Looks like Actionauts is ready

[homerwannabee]

I have a question for you. Do you want the hobby to grow CPUWIZ? Yes or no? Do you want there to be 10 times as many people in this hobby as there are now? Yes or no?

 

Of course, why wouldn't I?

Because the games would become more expensive. If they become more expensive, than they become harder to get. If they become harder to get than people have a harder time getting the games they want. You once said you would be happier if Video Life was worth $5 or some low number like that. The only way games can be attainable is if there are not an expanding number of people in the hobby.

 

I could really care less at this point, wouldn't it be awesome to have a ComiCon sized Atari convention, where in one day 10000 (of the same) homebrews get sold?

I agree with you on this. So let's leave it at that.

[+Random Terrain]

Because the games would become more expensive. If they become more expensive, than they become harder to get. If they become harder to get than people have a harder time getting the games they want. You once said you would be happier if Video Life was worth $5 or some low number like that. The only way games can be attainable is if there are not an expanding number of people in the hobby.

The more money that hardcore collectors spend on games, the more of a tingle they feel in their pants, so they would love for the prices to go up. We need more people to join in. Grab them from places like YouTube and unrelated forums. Millions of people had an Atari 2600. We need to bring them back and suck in their children and grandchildren while we're at it.

[supercat]

What I do know is that introducing money as the main motivation of developing new games will change the dynamic of the community. Whether it's for good or bad I can't say, but things will change. I've seen it all my life in various jobs. When you have a group of people working together altruistically, things are usually fine. However, when you introduce compensation into the equation, it throws everything off. You have some people complaining that others are making more than them, and question why they aren't getting the same. And still others feel if someone else is getting paid, why should they continue to work for cheap/free. In the end, it creates conflict all around.

 

Money will never be the main motivation for anyone serious about making a 2600 game. There simply isn't enough money to justify spending any major amount of time on 2600 development.

 

On the other hand, money certainly is a motivating factor among many. I haven't really seen much new and exciting for the 2600 in the past year. I don't know to what extent money is the cause, but I guess I look at things this way.

 

Suppose someone who had a $40,000/year job was offered a list of tasks, to do at his convenience. If a particular task would take an hour and would pay $1,000 immediately, assuming that the person knew the offer was legitimate, he'd probably do that task as soon as practical. If a different one-hour task would pay $8, he might do it sometime when he had nothing better to do, but would not go out of his way.

 

I wouldn't want to disrupt a marketplace if it's operating well. I suspect, though, that prices are lower than would be optimum to encourage further development.

[supercat]

I have a question for you. Do you want the hobby to grow CPUWIZ? Yes or no? Do you want there to be 10 times as many people in this hobby as there are now? Yes or no?

 

Of course, why wouldn't I?

Because the games would become more expensive.

 

Increasing the number of people competing for a fixed supply of a commodity will increase the price. Increasing the number of buyers for new homebrew games would not raise the price (and indeed would probably lower it) since development costs for new games could be spread over a wider base.

[homerwannabee]

I have a question for you. Do you want the hobby to grow CPUWIZ? Yes or no? Do you want there to be 10 times as many people in this hobby as there are now? Yes or no?

 

Of course, why wouldn't I?

Because the games would become more expensive.

 

Increasing the number of people competing for a fixed supply of a commodity will increase the price. Increasing the number of buyers for new homebrew games would not raise the price (and indeed would probably lower it) since development costs for new games could be spread over a wider base.

True it would lower the price of Homebrews, but my guess is some of the homebrew people might want an orginal H.E.R.O. or Centipede which are at a fixed supply. It is not the Homebrews I am talking about it is the original games that would go up. I don't see how it's possible to have a huge homebrew community yet not have a huge classic gaming community. Those two things seem to go hand and hand.

[rob fulop]

John, what I found out a few weeks ago when I did my infamous "salary survey" was that most enthusiasts of this particular hobby are unwilling to pay the true price of what it costs somebody like yourself to make a new 2600 game.

 

BTW, first rule of holes: when in hole, stop digging. Your survey was not well-received, for a variety of reasons. Some of the marketing conclusions you draw from it have some truth, but the attitude conveyed by the survey questions may have skewed the results.

 

There isn't enough of a market to justify 2600 software development as a career path. That should be pretty obvious. Nonetheless, there is a continuum of people between those who would do it for satisfaction alone even if they lost money out-of-pocket, and those who would only do it if they could receive full market price for the time involved. Many people are willing to work for less than what they could get--sometimes significantly less--because a particular lower-paying job offers certain satisfaction that would be lacking in higher-paying ones. That does not imply, however, a willingness to work for free.

 

I haven't plotted which games were developed when, but there does seem to be a significant drop in the number of assembly-code games in the market place. If the demand for games would be sufficient to allow for higher prices, then increased royalties would seem likely to attract more developers (or encourage existing developers to spend more time finishing off their games). I don't know exactly what demand exists, but I would certainly think there should be more demand for better games.

Re: survey not well received. It was received just fine. The results spoke for themselves, and pretty much confirmed the notion of two very seperate and distinct 'market segments' in this small community. Gamers and Collectors. Maybe this was old news to most people, but to me, such really helped me clarify where something like Actionauts "fits", and thus what a fair price should be.

 

Re: 2600 development as a career path. I'm not suggesting that such makes any sense. What I'm suggesting instead, is that the development of new software for the platform be a somewhat 'substainable' organism .. that enthusiasts be willing to pay more than they have to date, in order to prime the pump and encourage more people to work harder on developing more content. There is an EXPECTATION that a new homebrew should cost not a lot more than $25. This is TOO LOW a price point to sustain any sort of ongoing development effort. I'm not saying anybody should make anywhere near the money they could make writing code for Microsoft here, that said, they SHOULD make more money than working at a fast food restaurant ... at least I think they should. Put another way, if everybody who enjoys homebrew games agreed that $2.5K / month is a reasonable wage for a designer/programmer to earn crafting 2600 games ... there would be more people crafting them. Yeah, the price would go up accordingly ... but with more content being created ... there is a more likely chance of new enthusiasts joining the party, thus creating greater demand, thus possibly lowering the price for a new game. But it has to start with people out here biting the bullet and asking themselves would they pay $10-$20 more in order to create at least some SEMBLANCE of 'fairness' to both parties? Because right now, it's not "fair" from an economic standpoint. The community relies on "donations" of designers time and talent .. and seems to react rather strongly to anybody who wishes to create a more balanced situation by asking to have their costs reimbursed. There is a sense of entitlement going on that I don't understand .. sort of "how DARE you ask to be compensated" .. like somehow such is anti-community thinking.

 

I'm suggesting that it is the "How DARE you ask to be compensated" attitude that ultimately proves more harmful than good to a small community like this. Such turns this into a community with their hand constantly "out" .. asking for 'freebies' .. thus it exists under the good graces of a few people like yourself perhaps. Such occurs to me like somebody "asking for free fish" .. as opposed to wishing to be taught how to fish on their own. You give a LOT to this community ... I'm curious what those who purchased your last homebrew game have given back? I'm suggesting they dig down and cough up another $10 or $20 .. in the interests of the greater good. And I think it sort of ironic that such is considered somehow "harmful" .. such is simply NECCESSARY for a sustained system to function. Basic oxygen.

Edited April 14, 2008 by rob fulop

[supercat]

True it would lower the price of Homebrews, but my guess is some of the homebrew people might want an orginal H.E.R.O. or Centipede which are at a fixed supply. It is not the Homebrews I am talking about it is the original games that would go up. I don't see how it's possible to have a huge homebrew community yet not have a huge classic gaming community. Those two things seem to go hand and hand.

 

Centipede may be in 'fixed' supply, but I don't think there's any real shortage of them. HERO's a little harder to find, but not difficult.

 

Although a few really good games are scarce, for the most part the best 2600 games tend to be pretty easily available. Almost all of the good games from 'back in the day' can be found for less than $20. Prices may go up some, but I'd be surprised if there were many good 1980's games that couldn't be found for less than the cost of a homebrew.

[+remowilliams]

You need to understand something about the people in this hobby. The people in this hobby do not want this hobby to grow. The Atari 2600 community is underground, and there are people here who want it to remain that way.

 

[Mirage]

True it would lower the price of Homebrews, but my guess is some of the homebrew people might want an orginal H.E.R.O. or Centipede which are at a fixed supply. It is not the Homebrews I am talking about it is the original games that would go up. I don't see how it's possible to have a huge homebrew community yet not have a huge classic gaming community. Those two things seem to go hand and hand.

 

Centipede may be in 'fixed' supply, but I don't think there's any real shortage of them. HERO's a little harder to find, but not difficult.

 

Although a few really good games are scarce, for the most part the best 2600 games tend to be pretty easily available. Almost all of the good games from 'back in the day' can be found for less than $20. Prices may go up some, but I'd be surprised if there were many good 1980's games that couldn't be found for less than the cost of a homebrew.

 

And if new community members really just wanted to play the games, there's always Krokodile Cart-type options, which there would be more of if there was a larger market. Any number of people can play roms. Collecting original carts is another story, but many may just like to play, just as many in our current community are largely players, not collectors.

[+SpiceWare]

When did Thomas Jentzch last release a full-fledged game? How about Chris Walton? Or John Champeau? Or Darrel Spice, Jr.? Or me, for that matter?

 

I can't speak for the others, but I know that I'd spend more time finishing off some of my WIPs if I knew that such efforts would turn into more cash.

True - Medieval Mayhem took me 9 months to write and I think I almost made enough in the first year of MM sales to make 1 car payment.

 

Granted what I learned will now let me turn out a game quicker, as seen by about 2 months for Stay Frosty, but that's still a lot of time for little return.

[homerwannabee]

You need to understand something about the people in this hobby. The people in this hobby do not want this hobby to grow. The Atari 2600 community is underground, and there are people here who want it to remain that way.

 

I can see that you are a really civil person who gives people the utmost respect possible.

Edited April 14, 2008 by homerwannabee

[+batari]

I personally would not like to see developers heading to this community looking to make a buck. They would be doing so on the backs of those of us who did the work for free and share openly. People looking to profit are not likely to want to share any new information, and closed-development would be the norm among them.

 

What if we charged money for Dasm? For Stella? For batari Basic? Access to the Stella list archive? Access to Atariage? What would happen then? Quite clearly, the homebrew community wouldn't exist at all if not for the efforts of those willing to work for nothing in pursuit of a hobby they enjoy.

[Lord Thag]

I'm suggesting that it is the "How DARE you ask to be compensated" attitude that ultimately proves more harmful than good to a small community like this. Such turns this into a community with their hand constantly "out" .. asking for 'freebies' .. thus it exists under the good graces of a few people like yourself perhaps. Such occurs to me like somebody "asking for free fish" .. as opposed to wishing to be taught how to fish on their own. You give a LOT to this community ... I'm curious what those who purchased your last homebrew game have given back? I'm suggesting they dig down and cough up another $10 or $20 .. in the interests of the greater good. And I think it sort of ironic that such is considered somehow "harmful" .. such is simply NECCESSARY for a sustained system to function. Basic oxygen.

 

Now that I will agree with. Having coded several demos on the VCS, and programming twenty or so PC games over the years, I know how much work goes into a game. For me, personally, it's a fun hobby, and I generally just give out the game, but then again, I'm a Linux 'open-source' kinda guy. The programing is just fun to me. Not everyone is going to be like that.

 

That said, I have no qualms whatsoever about paying a reasonable amount as a way of saying thank you to those who put the time and effort into coding a new game. A hack is one thing, but a full-one from the ground up cart like Adventure II takes years. The game shouldn't cost more than a new PS2 game, in my opinion, but I'd be happy to pay around $40 for a new game, if that extra $15 will help motivate more folks to program new games, so long as the product and packaging are well done. The Haunted Adventure games are a good example. There's a big difference between $40 and $80 though. Actionauts can get away with it because it's a piece of history (and therefore collectable), but other games will not be so lucky, I think.

 

As far as keeping the community alive, if an extra ten bucks helps people stay happy and writing new games, then hell, I'm in. Once you start getting past $45 or so, you start entering that area where you lose most of the gamers. Collectors may drive the market, but both sides keep the communty alive. Most of the topics around here center around gameplay in some form. That's what makes atariage what it is.

 

Even so, when I get time to finish my vcs game, I'll be charging only what it costs to produce. Why? Because this community has given me years of enjoyment, and I've me a hell of a lot of nice people, and made a couple of very dear friends. I've started helping out with NWCGE. I've had a blast. Guess it's my way of saying 'thank you'.

 

So what do the rest of you think? If ten dollars more a cart would help keep people coding, would you be willing to pay? That's the catch though. Would that extra money really motivate people? I'm not so sure it would. What do you think?

[Mirage]

So what do the rest of you think? If ten dollars more a cart would help keep people coding, would you be willing to pay? That's the catch though. Would that extra money really motivate people? I'm not so sure it would. What do you think?

 

Earlier this evening, in light of this discussion, I looked through the AtariAge store at the prices for the various homebrews (I ignored hacks and repros etc for this purpose). In the new light, I now view some of them as being priced lower than they possibly could be. I don't have a lot of extra money to put into homebrews (if I did, I'd buy a lot more of them), but a little extra for the really good games would be worth it. There are some really really solid games in there. Would it motivate programmers to create new games? I can't say, but I'd be interested in hearing from more of the homebrew authors on this subject.

[ActionGeek]

If it means anything to you, Mr. Fulop, I've always been a big fan of Cosmic Ark.

[supercat]

Put another way, if everybody who enjoys homebrew games agreed that $2.5K / month is a reasonable wage for a designer/programmer to earn crafting 2600 games ... there would be more people crafting them.

 

When you say $2.5K/month, are you figuring 160 hours/month of productive nose-to-the-grindstone work for that $2.5K? Games here are generally not produced in 40-hour work weeks. More like two hours here, thirty minutes there, twelve hours there, etc. Since the time spend programming can probably vary from 0 to 50 hours in a week, a monthly salary isn't really a meaningful measurement.

 

As for time, I could probably have shipped Strat-O-Gems after I'd spent about a quarter of the time I actually spent, and it probably would have been reasonably well received. Since I was doing it on my own time, however, and wanted it to have some extra-neat features, I spent a lot of time refining it. From an economic standpoint, that was probably not an optimal use of time, but from a personal satisfaction standpoint, it's just fine.

 

But it has to start with people out here biting the bullet and asking themselves would they pay $10-$20 more in order to create at least some SEMBLANCE of 'fairness' to both parties? Because right now, it's not "fair" from an economic standpoint. The community relies on "donations" of designers time and talent .. and seems to react rather strongly to anybody who wishes to create a more balanced situation by asking to have their costs reimbursed. There is a sense of entitlement going on that I don't understand .. sort of "how DARE you ask to be compensated" .. like somehow such is anti-community thinking.

 

What matters isn't what's "fair". What matters are the price levels that will affect buyers, and the royalty levels that will attract developers. To the extent that they overlap, great. If they don't overlap, there's no meaningful market.

 

An aspect, though, that you're probably not aware of is that on many games a number of people will help out without payment. Mostly pretty small contributions (an hour or two here and there). If the programmer's not seen as making any real money, someone who draws up some graphics probably won't mind not getting a cut. But if the programmers start making real money for their time, then the other contributors would want some payment as well. Not unreasonable, but it would likely lead to friction that could be more easily avoided with the generalized-reciprocity model (I helped you with some graphics for your game, so you'll help me with some sound in my next one, etc.)

[rob fulop]

As someone else above said, I can understand that outlook if you're considering things from a financial POV. But there's more to this hobby than just money, and IMHO that's how it should be.

I really think you are mistaking "sustainability" for "greed". Right now, the situation is not a self supporting system, for the most part, people like yourself are subsidizing those who have the expectation that such is the way things "should be". I'm not even remotely suggesting that this hobby be about "the money". Instead, i'm suggesting that it will have a longer, healthier lifespan if enthusiasts cheerfully "pay as they go" and not EXPECT people like you to entertain them without compensation.

 

The current 2600 gamer crowd sort of occurs to me similar to our welfare system ... where over time .. those who receive a regular check from the government simply for "being" come to think of such as their RIGHT .. like somehow they deserve money showing up in their mailbox each week since that's what has always been .. money just appears in their mailbox .. poof .. like magic .. each week. Truth is, MANY of the avid 2600 gamers who purchase new homebrews can afford another $10 or $20 ... they really can ... as such reflects the REAL cost of the game .. and not the subsidized price they are used to paying. Getting them to kick in another $10 or $20 hardly turns this community into a financial centric group of profiteers .. it simply keeps the beast alive without the need for a transfusion from guys like you and John on a regular basis.

[rob fulop]

You need to understand something about the people in this hobby. The people in this hobby do not want this hobby to grow. The Atari 2600 community is underground, and there are people here who want it to remain that way. I personally disagree with this sentiment, but I fully understand it.

C'mon .. any community that transacts business regularly on EBAY is hardly "underground". Any community that meets regularly in Las Vegas is not one that could be described as a 'secret society' of any kind.

[+Random Terrain]

If it means anything to you, Mr. Fulop, I've always been a big fan of Cosmic Ark.

Looks like somebody will be getting a free copy of Actionauts.

 

Demon Attack is my favorite:

 

http://www.atariage.com/programmer_page.ht...ProgrammerID=27

[supercat]

I really think you are mistaking "sustainability" for "greed". Right now, the situation is not a self supporting system, for the most part, people like yourself are subsidizing those who have the expectation that such is the way things "should be". I'm not even remotely suggesting that this hobby be about "the money". Instead, i'm suggesting that it will have a longer, healthier lifespan if enthusiasts cheerfully "pay as they go" and not EXPECT people like you to entertain them without compensation.

 

One major factor I suspect is that, for a new 2600 programmer, the thrills of discovering new tricks on the 2600 and finding that one can produce a game that people will pay money for, are rewards in and of themselves, but those rewards diminish with experienced programmers. I'm sure many programmers here would be thrilled if they could make a game that sold 1,000 copies, but I suspect that for someone whose games have sold millions, the thrill of selling 1,000 copies would be pretty minimal.

 

The current 2600 gamer crowd sort of occurs to me similar to our welfare system ... where over time .. those who receive a regular check from the government simply for "being" come to think of such as their RIGHT .. like somehow they deserve money showing up in their mailbox each week since that's what has always been .. money just appears in their mailbox .. poof .. like magic .. each week. Truth is, MANY of the avid 2600 gamers who purchase new homebrews can afford another $10 or $20 ... they really can ... as such reflects the REAL cost of the game .. and not the subsidized price they are used to paying. Getting them to kick in another $10 or $20 hardly turns this community into a financial centric group of profiteers .. it simply keeps the beast alive without the need for a transfusion from guys like you and John on a regular basis.

 

Perhaps the bold-faced word should be "of". What's the largest number of AA games by a single programmer?

[yuppicide]

I have no problems with his price or the shipping. I want it. Too bad I didn't get the email today. I definitely am still down for one.

[supercat]

Demon Attack is my favorite:

 

When I first saw Demon Attack, I thought there must be some special circuitry in there or something to do those magical colors. The irony is that as kernels go it's actually comparatively simple. The key wasn't technical wizardry, but rather the decision to use real artists (well, the decision to use a black background probably helped too).

[+remowilliams]

C'mon .. any community that transacts business regularly on EBAY is hardly "underground". Any community that meets regularly in Las Vegas is not one that could be described as a 'secret society' of any kind.

Ahhh! You've blown our cover!

 

 

[homerwannabee]

You need to understand something about the people in this hobby. The people in this hobby do not want this hobby to grow. The Atari 2600 community is underground, and there are people here who want it to remain that way. I personally disagree with this sentiment, but I fully understand it.

C'mon .. any community that transacts business regularly on EBAY is hardly "underground". Any community that meets regularly in Las Vegas is not one that could be described as a 'secret society' of any kind.

Maybe, I am using the wrong word. It's a small community comparatively to coin collecting and comic book collecting. I have been ridiculed by the community for thinking that someday that Video Game collecting would be on the same level. For the intense ataganism I recieved by suggesting that classic video games would be worth way more than they are now, I rationalized this due to a small town type of attitude where the people of the town don't want too many new people to move in because it would ruin the make up of the community. I had to rationalize why people felt this way and hence why I have the perspective I have. Who knows it could very well be that I am completely off base. It would not be the first time I have been off base admittedly.

 

Here is an example of the antagonism I have received.

http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=115655

 

Edit: in fact here is a post by Dino that reflects exactly what I was saying. Post #23

 

"On the contrary, it will be BETTER for collectors, as those who stay in the hobby will be able to amass far better collections than they would if the collector base increased to 100,000 and demand for games went through the roof.

 

 

I'm in 2 minds as to whether i want more people to join the hobby. The reason I say this is if 100,000 people joined and started to demand some of the rarities, driving prices through the roof, you would find that a lot of speculative collectors and re-sellers would jump on the bandwagon and try to make a quick buck. You can see from Ebay already how nasty people get when it comes to rarities, with side-deals and re-selling because the monetary value is quite high. The rate of scams is also on the increase. For a lot of people, $1k+ is a LOT of money and unfortunately, there are a lot of people who will backstab and cheat and lie to get true collectors to fork out that kind of money. If the most rare items sold for $100 tops, these hawkers and scammers would disappear and the hobby would be left to the collectors."

Edited April 14, 2008 by homerwannabee

[+Random Terrain]

Demon Attack is my favorite:

When I first saw Demon Attack, I thought there must be some special circuitry in there or something to do those magical colors. The irony is that as kernels go it's actually comparatively simple. The key wasn't technical wizardry, but rather the decision to use real artists (well, the decision to use a black background probably helped too).

Yeah, I have that info here too:

 

http://www.randomterrain.com/atari-2600-me...rite-games.html

 

I'm not an artist, but I always wanted to try to create my own Imagic-like graphics. Thanks to batari Basic and the IDE called Visual batari Basic, at least I have a chance to try. I'll probably fail, but it will be fun trying.