Rom Hunter Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 (edited) It's almost like watching the C64 version. Thanks. We tried our best to make the colors and graphics match the C64 version as close as possible. The 8 Bit version has some levels with different colors, not sure which one we should go for. Personally I prefer C64, since that's the one I know from the past. Others may think different. As a veteran 'Commie' I hate to say this, but I think you should stick to the colors of the Atari 800 version. Peter Liepa wrote the first version on it and wasn't really a fan of the C64. Edited January 7, 2008 by Rom Hunter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 It's almost like watching the C64 version. Thanks. We tried our best to make the colors and graphics match the C64 version as close as possible. The 8 Bit version has some levels with different colors, not sure which one we should go for. Personally I prefer C64, since that's the one I know from the past. Others may think different. As a veteran 'Commie' I hate to say this, but I think you should stick to the colors of the Atari 800 version. Peter Liepa wrote the first version on it and wasn't really a fan of the C64. I agree, the Atari 8-bit version was the original and since you're porting it to another Atari system it only seems natural to match those colors. It's the version I grew up playing as well so I have some bias there, but when porting a game from one system to another I think it's best to try and use the original incarnation of a game as the basis for the port. ..Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimo Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 I can't believe how good this looks on the humble VCS, it would be a travesty if this never makes release Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 As a veteran 'Commie' I hate to say this, but I think you should stick to the colors of the Atari 800 version. Peter Liepa wrote the first version on it and wasn't really a fan of the C64. I agree, the Atari 8-bit version was the original and since you're porting it to another Atari system it only seems natural to match those colors. It's the version I grew up playing as well so I have some bias there, but when porting a game from one system to another I think it's best to try and use the original incarnation of a game as the basis for the port. Probably you are right. But then we need your help. All level data I found contains C64 colors (the Boulder Dash® fanbase seems pretty much focussed on the C64) and I only know a very few 8-bit screenshots. So we need for each level the correct color values used in the 8-bit version for each level, either as Atari color or as RGB values. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vdub_bobby Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 (edited) As a veteran 'Commie' I hate to say this, but I think you should stick to the colors of the Atari 800 version. Peter Liepa wrote the first version on it and wasn't really a fan of the C64. I agree, the Atari 8-bit version was the original and since you're porting it to another Atari system it only seems natural to match those colors. It's the version I grew up playing as well so I have some bias there, but when porting a game from one system to another I think it's best to try and use the original incarnation of a game as the basis for the port. Probably you are right. But then we need your help. All level data I found contains C64 colors (the Boulder Dash® fanbase seems pretty much focussed on the C64) and I only know a very few 8-bit screenshots. So we need for each level the correct color values used in the 8-bit version for each level, either as Atari color or as RGB values. You could ask someone in the 8bit forum to disassemble the Boulder Dash ROM for you; it wouldn't be hard to pick out the color data, probably. And I discovered, while porting Squish 'Em, that 8bit color values == 2600 color values. EDIT: I'll try to disassemble it myself. Edited January 7, 2008 by vdub_bobby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 You could ask someone in the 8bit forum to disassemble the Boulder Dash ROM for you; it wouldn't be hard to pick out the color data, probably. And I discovered, while porting Squish 'Em, that 8bit color values == 2600 color values. EDIT: I'll try to disassemble it myself. I just started myself, based on a dump. Finding the colors is pretty easy, since the level data around is always identical to the C64 version. I notified, that the Atari colors are pretty "psychodelic". E.g. where the C64 tries to display a bright white (except for amoeba levels) for maximum contrast (and IMO "cleaner" graphics), the Atari version uses a bright color instead. Not sure if I like that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vdub_bobby Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 You could ask someone in the 8bit forum to disassemble the Boulder Dash ROM for you; it wouldn't be hard to pick out the color data, probably. And I discovered, while porting Squish 'Em, that 8bit color values == 2600 color values. EDIT: I'll try to disassemble it myself. I just started myself, based on a dump. Finding the colors is pretty easy, since the level data around is always identical to the C64 version. Good, since I took a hack at it and, not being familiar with the code of any version, found it more complicated than I really wanted to deal with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r_type2600 Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 (edited) I notified, that the Atari colors are pretty "psychodelic". E.g. where the C64 tries to display a bright white (except for amoeba levels) for maximum contrast (and IMO "cleaner" graphics), the Atari version uses a bright color instead. Not sure if I like that... Got to agree - the C64's version colors are more easy on the eyes, the color combinations in the Atari version are really a bit unusual. On the other hand, the Atari is the original and one could guess its colors were intentional to emphasize the outworldish game experience... Best of course would be an option to switch between the two version's palettes But that would be quite a waste of ROM, I guess... Edited January 7, 2008 by r_type2600 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 Best of course would be an option to switch between the two version's palettes But that would be quite a vaste of ROM, I guess... Not at all, just 6 bytes/cave plus a few bytes of code. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercat Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 Not at all, just 6 bytes/cave plus a few bytes of code. I would think the 2600 would be pretty much stuck with doing palettes that can be achieved by changing the colors for the "red", "green", and "blue" scan lines. Three bytes per cave, but there's less flexibility of coloring than on other versions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 I would think the 2600 would be pretty much stuck with doing palettes that can be achieved by changing the colors for the "red", "green", and "blue" scan lines. Three bytes per cave, but there's less flexibility of coloring than on other versions. Yup, 3 bytes per cave and color system (NTSC and PAL) makes 6 bytes in total. The flexibility is lower than when you can freely choose colors, but we gained some by not just mixing fixed RGB values, but by having separate values for each cave. Usually the cave colors are definined like this: 1. a basic, dark color, which is e.g. used by the soil 2. a brighter color, which is mixed with the 1st color, resulting into e.g. the steel wall color 3. a very bright color, which is complementary to the mix result of 1 and 2, resulting into a bright gray (walls, highlights...) With these 3 (mixed) colors, we can (usually) can get pretty close to the colors of the original game. And by using different mixes (e.g. 1 and 3 for the amoeba), we also have some additional options. Finding good color combinations requires some trial-and-error, especially because the RGB values of the colors are not 100% defined. Defining the graphics is also a bit tricky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Andrew Davie Posted January 9, 2008 Author Share Posted January 9, 2008 This video shows level 13 in action. This has always been the killer level for me, because it involves so many creature calculations. Note the insane number of butterflies and an amoeba on the same screen. I don't really expect much speed improvement over this version, but we shall see. ... and the beauty of posting something like the above is that I think about the problem a bit more, and this time I came up with a great solution to speed it up... watch this space Cheers A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Hunter Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 Very nice! Andrew, I always wondered: what does the few seconds of 'fog' mean in the original version? I'm talking about the little stripes that appear in the empty spaces after you've picked up a few diamonds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Andrew Davie Posted January 10, 2008 Author Share Posted January 10, 2008 Very nice! Andrew, I always wondered: what does the few seconds of 'fog' mean in the original version? I'm talking about the little stripes that appear in the empty spaces after you've picked up a few diamonds. I know what you are talking about, but I have no idea. Perhaps something to do with time running out? Cheers A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tremoloman2006 Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 This video shows level 13 in action. This has always been the killer level for me, because it involves so many creature calculations. Note the insane number of butterflies and an amoeba on the same screen. I don't really expect much speed improvement over this version, but we shall see. ... and the beauty of posting something like the above is that I think about the problem a bit more, and this time I came up with a great solution to speed it up... watch this space WOW! No flicker! Great job! Can I revote on "What is Boulderdash worth to you" and bump it to $75-$100? I sure hope this gets completed and becomes a cart someday... would easily become my #1 favorite 2600 title! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercat Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Andrew, I always wondered: what does the few seconds of 'fog' mean in the original version? I'm talking about the little stripes that appear in the empty spaces after you've picked up a few diamonds. Extra life. Though it usually isn't a "few" diamonds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+remowilliams Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Damn! That looks great and no flickering! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dino Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Very nice! Andrew, I always wondered: what does the few seconds of 'fog' mean in the original version? I'm talking about the little stripes that appear in the empty spaces after you've picked up a few diamonds. I know what you are talking about, but I have no idea. Perhaps something to do with time running out? Cheers A It was when you collected enough diamonds to make it to the exit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Andrew, I always wondered: what does the few seconds of 'fog' mean in the original version? I'm talking about the little stripes that appear in the empty spaces after you've picked up a few diamonds. Extra life. Yup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Hunter Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Andrew, I always wondered: what does the few seconds of 'fog' mean in the original version? I'm talking about the little stripes that appear in the empty spaces after you've picked up a few diamonds. Extra life. Yup. I see. Thanks! Will this effect be in the VCS version too? Dino, after you've collected enough diamonds to open the exit, you will hear and see a flash. But the effect I was talking about are a few seconds of small stripes that appear in the empty spaces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Will this effect be in the VCS version too? The functionality will be there of course, but I doubt the effect will be the same (too many screen updates). Probably we will just replicate the sound and display the lives flashing for a few seconds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Hunter Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 (edited) Understandable. BTW: I'm sure you've avoided the PAL speed problem that was in the third intermission of the original? Edited January 10, 2008 by Rom Hunter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 BTW: I'm sure you've avoided the PAL speed problem that was in the third intermission of the original? Uhm... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Hunter Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 IIRC, in the 3rd intermission Rockford died right away when coming out of the exit in the PAL version of the original. I believe it had something to do with the difference in speed between the PAL and NTSC version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Andrew Davie Posted January 11, 2008 Author Share Posted January 11, 2008 I've been playing with a rewrite of the amoeba code. The amoeba is a difficult beast because of the various differnt things it does (randomly grow around the edges, turn into boulders when occupying too great an area, and changing into diamonds when 'trapped'). Implementing these characteristics has been difficult, especially as it has to happen in very small time-slices. Up until now I've used a simplistic 'fill' algorithm that just expands to all possible areas, but this had several significant problems, especially an inability to detect when it was trapped. I just this minute got the first fully-working vesion using this replacement code, and although it's glitchy as hell (indicating timing issues), it does actually work -- the video shows me waiting above a trapped amoeba to see what happened (and hell, it took me a dozen plays to trap the amoeba). Well, the video is a bit long, but the wait was definitely worth it. What you see here is the very first time I ever saw this happening, too. Here we see the trapped amoeba fill the available area, then after a bit of a delay (I'll work on that) decides it's trapped and changes to diamonds. Whahooo! Mind you, I couldn't get to any of the diamonds because I didn't leave a way back in -- how annoying is that?! The changing to boulder works too, but that's much less exciting so I'll leave that to your imagination. Also of note: correct font now installed so the digits look pretty much like the original. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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