adventure 3b

[Atarian7]

The instructions say everything is randomly placed. Does that mean everytime you start the game it will be a different location or does it remain the same.

[lonesome_pa]

I believe that it means that the objects are in different locations each time you play on that level. It has been a while since I played that game, so I'm going on memory and could be wrong.

[ROBERT]

Hello Atarian7:

 

One of my fellow TG referees informed me that it is not truly random. Rather, there is a moderate array of "scenarios" for this selection, meaning where every object is at the very beginning.

 

Optimally, you want the gold key right by you, and the white key between start and the white castle area, and the grail in the white castle. I had such a setup recently but that godforsaken bat snatched the grail away from me, else I'd have broken 40 seconds easily.

 

My friend estimated 15-20 scenarios, and the one I described was new to him so you never know.

 

Robert T Mruczek

Twin Galaxies - Editor and Chief referee

Star Wars classic arcade champion

(212) 366-3036 (work-day)

rmruczek@doremus.com (work E-MAIL)

 

******************************

[+-^CrossBow^-]

I had always heard that it was truly random and in fact you could get unwinnable games since the objects might be in places you can't get to without the object itself. Such as the finding the black key inside the black castle for instance. You can't get into a locked castle..and the key for it could be placed inside. I have actually had this happen. But then if the black key is in the black castle..then there isn't anything else in there that I need...so I can find the Chalice somewhere else.

[Chris++]

There are 18 different set-ups. Game 3 randomly picks one of these entire, kindgom-wide "blueprints" of where the objects and characters are. So the objects aren't randomly placed on an individual basis; the whole map is randomly selected from 18 maps.

 

From an interview with Warren Robinett on the Good Deal Games site:

"

I used the random object placement in level 3 for variety. I didn't want it to be like a puzzle, where once you've solved it, it's not very interesting to do it again. I wanted to avoid that. The bat was also added as a confusion factor, to move objects around a bit, so that the game wasn't too predictable. (I did make a mistake in my random object placement code, and there is a 1 in 18 chance that the yellow key will start out in the yellow castle, making the game unwinnable.)

 

As you may gather from the above, I think that randomness in a game is very strong medicine, and must be very carefully controlled.

"

 

 

CF

[Room 34]

I had always heard that it was truly random...

This comes back to the discussion we had about River Raid.

 

It is impossible for a computer to do anything truly "random."

 

Computers have to follow a set of rules. Many have a pseudo-random number generator which is really just an algorithm to generate a list of numbers that to the casual observer seem random. But these algorithms always need a seed. The only way to introduce any further (still pseudo-) randomness into the process is to base the seed off of the state of some process that is currently running, like a clock (if the system has one) or the particular point in a cycle when the user initiates an action.

 

Chris is right, from what I've read, that there are 18 potential arrangements of objects in Adventure version 3. I would guess that the "randomness" of which of these 18 is chosen is based on when in the system's clock cycle the user presses the Game Reset switch. Does anyone know anything more specifically about this scenario?

 

(In the case of River Raid, the seed is a fixed value, which is why each level always has the same configuration. But in the River Raid thread, Thomas showed us how to change the seed in the ROM code and get a version of River Raid with a completely different level configuration... but again, unless you go back and change the seed, you'll get that new configuration, exactly the same, each time you play.)

[brett6400]

So in the 1 in 18 scenario where the gold key is in the gold castle, is the game completely unwinnable? Couldn't the bat get the key out of the castle?

 

On some site (I believe linked from the Atariage 2600 Adventure page), the bat algorithm is described in detail.

[Nukey Shay]

The bat can't enter or leave a castle until it's portcullis is opened...and all three are closed from the start.

 

FYI the black or white keys cannot be randomly placed in their respective castles by the program...since all random objects have an upper and lower limit for the room number it can occupy. The problem with the yellow key is that the yellow castle interior screen falls between those two values. This could be corrected by changing the room numbers for the interiors of the castles to be at either end of the range. i.e. the yellow castle interior is room number $12...I suppose it could be swapped with room number $04**, which is the top of the blue maze. Then you could just set the lower limit of it's "randomness" to be higher than $04. In the "direction" table, all the $12 and $04 values would have to be swapped. The room numbers for the interiors of the black and white castles should remain at the end of the list though, to insure that the cup is always in one of them. I dunno if this hack would effect anything else, though...should I do it?

 

** I would use #4 since rooms 1-3 have hard-coded data that the program uses when you are playing game #1

[Room 34]

So in the 1 in 18 scenario where the gold key is in the gold castle, is the game completely unwinnable?  Couldn't the bat get the key out of the castle?

As far as I know, the bat can't get out of a castle it's locked inside of. But I would guess that since all of these limits of motion, object placement, and room relationships are based on simple mathematical formulae, there may be an exception to this.

 

But I am fairly certain that if the gold castle (at least) is locked, there's no way for the bat to get in or out.

[Nukey Shay]

Here's a list of changes to fix the yellow key problem...

 

Check room number of chalise--

F316 : 04

 

Lower bounds table--

F44C : 05

 

Fixed table for level 1's objects--

F475 : 04 (sword)

F47B : 12 (bridge)

 

Fixed table for level 2's objects--

F49E : 12 (green dragon)

 

Portcullis table (room to jump to when one is hit)--

F9AD : 04

 

Direction table--

FE3F-47 : DC FA 1A 0A 21 04 04 04 04 (inside yellow castle)

FE50 : 12

FE57 : 12

FE5F : 12

FEB2 : 12

FEBD-C5 : 3E FB 86 0A 21 10 05 07 06 (top of blue maze)

 

Here's a little fix so that the easter-egg screen actually goes someplace...

FE22 : 1E

FF2E : 00 (go to game select room)

[Mot]

I thought I came across a game where the black key was in the white castle and the white key was in the black castle and so they could not be opened.

 

Was that just a dream?

 

Let me get this straight...

Does the program sudo randomly pick each object to a place and therefore the number of combinations are 18 choose 11? 18 places to put stuff and 11 objects to put. The objects are Chalice, 3 keys, bridge, magnet, 3 dragons, sword, bat. (Surely there are more than 18 places.)

 

Or does one of the 18 say where each of the 11 objects go? I.E. number one will have the yellow key on screen x and white key will be on screen y and ?

and therefore there are only 20 placements of objects in Adventure (18 for game 3 and 1 for game 1 and 1 for game 2).

[Room 34]

I thought I came across a game where the black key was in the white castle and the white key was in the black castle and so they could not be opened.

How would you know that was where they were?

 

Or does one of the 18 say where each of the 11 objects go?

That is my understanding... that there are 18 different pre-set configurations of where the objects are placed, and the game pseudo-randomly selects one of those 18 configurations.

[Chris++]

Mot,

Your last guess was the right one.

 

CF

[Nukey Shay]

Nooo...there is not a table of 18 "pre-set configurations". Try to think of it in terms of a pattern. Everyone knows that if you move a certian way in games like PacMan, the ghosts will follow a predicable course. The ghost' courses are not layed out in memory at all, they just follow a pattern because the psuedo-random number being fetched is based on the player's movements at a given time. If you alter the pattern at any point, the ghost behaviour will also be altered. The same is true for the placement of objects in the rooms of Adventure, it just so happens that there is only 18 different starting values that the first psudeo-random value will be, and the others follow the pattern after. I.e. if the first value is a 3, the next five numbers will be 4, 5, 6, 12, and 8**. This will happen every time the number 3 is picked first...because the next "random" number picked will be based on what value is currently being held.

**Not really...I just used those numbers as an example of what it might be.

 

In my experiment above, this is confirmed. Simply by changing the room numbers of the non-random object locations, the entire seed value is changed for game #3 (unfortunately, the games are kinda easier with this seed IMO). Try it out!

Note: When starting the ROM, you may end up on the EE screen (since going down from the select screen is supposed to only wrap-around). Simply move the controller a bit to see the select screen.

adfixed.bin.zip

[Chris++]

Yesssssss, you will GET one of 18 pre-set total configurations. How this works in code is irrelevant; you will PLAY one of a possible eighteen total Kingdom "blueprints," without exception.

 

I'm talking about the player's point of view. I couldn't care less about how the code does this, because I'm not a Stella programmer, and can be guaranteed never to have the patience to become one.

 

I think it's great that some folks figure out how 2600 code does what it does. I did this with a lot of 8-bit games, so it's not like I don't identify with the curiosity. But it's not necessary, or even interesting in most cases, to look at the code in order to give people answers about the game-play. In this case especially, most players don't care how it works, any more than they're thinking about the raster line on the screen while they're watching movies. There ARE 18 pre-set object and character layouts possible in Adventure; whether they're all separately mapped out in the code is utterly immaterial.

 

In other words, don't take any of that the wrong way.

 

CF

[Nukey Shay]

Now you've got 18 more ... and another 18 if you simply change the bounds of one object (try the dragons, who wander a bit from the starting locations anyway...how about swapping the green and yellow dragon locations?).

 

Every game (in the "fixed" rom above) I've tried so far in game #3 has the list of objects slightly different than I'd seen it on the actual game. Even though the "list" of objects is untouched (besides moving the objects to the correct room numbers in the non-random games #1 amd #2), the seed value that the list apparently generates is altered because of the swapped rooms. You could change the bytes at F475, F47B, and F49E back to the original values to keep the seed value from being changed, but that would mean that the sword and bridge in game 1 would be in the opposite rooms (which is a bit more challenging), and the green dragon would be even farther away from guarding the bridge or magnet in game #2 (which makes that one a bit easier). The rules for picking a "random" room are unchanged, except that the yellow key can no longer be placed inside it's castle. That minor change makes the seed value change for all 18 variations** (I'd imagine that there is still 18 of them...dunno for sure).

 

** Note that even just a simple change such as adjusting the lower or upper bounds of a single object might be enough to change the psuedo-random "pattern" of all random games...just as a mis-timed turn in PacMan changes the ghosts' behaviour.

[Room 34]

Yesssssss, I've been playing Adventure for 20 years, and I can tell you that you WILL GET one of 18 pre-set total configurations. How this works in code is irrelevant; you will PLAY one of a possible eighteen total Kingdom "blueprints," without exception.

 

I'm talking about the player's point of view. I couldn't care less about how the code does this, because I'm not a Stella programmer, and can be guaranteed never to have the patience to become one.

Right. Either way, there are 18 fixed possible configurations.

 

On the programming side, the positions of the objects are a consequence of the seed of the pseudo-random number generator, not specific planning on the part of the programmer (as with River Raid).

 

From a player's perspective, there are only 18 possible arrangements, and you're going to get one of them each time you play, in a (seemingly) random order.

 

No, there is no table of placements of objects. No, the programmer did not plan exactly where everything would be. But from the user's perspective, it doesn't make much difference.

 

The only real difference it makes is that it justifies Warren Robinett's mistake that puts the gold key in the gold castle. If he deliberately put it there, it would be cruel. But it's just a coding oversight.

 

I guess I am kind of in the middle-ground between the player and the programmer. I am basically a player, but I know enough about the programming side (in a very generalized, abstracted way) to grasp what's going on in the electrons that gives us players an impression of the game working in a certain way.

 

I used to think that Carol Shaw planned where every object in every level of River Raid was. This was when I was a kid, long before I knew that there was no way the cartridge could store that much information!

[Nukey Shay]

Umm...there are object location tables for games 1 and 2...just not for the "random" game 3 (since it is only drawing psuedo-random values from the original placement in the unchanging game #2 offset by a fluctuating port value). You're right in saying that all of this is besides the point (since you still get 18 variations regardless)...but I was just trying to illustrate where these variations are coming from.

Naturally, nothing is truly random. Even if a game is basing it's seed value from ((how long it has been running + number of quarters in it's box + players who died before reaching 10,000 points) mod 256), it's still a pattern that could be "fed" into the game by a player that knew the variables).

[Chris++]

Yeah, I went back and proofread that message o'mine up there, with the "20 years" intro, and thought, "Well, jeez, that sounds awfully snotty, when I put it that way!"

 

So it's edited and there's an addendum. I'm a programmer, so it's not like I don't understand the impetus. But as Scott implied: From the player's point of view, the cartridge could be doing it by magic for all it matters.

 

(In fact, I've just recently learned from you guys that it's NOT magic... Something new every day, I tell ya!)

 

 

CF

[ROBERT]

Hello fellow gamers:

 

Always keep in mind that although the opening "patterns" match a small array of possibilities, once you start interacting with certain moving objects like the bat and the dragons, things change...

 

-> Bat carries objects that should be in place (A) to place (B), and/or exchanging them with other objects it is carrying enroute

 

-> Dragons interfere and/or get picked up by the bat

 

However, if a bat is carrying a dragon, I'd like to think that the dragon does not move until you reach a certain point in the game, but definitely I'd like to think that once a castle is open, the following is possible...

 

-> Bat carries out grail from castle

-> You let yourself get eaten

-> You re-appear and there's the bat, right at or below gold castle, making for an EASY win !!

 

Just my two cents.

 

PS - the current world record for game 3B is I think 49 seconds or so. I've done 60 myself for the current Atari-2600 time-based deca. Has anyone broke 49 seconds ? Just curious.

 

Robert T Mruczek

Twin Galaxies - Editor and Chief referee

Star Wars classic arcade champion

(212) 366-3036 (work-day)

rmruczek@doremus.com (work E-MAIL)

 

*******************************

[Nukey Shay]

True, but since the chalise can only be "randomly" placed in the white or black castle, while the keys and bat can start at many more locations...I doubt that this could be possible unless you are able to play the game precisely the same every time (since the moves you make will affect the dragons' and bat's locations). This would be very hard to pull off even in a game that only offers 18 variations...since they all begin pretty much the same (you in front of the yellow castle). You would have to wander a bit to find an object and guess at the variation number after spotting one...and by then, a dragon or two might have homed in on you (altering the pattern unless you have ESP).

Not to mention that resetting the game would probably be detramental to your "score" in an RPG...since this is effectively "resurrecting" your character (in RPG's, people often add "...and I never died once!" when bragging).

 

It would be difficult to pull off a score better than 49 seconds...since there is a fixed amount of time it takes your character to travel from the yellow castle to one of the other ones. Natually, a game that has the yellow key near the yellow castle and the bridge and black key in the blue maze is probably your best bet (since the chalise is in the black castle more often than the white...often in screen #3).

[Chadivision]

You know, none of this really matters because half of the time the red dragon eats you in the first five seconds of the game anyway!

[MagMax667]

There is a 1 in 18 chance that the yellow key will start out in the yellow castle, making the game unwinnable.

 

I got this scenario just a few days ago! I wandered around the kingdom forever trying to find the yellow key and coudn't find it. Finally I realized that I was officially locked out of the castle and couldn't win.

[ulij20]

I thought I came across a game where the black key was in the white castle and the white key was in the black castle and so they could not be opened. 

 

Was that just a dream?

 

Must have been, since there would be no possible way for you to know where those keys were, and it has been proven that the black key cannot start in the white castle, except for in Level 2.

 

What would be neat is for both the black key and the chalice to start in the White Castle and the gold key to start in the Black Castle. See how long it would take to solve THAT game!

 

I once thought that there was a game where the Black Bat was stuck on the sword in the secret room in the White Castle. But he grabbed a dragon that, for some reason, I had lured into the castle with me. I think he was flying downward so he kept going into the secret room, then the screen above it, then the secret room, and so forth.

 

One of the more interesting games I've come across is where both the bridge AND the chalice were located in the secret room. If the bat were locked inside a castle, the game would be unwinnable!

[EarthQuake]

3 year bump? O_o