atariksi Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 Formally there's no raster register nor a real interrupt, but it can check whether 'sprite 0' is being drawn at a certain moment. Many times some screen split is handled by this sprite 0 trick. F.e. in Super Mario Bros it is used to split the screen underneath the score bar, i.e. split the screen into zones with different scrolling properties. I still wonder why the NES doesn't have real timer or raster NMI/IRQ etc., in some sense it didn't learn from the previous machines on the market. Y'know... i vagely wondered about screen splits on the NES and had assumed they were just large wait loops until roughly the right scanline. That's what i love about this thread, you can argue the subjectivity of beauty and learn cool stuff about 8-bits! =-) yes... that's why I am still reading this shit here but not spending too much time in arguing... but we should split up these thread into 2 subs...one for bashing and one for technical discussion neverless what it will be at the end... Arguing the subject of beauty is also technically related to how computer palettes and colors represent pictures. That is if you don't think millions of colors and 8 colors can do the same job on a picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 Of course, it's just better looking not beautiful. Rubbish deleted. Stop twisting words. You have no idea what is Chewbacca defense nor the point that was being discussed. And with that you've finally dragged our entire conversation totally away from the original topic and into a tangent; that's the Chewbacca defense in a nutshell and i think i'll take it as my cue to just ignore everything you have to say from here onwards because it's obviously not worth reading, let alone replying to. Feel free to twist things around like you always do to pretend that my giving up on trying to have an intelligent conversation with you is somehow a petty little victory, i still stand by all of my points and provided more than enough reasoning to counter yours. Now, back to the topic... erm, can't think of anything that's better on the A8 where it exists for both that hasn't already been mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 Of course, it's just better looking not beautiful. Rubbish deleted. Stop twisting words. You have no idea what is Chewbacca defense nor the point that was being discussed. And with that you've finally dragged our entire conversation totally away from the original topic and into a tangent; that's the Chewbacca defense in a nutshell and i think i'll take it as my cue to just ignore everything you have to say from here onwards because it's obviously not worth reading, let alone replying to. Feel free to twist things around like you always do to pretend that my giving up on trying to have an intelligent conversation with you is somehow a petty little victory, i still stand by all of my points and provided more than enough reasoning to counter yours. Now, back to the topic... erm, can't think of anything that's better on the A8 where it exists for both that hasn't already been mentioned. Nice way to cop out-- another FALSE accusation after not being able to stick to the topic and being completely inept to reply such simple points. You falsely accuse others of chewbacca defense while committing it-- hypocrite. You also skipped over some relevant points. By the way, just google "beauty quotes" and you can get a whole bunch rather than being biased and distorting one quote to try to force fit it where it doesn't belong. You can't see the self-contradictory remark of arguing in favor of color RAM and at the same time speaking against more colors and more shades and speculating they are subjective. Go try your bullcrap on someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 ... The dictionary entry for the word "carcass" has definitions that have no relationship whatsoever to death so, since you were the one wanting to bring dictionary definitions into this part of the discussion, it follows that either you didn't know about those other meanings and are not as educated as you believe yourself or that you simply didn't read any my point closely enough and your reply must be considered questionable under those circumstances. ... This is just for the record (although irrelevant to the point) so people can look it up themselves-- carcass is dead body of an animal. However, the analogy by exaggeration applies not misreading anything. If someone says I can render HAM Amiga images in 320*200*16 and I say you can't render HAM Amiga images in 320*200*256, it's not misreading but declaring a worse case. So even dead carcasses look beautiful with more colors and shades what to speak of carcass of a sofa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desiv Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 This is just for the record (although irrelevant to the point) so people can look it up themselves-- carcass is dead body of an animal. Although the most common definition, there are others; as in a human body, living or dead. Or, an unfinished framework of some type. Considering the fact that there are multiple valid definitions that can all be accurate depending on perspective, I really question whether or not is it irrelevant. Perhaps its the most relevant part of the discussion. desiv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 I think for each game you can find on the C64 which is better than the A8 version, there is a higher rated C64 game which is even better on the A8. I can live with that.... As long as I have these to play on my Commodore: (Taken from Lemon64 top list) 8.93 Supremacy 8.93 Maniac Mansion 8.92 Pirates! 8.90 Project Stealth Fighter 8.89 Zak McKracken and Al... 8.87 Last Ninja 2 8.86 IK+ 8.81 Turrican II: The Final fight 8.80 Archon: The Light ... 8.76 Wasteland A8 has Archon wich is better in A8 fans opinion... fine by me... A8 also has IK+ wich is graphicaly little weaker than C64 version (lack of details in the fight area) but if you ask me good as C64s... So when you have ports of those other 7 games, than I will say there is a reason to compare further down the list... To be fair here is first 10 games from Atarimania: 1 Rescue on Fractalus! 8.12 2 Yoomp! 8.10 3 MULE 8.10 4 Dropzone 8.10 5 Animal Party 8.10 6 International Karate 8.09 7 Boulder Dash 8.05 8 Bruce Lee 8.04 9 Eidolon (The) 8.04 We have most of these... And none of those is a bad game... We do miss Yoomp - but some of us are working on that subject I don't know why but I don't miss Animal party at all... no offence but seems to me its on the list just because its something new and fresh... I find it interesting. The most games of the A8 tops, you don't have on 16 bit machines. The most C64 tops you find in much better versions on 16 bit machines... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockford Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 27 - RUFF AND REDDY IN THE SPACE ADVENTURE C64 C64 C64 The C64 version has much better sound, graphics, sprites, handling and plays smoothly. The Atari version works slower (even though the play area is much smaller). C64 shows its power again. ATARI ATARI ATARI Specially for atarian 63 This game is better on C64 because: A - bad Atari programming B - much more love for C64 C- it's better on Atari Take a pick 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 I find it interesting. The most games of the A8 tops, you don't have on 16 bit machines. The most C64 tops you find in much better versions on 16 bit machines... I guess its connected to year of release... by the time 16bits hit its peak, those games were old news... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 (edited) 27 - RUFF AND REDDY IN THE SPACE ADVENTURE Well, having a closer look at the title you see the botched work of a cheap production. As you might see, in the original picture they used the same brightness on the brown and blue colour. the key here is the needed redraw of the garbage can. The original seemed to have the right brightness available, but the imported bitmap to the A8 not. You see a quick 4 colour "palette correction. Some parts would have needed a redraw, which was not done. You may chose whether some botcher was at work or money saving purposes happened. Edited September 27, 2009 by emkay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 I find it interesting. The most games of the A8 tops, you don't have on 16 bit machines. The most C64 tops you find in much better versions on 16 bit machines... I guess its connected to year of release... by the time 16bits hit its peak, those games were old news... But it also shows the superiority of the A8, for it's lifespan.... Having something really superior available. While the C64 only was a budget machine with budget software, easily outdone by other machines of the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 I find it interesting. The most games of the A8 tops, you don't have on 16 bit machines. The most C64 tops you find in much better versions on 16 bit machines... I guess its connected to year of release... by the time 16bits hit its peak, those games were old news... But it also shows the superiority of the A8, for it's lifespan.... Having something really superior available. While the C64 only was a budget machine with budget software, easily outdone by other machines of the same time. Don't talk such nonsense. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchman Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 I find it interesting. The most games of the A8 tops, you don't have on 16 bit machines. The most C64 tops you find in much better versions on 16 bit machines... I guess its connected to year of release... by the time 16bits hit its peak, those games were old news... But it also shows the superiority of the A8, for it's lifespan.... Having something really superior available. While the C64 only was a budget machine with budget software, easily outdone by other machines of the same time. That is so true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 (edited) Don't talk such nonsense. LOL It's nonsense to deny that. The lifespan of the A8 started earlier and ended earlier. In some case the C64 was able to "show" games "looking like" 16 bit, depending on the usable colour resolution, but all games (Supremacy, Turrican, Maniac Mansion, Pirates, ZakMcCracken, LN2, IK+, and Turrican 2) got lightyears better in graphics, sound and playability on the Amiga. But you don't even find games with the playbility of Rescue on Fractalus, Yoomp!, MULE, Drop Zone, Boulder Dash, The Eidolon on the Amiga.... Edited September 27, 2009 by emkay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 (edited) Don't talk such nonsense. LOL It's nonsense to deny that. The lifespan of the A8 started earlier and ended earlier. In some case the C64 was able to "show" games "looking like" 16 bit, depending on the usable colour resolution, but all games (Supremacy, Turrican, Maniac Mansion, Pirates, ZakMcCracken, LN2, IK+, and Turrican 2) got lightyears better in graphics, sound and playability on the Amiga. But you don't even find games with the playbility of Rescue on Fractalus, Yoomp!, MULE, Drop Zone, Boulder Dash, The Eidolon on the Amiga.... No, your statement as a whole is nonsense. There are plenty of great games on C64 that's WHY they were also on 16bit machines, if they were so "budget" or mediocre they wouldn't have made them again on the next generation. And you're saying that the reason the A8 is better is because the 16bits don't have those games? They were either so old that nobody knew what they were any more or so new (yoomp) that the Amiga is long dead. Get a life, the A8 isn't the be all and end all of computers. btw, nearly all the games you listed as being so good are also on C64, so what does that mean? C64 could handle A8s top games AND had all it's titles copied on 16bit. Pete Edited September 27, 2009 by PeteD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 No, your statement as a whole is nonsense. There are plenty of great games on C64 that's WHY they were also on 16bit machines, if they were so "budget" or mediocre they wouldn't have made them again on the next generation. And you're saying that the reason the A8 is better is because the 16bits don't have those games? They were either so old that nobody knew what they were any more or so new (yoomp) that the Amiga is long dead. Get a life, the A8 isn't the be all and end all of computers. You don't get it, do you? The games on the A8 didn't need the safety of superior machines. They were "selfrunners" and a peak of their time. Most "great" C64 titles came from a time, when other computers were far superior and coders got more advanced. Using the Sound and GFX on the C64 in a clever way, made them "remind" better than they were. They were just cheap.... and not as good as they could have been on other machines of their time full stop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 (edited) btw, nearly all the games you listed as being so good are also on C64, so what does that mean? C64 could handle A8s top games AND had all it's titles copied on 16bit. It's not what I have listed.... it's the top of lemon and atarimania......... And, no, Rescue on Fractalus, Yoomp!, MULE, Drop Zone, Boulder Dash, The Eidolon are inferior on the C64... particular RoF , and, well, you'll never find Yoomp! on the C64 as it was intended. Edited September 27, 2009 by emkay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 No, you don't get it. I will never deny that the A8 was earlier than the C64 and that it DID have some great games but to say A) the C64 was a budget machine and the only good games came when other machines were superior is nonsense, you're an A8 fan, you obviously don't know the c64 titles. B) to say at the time the c64 was "not as good as" other machines of the time is nonsense as well. Why the hell do you think it sold so well? If you say price, then I say that's why the Spectrum was more popular because it was cheaper, it's hardware and games weren't as good. CPC, please, it was always 3rd. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 (edited) btw, nearly all the games you listed as being so good are also on C64, so what does that mean? C64 could handle A8s top games AND had all it's titles copied on 16bit. It's not what I have listed.... it's the top of lemon and atarimania......... Don't start with atariksi semantics with me. YOU listed them, right there for the whole world to see, you didn't state "here is a list of top games I got from somewhere else". I'm replying to YOU not to someone earlier who came up with some games list from somewhere. Besides that where the list came from isn't the point, it's that you A8 zealots have your list of about 10 games that you regurgitate over and over and despite most people a8 or c64 admitting they're somewhat better on A8 you still have to try to shove them down peoples throats on every other post. All that does is make people think the A8 only had those games that were any good. *edit* Go on then, edit your post Who says MULE, Dropzone etc are better on A8? You talk about the whole importance of games is the gameplay, yet dropzone for one plays exactly the same, even Archer says the only difference is that you can have more "blobs" on screen which from playing both versions is just the number of explosion particles. That makes 0 difference to the gameplay. Pete Edited September 27, 2009 by PeteD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 No, you don't get it. I will never deny that the A8 was earlier than the C64 and that it DID have some great games but to say A) the C64 was a budget machine and the only good games came when other machines were superior is nonsense, you're an A8 fan, you obviously don't know the c64 titles. B) to say at the time the c64 was "not as good as" other machines of the time is nonsense as well. Why the hell do you think it sold so well? If you say price, then I say that's why the Spectrum was more popular because it was cheaper, it's hardware and games weren't as good. CPC, please, it was always 3rd. Pete Blablabla...... It's discussed several times before. C64 got a well start from Commodore. Later the cheap pricing and... the big piracy.... made it the biggest sell in the 80s. Big C did also well with 2 factors: the used colours and the sid sounds were like drugs to many people.... inspiring them to do "more"... believe it or not. And, well, I know games like Turrican (II) from C64 and I know that the Amiga version is better in all cases, except the hard triggered enemies , that were built into the C64 games to save CPU time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 YOU listed them, right there for the whole world to see, you didn't state "here is a list of top games I got from somewhere else". YAK..... it seems really useless to argue with you... POPMILO listed the top 10 of lemon and atarimania.... then I stated my thoughts about them... you lost focus on that and start a new trolling phase.... OK, til tomorrow I go puking..... good night Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 I love it, can't reply properly so out comes blablabla It's been "discussed" before, and that's YOUR side of the result of that "discussion" not mine I was a C64 coder, I know what it was capable of at the time, I also played those games in the 80s, also the spectrum versions because I had a spectrum. I also had an ST and Amiga and comparing games from an 8bit to a 16bit is kind of stupid especially when you consider some of you guys complain about comparing A8 vs C64 because C64 was later. At least A8/C64 was the same cpu, and slower on c64, or are you now going to change the last months arguments by most A8 fanatics that the C64 hardware wasn't superior? Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 (edited) YOU listed them, right there for the whole world to see, you didn't state "here is a list of top games I got from somewhere else". YAK..... it seems really useless to argue with you... POPMILO listed the top 10 of lemon and atarimania.... then I stated my thoughts about them... you lost focus on that and start a new trolling phase.... OK, til tomorrow I go puking..... good night Semantics again. Just have a stand up fight if you're going to argue. Prove YOUR point, don't try to put it on someone else. YOU stated the C64 was inferior to every other machine available at the same time and used a list of games to prove that point. And why is it you guys have to get so rude when you're losing? btw, it seems you also don't understand what trolling is. It's generally making an "out of the blue" comment designed to cause a reaction. Something along the lines of "C64 only was a budget machine with budget software, easily outdone by other machines of the same time". I simply got sucked in by your trollage Pete Edited September 27, 2009 by PeteD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchman Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 (edited) Yes that's the trouble with C64 software in UK. C64 seemed to live mainly on budget softs, and when a full price piece of software was re-relased on budget, it sold even better than the full price title. Just check out the soft charts in UK on C64 from that time, full of budget titles. But I blame the Spectrum for this, Spectrum was leading the market where sales were concerend, eg budget titles, and software houses had to do the same on C64. They had no choice. Edited September 27, 2009 by frenchman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 This is just for the record (although irrelevant to the point) so people can look it up themselves-- carcass is dead body of an animal. Although the most common definition, there are others; as in a human body, living or dead. Or, an unfinished framework of some type. Considering the fact that there are multiple valid definitions that can all be accurate depending on perspective, I really question whether or not is it irrelevant. ... I wasn't questioning his using carcass with the word sofa. Perhaps, you need to re-read that. I gave another more ghaslty (uglier) example of dead carcasses and that will also look more beautiful with more colors and shades (what to speak of carcass of a sofa). It's irrelevant which analogy you use since they both give more beautiful results with more colors and shades. So to try to keep repeating "you misread what I wrote" is avoiding the point. Perhaps its the most relevant part of the discussion. desiv There's no room for "Perhaps"; it's there in black and white if you care to spend the time to read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 I may need to place an order for these titles for C64 and A8 and test them out. You can get them at http://www.gamebase64.com/game.php?id=4293&d=18&h=0 and at http://www.gamebase64.com/game.php?id=6276&d=18&h=0 Well, I tried those links but the files extract to .T64 and I can't currently upload them in that state-- need to know starting address and file format (unless there's an easy way to transfer to a real disk). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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