Actionuats price tag ?

[Snider-man]

Food for thought for everyone: What if this wasn't Rob posting this poll and query? What if a "typical" modern Atari homebrewer (take your pick amongst the many we know) made this exact same post and poll, asking just how much he could charge for his new game and what his time was worth to you? How much different would be the attitudes and replies posted? Considerably different, I would guess.

[joeybastard]

Food for thought for everyone: What if this wasn't Rob posting this poll and query? What if a "typical" modern Atari homebrewer (take your pick amongst the many we know) made this exact same post and poll, asking just how much he could charge for his new game and what his time was worth to you? How much different would be the attitudes and replies posted? Considerably different, I would guess.

 

Not for me, my reply would be exactly the same.

[sukotsu9]

Watched "Once Upon Atari" recently and was corrected in my view of how "wrong" the programmers were treated. I always thought easter eggs came about because Atari didn't credit the programmers and they made poor money for their slavery/obsession. Then the $100k raises were mentioned. A VCS programmer nowadays won't ever see that kind of money (I doubt PS3 programmers do either) mostly because the skill has become a commodity. Man, when Atari was getting rolling, you could probably count the people skilled at game programming; maybe count on 1 hand the people who were really good at it for the VCS. Now, people just don't value the ability.

 

300 seems a few many for a limited run. Ironically, an age-yellowed, Schlitz-stained copy of Actionauts from 1980 would probably fetch $100-200 easy. But for the hard work & investment in the age of computing, $50 for a new production is probably pushing the envelope, regardless of recouping your costs or getting respect for your work.

[DEBRO]

Hi Tim,

Food for thought for everyone: What if this wasn't Rob posting this poll and query? What if a "typical" modern Atari homebrewer (take your pick amongst the many we know) made this exact same post and poll, asking just how much he could charge for his new game and what his time was worth to you? How much different would be the attitudes and replies posted? Considerably different, I would guess.

I was thinking sort of the same question but with a different spin. What if another former Atari programmer had the same poll? What if David Crane or Bob Whitehead wrote a new 2600 game for sale or released one of their old WIP? Would your vote be the same?

 

Interesting topic

[rob fulop]

Here is my advice Mr. Folup. The more you argue about how you should be paid a certain amount for the game, the more people will go against you. I would of talked privately with some of the homebrewers and the higher ups in this hobby. But bringing this out in the open like this does not help the cause. For me personally you deserve every penny and more. You're Rob "Freaking" Folup, and the fact that you are even communicating on this forum is a great honor to me. You are one of the all time legends in the video game industry. And contrary to Rolenta's opinion you are not like any other programmer. You are one of the programming legends in the industry. There is one thing you do need to know about this hobby Mr. Folup. This is not your average hobby. People in this hobby buy purely out of Nostalgia. Speculation in many people minds here is a curse word extreme. Something that will get you flamed to the high heavens if you even mention the word. People don't buy Cubicolor for an obscene amount of money looking to cash in at some future date. They do it because of nostalgia and because it is older and the perceived scarcity of the item. This is an underground hobby. I can not stress this enough. This is an underground hobby. Most people here want it to stay as an underground hobby. Main reason being that they believe that there is a certain purity that this hobby has that would get destroyed if the big spenders and big merchants ever came in. And quite frankly they do have a point. Go to any mainstream hobby like Comics, Baseball cards, or coins. And you will see something entirely different. You will see a face of a person that is not in the hobby because of a love of the hobby. But a person who is in the hobby to make a quick profit. Instead of discussing how great a certain card or comic was, most of the time they talk about market reports and how certain items have achieved a certain appreciation in regards to money in the past year. The talk is centered around the money and not the collectible. Go around the AtarAge website, the talk is more about the collectible and not about the money. If someone here were to show a chart showing how much certain video games have gone up in the past year or two, that person would flamed all over. So although you are a legend in this industry. Even though most people understand what you are saying. You are making an argument about money. And any time someone talks about money in this hobby they will have a negative reaction coming their way, legend or not.

I do appreciate your comments here. But I'm not sorry I brought this conversation into the public. It has been helpful in determining the price for an Actionauts cart. That price is $79.95. I'm comfortable that at this price I hardly feel that I am "exploiting" the community ... and will very likely sell out. Unlike others on this board who think everything should be free in the interests of their own enjoyment, I am addicted to eating, and like everybody else, I need to work to support this habit. I'm comfortable with this decision.

[rob fulop]

\And it's sad to think that people, regardless of their stature, should expect otherwise.

Does it make you sad that I have come to a decision that $4K / month is reasonable compensation for the time I put into making somehting for your enjoyment? Curious what you earn per month doing whatever it is you do? Why not just do it for free?

[DreamTR]

\And it's sad to think that people, regardless of their stature, should expect otherwise.

Does it make you sad that I have come to a decision that $4K / month is reasonable compensation for the time I put into making somehting for your enjoyment? Curious what you earn per month doing whatever it is you do? Why not just do it for free?

 

 

 

When will we be notified via email of how/when to purchase it?

 

Already signed up to get the game, and to be honest, I don't know why anyone is making a big deal on the price. It's an extremely limited release that is going to sell out no matter what. 300 copies in the internet age and rabid collectors? $74.99 is a drop in the bucket.

[pangasinan]

$79.95 is reasonable,now lets see the tight asses argue how it is too much ,now how soon do you want my money Rob Fulop ?

[CincYnoTi]

If you want to increase your compensation by $10,000, you need to come up with a marketing scheme which collectors will go for. So find some way to make a unique version that will sell for $1000-$2000 plus an additional 10-15 versions that will make up the additional $8000-$9000. What sells today for >$500? A prototype or WIP or extremely rare cart. Create one prototype on an eprom along with some paperwork (design diagram, handwritten notes, etc) and put it on ebay with a $1k starting bid. I WONDER if anyone would be interested in such a rare item???

 

Then you could create, or reverse engineer a couple of WIPs, with progressively less code, and sell them on ebay. These could be eprom on board or just eproms.

 

Then create an extremely exclusive run of about 5-10 production carts. The increased value of these would have to be bonuses added to the packaging, such as a tuft of hair or fingernail clippings (hey, people in the future will want DNA proof it's not a reproduction). You could number and label the cart, box, and instructions and sign each one. Again, put them on ebay starting at #1. Maybe you should use Roman numerals since the Atlantis II sticker is so valuable.

[tkarner]

Trying to find out how much to charge for a product by asking "how much do you value my time?", that's a loaded question. Supply and demand will dictate the price. If you want to test demand, put some copies up on ebay.

 

Writing software for 30 year old hardware is a hobby.

Expecting to make money off writing software for 30 year old hardware is, to put it mildly, a poor business model.

[black dog]

I think this game is unique, and that alone would make it more valuable than the average homebrew. I'm not balking at a price of $75-$100. But at this price, I honestly doubt you will sell 300 carts. The 2600 market is small enough, and the market for $75-$100 games is even smaller. If you want to maximize profit, and (as I'm hoping, for your sake) you didn't actually make 300 carts already, I'd suggest a smaller run, like 150.

 

If you already made 300 carts, I think you'll need to lower the price to sell them all in a reasonable amount of time (measured in years.)

I would agree with you. I think 300 carts is too many if the price tag is $79.95. I think the community is too small to support a production run of that size with that price tag. I myself will buy one at that price, but I don't think a production run of that size for that price is wise. Maybe 150 boxed and another 100 loose at a reduced price might be a better way to go. Like someone earlier wrote, these are tough times. I don't think everyone will be able to shell out 80 bucks for a game. I don't think this is a reflection on you or the game, just a sign of a tough economic enviroment

[rob fulop]

It's not 1979. No one is paying you a 'real' salary to program for the VCS with the idea the money will be recouped through millions of sales. Your game is not going to sell millions. Realistically you'll sell them all for between $50-$75 each so price it in that range. You can't expect a real salary for a niche hobby.

 

If that's not your worth your time, don't do it. It wouldn't break my heart not to play your game. There's tons of homebrews that are priced fairly for the community that many of us would be happy to support instead.

I don't consider 4K/ month a real salary .. not even close. Do you?

[rob fulop]

This is actually a very compelling discussion. I believe Mr. Fulop's original unreleased game would be worth more if it were for a platform other than the Atari 2600, which has the most prolific homebrew developers for any classic platform. This means that there are actually a wide range of new AAA titles for us to choose from well below the $50 threshold with box and manual. I'm a collector and player, but not a seller, so what I buy is just for me. I would personally need many factors to fall into place to pay more than $50 for a new Atari 2600 title, no matter how original or fun. If, as another poster suggested, the price point were $75, signed, with box and manual, then I would actually give it serious consideration. Any more and I just can't justify it (I've paid more for things like multi-carts and what-not that can justify a higher price threshold to me). I think at a price higher than $50 - $75 (and only the latter if signed), you'll get mostly speculators who will turn around and sell their copies on eBay for double the price (or try to, and will probably get it over time).

 

Bottom line, if you really want to get the game into the hands of gamers who would actually enjoy, appreciate and play the game, thus providing some more intangible justification for your personal investment, the lower you can price it while still being able to "look at yourself in the mirror", then the better off everyone will be. Otherwise you're just better off going onto eBay and selling them to the highest bidder until you reach the point of diminishing returns. Surely for the first 50 or so signed and numbered copies you could potentially go well north of $100 each time. If your goal is money, then that's the way to do it, if your goal is to serve the community - the players - then pricing it lower and selling it in a more traditional manner is the way to go. Unfortunately, it seems like that's not your goal and I understand that. I've often done things at a loss just for the accomplishment and getting the work into as many people's hands as possible, but I certainly don't do that with everything. At the same time, I also separate my "for a living" stuff from my "fun" or for a "passion" stuff, having the former often making the latter possible. Good luck whatever your ultimate decision.

my goal is to be fair to both sides .. the community and myself. I do not now, or have I ever, made games for "fun" .. it's my job. I see no reason to be embarrassed or even the smallest bit apologetic because I expect to be paid doing what I do.

Edited April 1, 2008 by rob fulop

[Thomas Jentzsch]

I don't think this is a reflection on you or the game, just a sign of a tough economic enviroment

With the Dollar going down dramatically, maybe Rob should target at collectors outside the USA.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

I do not now, or have I ever, made games for "fun" .. it's my job.

I really feel sorry for you, because for me programming for the 2600 is the most fun coding thing I ever did.

 

You miss so much...

[rob fulop]

If you want to increase your compensation by $10,000, you need to come up with a marketing scheme which collectors will go for. So find some way to make a unique version that will sell for $1000-$2000 plus an additional 10-15 versions that will make up the additional $8000-$9000. What sells today for >$500? A prototype or WIP or extremely rare cart. Create one prototype on an eprom along with some paperwork (design diagram, handwritten notes, etc) and put it on ebay with a $1k starting bid. I WONDER if anyone would be interested in such a rare item???

 

Then you could create, or reverse engineer a couple of WIPs, with progressively less code, and sell them on ebay. These could be eprom on board or just eproms.

 

Then create an extremely exclusive run of about 5-10 production carts. The increased value of these would have to be bonuses added to the packaging, such as a tuft of hair or fingernail clippings (hey, people in the future will want DNA proof it's not a reproduction). You could number and label the cart, box, and instructions and sign each one. Again, put them on ebay starting at #1. Maybe you should use Roman numerals since the Atlantis II sticker is so valuable.

those are all compelling notions. But I'm really not interested in milking this thing ... simply wanted to find the right price point. I think this discussion has yielded that information, as well as opened my eyes to the wildly unrealistic expectations of a community that for whatever reason do not think the laws of economics apply to them.

[Snider-man]

I think this discussion has yielded that information, as well as opened my eyes to the wildly unrealistic expectations of a community that for whatever reason do not think the laws of economics apply to them.

Wow. Just....wow.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

...as well as opened my eyes to the wildly unrealistic expectations of a community that for whatever reason do not think the laws of economics apply to them.

I suppose that would be me.

 

And I can assure you, that for me it is possible to largely keep business out of my hobby. I have rejected several "big" money offers for my work for various reasons. That is because I am not depending on that extra money (though it sure would have been nice) and I rather keep my "wildy unrealistic expectations" and preserve the fun for my hobby. Which is much more worth to me than a big $$$ check.

 

Maybe you should open not only your eyes, but also your heart.

[joeybastard]

It's not 1979. No one is paying you a 'real' salary to program for the VCS with the idea the money will be recouped through millions of sales. Your game is not going to sell millions. Realistically you'll sell them all for between $50-$75 each so price it in that range. You can't expect a real salary for a niche hobby.

 

If that's not your worth your time, don't do it. It wouldn't break my heart not to play your game. There's tons of homebrews that are priced fairly for the community that many of us would be happy to support instead.

I don't consider 4K/ month a real salary .. not even close. Do you?

 

Sure, it could be for somebody. I make more than that but you're missing my point anyway. Programming VCS games in 2008 is not a real job and will never be in the future. You can't expect to get paid for it at the same level as a job that's actually in demand by more than niche hobby market. I don't care whether it's fun for you or not it's realistically looking at your situation.

Edited April 1, 2008 by joeybastard

[rsiddall]

Was the prototype auctioned off earlier (Nov. 2007) as mentioned in the faq? Just wondering (ballpark figure would suffice) how much that sold for, if it did indeed go up on the auction block. Shouldn't this amount factor into the price-point as well?

[Bill Loguidice]

those are all compelling notions. But I'm really not interested in milking this thing ... simply wanted to find the right price point. I think this discussion has yielded that information, as well as opened my eyes to the wildly unrealistic expectations of a community that for whatever reason do not think the laws of economics apply to them.

 

 

With all due respect, you're approaching this as if you're still in the early 80's programming on a commercially relevant system. 99% of all developers on the system today seem to both accept and embrace the market realties. There's nothing wrong with trying to make money off of something you put time into - nothing at all - but you seem to be out of touch with what is in actuality going on in the community you're trying to re-enter. "The laws of economics" apply to the 2600 market today as it ever has, but that reality - right now - is low production runs (a few hundred copies) at about $20 - $50 a pop. I can't think of anyone actually expecting to make a living on a niche platform anymore. They do it for the challenge, the fun, whatever, but rarely with the idea that they'll come out any more than break-even financially. If you're in it for that, then you're targeting the wrong platform.

 

No one is trying to take food off of your plate. You put a question out there that in reality is not applicable to the target market. As a writer, when I write something that is not intended for a mainstream audience, I can't expect mainstream compensation. Sometimes I do it anyway, just because I want to. You have to pick and choose where you demand "fair" compensation for your work and be realistic about it, that's all. Hopefully you've found your price point at the ~$80 or so shipped threshold and sell all of your inventory. However, trying to tie profit margin to effort is an uphill battle in this scenario, as it is in many scenarios when you work outside the bounds of the mainstream.

[Wickeycolumbus]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Adventure II. That was the most anticipated release ever of a homebrew game for an old Atari console. It sold for $40 plus shipping. Personally, I would pay $50 for Actionauts, but no more than that. It's a matter of economics. I have never paid more than $50 for a game, and I don't intend to start now. Unfortunately, I'm broke right now, so I won't be buying it for any price even if I did have paypal.

Curious, why pay a penny for a game when they are all available to play free in emulation?

 

The author of Adventure II never released the ROM...

[rob fulop]

I do not now, or have I ever, made games for "fun" .. it's my job.

I really feel sorry for you, because for me programming for the 2600 is the most fun coding thing I ever did.

 

You miss so much...

LOL, yeah ... my job has always been fun. But it also has always been my principal means of support .. so it just makes zero sense for me to do pro bono work for a community that hardly occurs to me as a charity. People think nothing of begging me to sign their games, which I always agree to, and then the next week I see the same person selling their "signed" game on Ebay for a multiple of it's unsigned market value. So from my perspective, obviously different than your own, this community is hardly 'charitable' or 'needy' in some ways. Unlike you, I don't make "new games" for these people ... I am selling them my very last "old game" that I ever made. I thought long and hard about what would be required to do this, and why I am even bothering? For the very same people who bugged me forever to release this game, to then turn around and publicly weep about my wishing to earn a fraction of my income for putting in the time and effort to do so occurs to me, frankly, as brutal a slap in the face as you can imagine. It makes me sorry to have bothered. Do you HONESTLY think the money I will earn here compensates me for the time and effort involved? It's a token payment, at best. It's the smallest possible "thank you". And to have people begrudge the amount I've come to is just so insulting, it really is, okay? This whole discussion occurs to me as a perfect example of never a good deed going unpunished.

[joeybastard]

I rather keep my "wildy unrealistic expectations" and preserve the fun for my hobby. Which is much more worth to me than a big $$$ check.

 

And that's why I like your games are better than his Thomas. The enthusiasm for the game and work in making it is readily apparent on every screen.

[Wickeycolumbus]

Why do we owe you like 2K a month for your stupid mistake?