I'm still doing it though.

 

Again, the relative size of the Jag community is irrelevant. If you expect sales of 25 - 200 copies of a game max anyway, how can you realistically say that such a device would have an impact on those figures? Someone who is going to pirate anyway is not going to buy the game anyway. They'll just find a way to get free stuff. That's a sad fact of human nature. The point of a COMMUNITY is that you have a strong cadre of supporters - I count myself amongst that group - who support as much as possible in the community, including so-called "enabling" devices and new software. You grow that community by offering as much as possible to get the most out of the old hardware as possible. It's not up to the developers of the JagCF to account for every eventuality and every concern or need. It's up to them to make the best device possible that they so choose and hope that they can at least break even on from some standpoint. If you choose to support or not support that, it's your choice. Same thing with choosing to develop or not develop. If something changes in your environment to cause you to not produce new product, so be it. Why does someone have to kowtow or beg?

 

This debate is obviously pointless at this juncture, since everyone seems quite firm in their own particular beliefs and are looking out for their own particular desires/situations. Fair enough. The facts are that the JagCF is a device that may sell 25 - 200 units and may be used for piracy. The facts are also that realistically that will have little impact on new homebrew releases, which themselves will continue to sell in that same range. And finally, the facts are that just the mere presence of a piracy device (dual cassette deck, disk copier, CD-r, VCR, etc.) does not automatically destroy an entire purchasing infrastructure. It just doesn't. You take whatever reasonable safeguards you can - nice packaging, copy protection, whatever - and then hope for the best. Again, no matter what, SOME jackass will copy it anyway, regardless of how "easy" it is. Ultimately, one really has NOTHING to do with the other in our world, and it never has. Society moves on despite the jackasses.

 

Got any Activision Romz fior the 2600?

[Bill Loguidice]

In other words, if it works in every other community, why not in the Jag community?

 

Examples?

 

 

Examples of what?! Let's see, how about the AtariAge store? You see new games for the 2600, 5200, 7800, ColecoVision, etc., released here constantly, despite the proliferation of devices for "running ROMs", despite the fact that many of the games (on the 2600 in particular) have their BINs made readily available IN PROGRESS, despite the fact that emulation on those platforms is mature and simple, etc. Albert wouldn't be selling this stuff and going to all the trouble if people STILL didn't want the real thing. The Vectrex and Odyssey2 are more great examples of systems with either flash or multi-carts READILY available, the latter which contains homebrews, that still receive regular releases on cartridge. People don't do that out of the goodness of their hearts, they do it obviously for the love of the system, the experience and the knowledge that they'll at least break even materially. Frankly, for ANYTHING low sales volume - which anything vintage hardware/software based naturally is - one can 99% of the time never hope to make back what was put into it. From my own perspective, I've been writing a book now for over two years and could NEVER possibly hope to recoup what my time is worth from the advance or what sales will ultimately be. I'm still doing it though.

 

Again, the relative size of the Jag community is irrelevant. If you expect sales of 25 - 200 copies of a game max anyway, how can you realistically say that such a device would have an impact on those figures? Someone who is going to pirate anyway is not going to buy the game anyway. They'll just find a way to get free stuff. That's a sad fact of human nature. The point of a COMMUNITY is that you have a strong cadre of supporters - I count myself amongst that group - who support as much as possible in the community, including so-called "enabling" devices and new software. You grow that community by offering as much as possible to get the most out of the old hardware as possible. It's not up to the developers of the JagCF to account for every eventuality and every concern or need. It's up to them to make the best device possible that they so choose and hope that they can at least break even on from some standpoint. If you choose to support or not support that, it's your choice. Same thing with choosing to develop or not develop. If something changes in your environment to cause you to not produce new product, so be it. Why does someone have to kowtow or beg?

 

This debate is obviously pointless at this juncture, since everyone seems quite firm in their own particular beliefs and are looking out for their own particular desires/situations. Fair enough. The facts are that the JagCF is a device that may sell 25 - 200 units and may be used for piracy. The facts are also that realistically that will have little impact on new homebrew releases, which themselves will continue to sell in that same range. And finally, the facts are that just the mere presence of a piracy device (dual cassette deck, disk copier, CD-r, VCR, etc.) does not automatically destroy an entire purchasing infrastructure. It just doesn't. You take whatever reasonable safeguards you can - nice packaging, copy protection, whatever - and then hope for the best. Again, no matter what, SOME jackass will copy it anyway, regardless of how "easy" it is. Ultimately, one really has NOTHING to do with the other in our world, and it never has. Society moves on despite the jackasses.

 

Got any Activision Romz fior the 2600?

 

Yes, I can see your wonderful point, that the easy availability of Activision ROMs and emulators for every system and device imaginable has dramatically cut into the sales of new official Activision Atari 2600 game compilations for modern platforms. I'm sure Activision would have sold 10 bazillion instead of the millions they actually did if those pesky pirates didn't ruin everything... And don't get me started on those failed Activision TV Game devices, which surely would have sold more than a paltry few million units if the ROMs weren't EVERYWERE...

[viMaster]

... and a lot of the animosity may just subside.

 

*sighhhhh* thats a good one

How long have you been in the Jag "community"?

Obviously not long enough

I've been here since about last December, maybe.

 

I thought the prospect of limiting the loading of ROMs to only those that are legal to do would have been enough. I guess I was mistaken

the problem is the routines could only be put into NEW and FUTURE releases, this doesn't protect any of the games prior to the CF. There lies the problem.

Hmm, I didn't realize that. I thought maybe there would be a way to block out specific roms in the CF firmware, like if there's some sort of unique identifier with all the old games out there that would be able to be blocked from within the CF's firmware. Though that would not be entirely efficient, it would certainly be the best way (if it's even possible.) But if the gurus say it's not possible, then I'll believe it

[Gorf]

Examples of what?! Let's see, how about the AtariAge store? You see new games for the 2600, 5200, 7800, ColecoVision, etc., released here constantly, despite the proliferation of devices for "running ROMs", despite the fact that many of the

 

 

Those devices done take srams cards do they? You acn upload a few games at a time.

this CF is the entire jag lib and much more on one cheap 256meg sram card. If this we

a cart more like matthias device, I'd be jumping for joy. the CF is clearly design for the

unexpressed purpose of romz. The only thing these guys need to do to not only shut us

up but even possibly gain our support is may the ram where a cart cant run. Put two

friggin terra bytes n the thing if you want, just keep it out of the cart area.

 

Few games at a time? The ones I have can handle damned near the complete libraries. Hell, I just got one for the Intellivision that has every game and prototype and hack ever made for the machine for use in my Cuttle Cart 3. You should see my collection of "real stuff" though for that system, including homebrews. Again, I'm not a "real" pirate. A real pirate only takes and never rewards. A real pirate will always steal. For my convenience, I'll use these "enablers", but I'm not in the business of stealing others hard work and always make a point of supporting new product with my $$$. I suspect a big portion of the Jaguar community is the same way.

 

Anyway, as has been said, can't you simply put in a reasonable protection in your game using whatever bit is required and you're as safe as you ever were? I'm still missing where exactly these floodgates are, but then I suppose I haven't done a forensic investigation of the Jaguar's innards to know anything I'm talking about...

 

 

Again, it's not even about people copying. Im not and idiot. I know its going to happen.

This particular platform cost alot to develop for when doing carts and requires a lot of

handywork. Yeah we can put out CD, but then not every one gets to play the game.

 

We regret that with Gorf. We wanted to do a cart too but unfortunately we had to conceed

our release as you all know. The only cart of Gorf that will ever get made will go to Jamie

Fenton. After all the damn thing was a tribute to Gorf and it's author.

 

Yes we can do a lot of things to protect ourselves but how much do you want to pay for

games? Our goal is to provide quality games at a fair and reasonable price. Carts are

costly as it is. To add the extra hardware would be even more so costly.

 

We are looking to get our money back and if we are lucky a few dollars to go out to

dinner and celebrate. We are not looking profit from anything here. We try to make

games with high professional quality and a homebrew hobbiest heart and NOT rape

the poor Jag fan doing it.

 

I'll repeat it yet again, If I can find a way that IM SATISFIED WITH, then yu can bet you

WILL see our games. Right now that aint happening.

[Gorf]

... and a lot of the animosity may just subside.

 

*sighhhhh* thats a good one

How long have you been in the Jag "community"?

Obviously not long enough

I've been here since about last December, maybe.

 

I thought the prospect of limiting the loading of ROMs to only those that are legal to do would have been enough. I guess I was mistaken

the problem is the routines could only be put into NEW and FUTURE releases, this doesn't protect any of the games prior to the CF. There lies the problem.

Hmm, I didn't realize that. I thought maybe there would be a way to block out specific roms in the CF firmware, like if there's some sort of unique identifier with all the old games out there that would be able to be blocked from within the CF's firmware. Though that would not be entirely efficient, it would certainly be the best way (if it's even possible.) But if the gurus say it's not possible, then I'll believe it

 

 

 

It uses an FPGA or CPLD...firmware updateable to defeat our defeat. Yes we are safe in Revision one.

Then we get douched in the next firmware update. And yes, there is a header on every Jaguar cart.

The trouble is, it can be stripped on most and the game will still operate. The CF should not have any

ability to run ANYTING from cart space memory areas. Plain and simple. Instead of the alowng upload to

addressspaces at the normal rom space of $800000, move it up to $804000. You wont be able to run

any cart that way without painstakingly hacking the hell out of it. That is a lousy 32 k sacrifice. Thery is

no need to run roms of even make it easy to do so other than being a pirate. Lets state it for what it is.

[Bill Loguidice]

Again, it's not even about people copying. Im not and idiot. I know its going to happen.

This particular platform cost alot to develop for when doing carts and requires a lot of

handywork. Yeah we can put out CD, but then not every one gets to play the game.

 

Forgive me for calling you out on what you wrote, but what you wrote just validated my point perfectly: "Yeah you can put out CD, but then not every one gets to play the game". Precisely! How does having maybe 25 - 200 JagCF carts in circulation (again, I'm thinking HALF that is being optimistic), mean that even if half again that number REALLY wanted to pirate your game, how much of an impact would that REALLY be? It's a percentage of a percentage of a percentage. The only 100% with Jaguar users is that they can use regular cartridges. That's it. That's the only universal.

 

And that's assuming that the maybe 25 - 200 Jaguar enthusiasts who would be interested in a new cartridge in the first place right now, would decide to forgo that purchase in lieu of tracking down a ROM. Again, whose to say that anything will EVER change with that group. You're not giving enough credit to the very audience you're targeting.

[Atariboy]

If wanting to play something like Checkered Flag without owning the cartridge makes me a pirate, so be it. I hope they don't do what you suggest.

[Gorf]

Forgive me for calling you out on what you wrote, but what you wrote just validated my point perfectly: "Yeah you can put out CD, but then not every one gets to play the game".

Precisely! How does having maybe 25 - 200 JagCF carts in circulation (again, I'm thinking HALF that is being optimistic), mean that even if half again that number REALLY wanted to pirate your game, how much of an impact would that REALLY be? It's a percentage of a percentage of a percentage. The only 100% with Jaguar users is that they can use regular cartridges. That's it. That's the only universal.

 

And that's assuming that the maybe 25 - 200 Jaguar enthusiasts who would be interested in a new cartridge in the first place right now, would decide to forgo that purchase in lieu of tracking down a ROM. Again, whose to say that anything will EVER change with that group. You're not giving enough credit to the very audience you're targeting.

 

I cant give credit to the audience in this thread as they all sound like they cant wait to

upload new games to their new device. If you sell 100 CF's that is about half of the

number of pieces sold for a typical jag game based on ther games devs info . There

goes half your hoped and projected sales and a nice chunck of the output you initially

have to cough up to produce the product in the first place. You have to buy parts in lots

if you hope to get any result. We buy in lots of 500-1000 and do not expect anything

near that in sales, not even close.

[Gorf]

If wanting to play something like Checkered Flag without owning the cartridge makes me a pirate, so be it. I hope they don't do what you suggest.

 

 

Why am I not suprised? Iwas quite convinced of your intentions.

You can afford a CF but not a Cybermorph cart for what..the

whole $5 dollars you can legitimately buy one for? Give me a

break! You can buy a lot of legally obtained games for the same

amount. The fact is you want all the games for as littel and no

matter how you get them. It's pretty clear to me anyway and just

more the reason you wont see any of our games until we find a

safe way to release them.

[viMaster]

... and a lot of the animosity may just subside.

 

*sighhhhh* thats a good one

How long have you been in the Jag "community"?

Obviously not long enough

I've been here since about last December, maybe.

 

I thought the prospect of limiting the loading of ROMs to only those that are legal to do would have been enough. I guess I was mistaken

the problem is the routines could only be put into NEW and FUTURE releases, this doesn't protect any of the games prior to the CF. There lies the problem.

Hmm, I didn't realize that. I thought maybe there would be a way to block out specific roms in the CF firmware, like if there's some sort of unique identifier with all the old games out there that would be able to be blocked from within the CF's firmware. Though that would not be entirely efficient, it would certainly be the best way (if it's even possible.) But if the gurus say it's not possible, then I'll believe it

 

 

 

It uses an FPGA or CPLD...firmware updateable to defeat our defeat. Yes we are safe in Revision one.

Then we get douched in the next firmware update. And yes, there is a header on every Jaguar cart.

The trouble is, it can be stripped on most and the game will still operate. The CF should not have any

ability to run ANYTING from cart space memory areas. Plain and simple. Instead of the alowng upload to

addressspaces at the normal rom space of $800000, move it up to $804000. You wont be able to run

any cart that way without painstakingly hacking the hell out of it. That is a lousy 32 k sacrifice. Thery is

no need to run roms of even make it easy to do so other than being a pirate. Lets state it for what it is.

Would modifying that usable address space to $804000 enable people to play with the few prototypes that people tend to pass around in the community? I mean, hopefully I'm not smacking the hornets nest around, but are prototypes like those ok to pass around? If they're ok to pass around (which has been done from what I have seen... and not by "pirates") then would it be possible to block all commercial roms and still be able to load the prototypes or do the protos use the same address space?

[Fadest]

Yes we can do a lot of things to protect ourselves but how much do you want to pay for

games? Our goal is to provide quality games at a fair and reasonable price. Carts are

costly as it is. To add the extra hardware would be even more so costly.

I'm pretty sure this could be only with software, testing to allocate extra RAM, testing PS2 mouse port, or new network chip should be ok...

Or, adding an EEPROM (like those on new lynx releases) with a code on the PCB, and read it. On Jag CF, this would not work, right ? Oh, extra cost, yes, something like 1$ probably

 

 

But my main opinion, is that some people would be against Jag CF whatever decison have been taken in the past, they would complain now that giving ability to Jag CF to play ROM would allow them to create a nice Jaguar cabinet (in fact, that was in first opinion asked by some people who now are against the feature, hard to please people, isnt it ) . I'm not speaking of developpers like Gorf or Thunderbird (who fight with same coherence emulators). I may be wrong, but it seems that this whole thing is just about being against for some people.

[Bill Loguidice]

Forgive me for calling you out on what you wrote, but what you wrote just validated my point perfectly: "Yeah you can put out CD, but then not every one gets to play the game".

Precisely! How does having maybe 25 - 200 JagCF carts in circulation (again, I'm thinking HALF that is being optimistic), mean that even if half again that number REALLY wanted to pirate your game, how much of an impact would that REALLY be? It's a percentage of a percentage of a percentage. The only 100% with Jaguar users is that they can use regular cartridges. That's it. That's the only universal.

 

And that's assuming that the maybe 25 - 200 Jaguar enthusiasts who would be interested in a new cartridge in the first place right now, would decide to forgo that purchase in lieu of tracking down a ROM. Again, whose to say that anything will EVER change with that group. You're not giving enough credit to the very audience you're targeting.

 

I cant give credit to the audience in this thread as they all sound like they cant wait to

upload new games to their new device. If you sell 100 CF's that is about half of the

number of pieces sold for a typical jag game based on ther games devs info . There

goes half your hoped and projected sales and a nice chunck of the output you initially

have to cough up to produce the product in the first place. You have to buy parts in lots

if you hope to get any result. We buy in lots of 500-1000 and do not expect anything

near that in sales, not even close.

 

You're obviously a logical person as a programmer, so I'll try to keep doing this in logical terms. You're assuming sales of 100 JagCF's, that those 100 JagCF users will pirate new games, that those 100 JagCF users will pirate your new games, and that those 100 JagCF users - who, in your mind would have eventually bought your new game without the JagCF's existence - will not buy your new game on cartridge because they already have the ROM. Crazy, no?

 

Now, I finally got a figure from you (sort of). You expect to maybe sell 200 cartridges of a new game release if all goes well in a world without the JagCF. Assuming that's accurate (that's the high end of my uninformed estimates, but OK), are you reasonably trying to say that that same audience will also be JagCF purchasers who will immediately stop buying new homebrews and instead go out of their way to pirate them? I just don't see it. Look, I could be way off here, but see two groups of people, those who buy homebrews and those who don't. Those who buy homebrews will almost always buy homebrews. Those who don't, won't, being content with emulation and "piracy". Is that fair? If so, then that means that a device like a JagCF will have neglible impact on cartridge purchasers. The pirates will find a way to pirate anyway, so when we're dealing with this type of volume, who cares about them anyway? They're a non-factor in this case. People who want to play free games are not buyers anyway. Since you obviously can't turn a profit on this or ever hope to recoup your time and effort investment, you're doing it for those 200 buyers, right? If so, then screw everyone else. Their satisfaction from your work would be hollow anyway, right?