atarian63 Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Yes... A8 was superior to apple 2, spectrum and such... From 1979 to 1983 until C64 appeared... Actually it took c64 which was release in 82 until aout 85 or so to really catch up. It really never did, just dev stopped on A8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 But it also shows the superiority of the A8, for it's lifespan.... Having something really superior available. While the C64 only was a budget machine with budget software, easily outdone by other machines of the same time. Yes... A8 was superior to apple 2, spectrum and such... From 1979 to 1983 until C64 appeared... It's nonsense to deny that. The lifespan of the A8 started earlier and ended earlier. In some case the C64 was able to "show" games "looking like" 16 bit, depending on the usable colour resolution, but all games (Supremacy, Turrican, Maniac Mansion, Pirates, ZakMcCracken, LN2, IK+, and Turrican 2) got lightyears better in graphics, sound and playability on the Amiga. Why wouldn't they get better on computer that is better in every way ? I admire C64 because someone thought its games were good enough to port to amiga. I admire C64 because it was possible to make ports of games from 16bits to it. There must be a reason why no one bothered to port ROF (don't get me wrong, I like that game, its great game for A8) Why didn't Lucasarts games division who loved atari so much, produced Maniac mansion and ZakMcCracken for A8 ? But you don't even find games with the playbility of Rescue on Fractalus, Yoomp!, MULE, Drop Zone, Boulder Dash, The Eidolon on the Amiga.... Pointless to comment claim like this, but I have to.... What have you been drinking ? Have you ever played games on Amiga ? Why would someone make game about flying around and rescuing people from barren planet when they could make much better games with whole living, moving worlds with tons of action and adventure ? Don't tell me rof is better than Midwinter, hunter, zeewolf,warhead,frontier, ashes of empire ... If you dont belive... try "Subtrade: Return to Irata" just to see how MULE can look like on Amiga... Julian Reschke, former CEO of Factor 5 (developer of Turrican series et al) wrote me once an email where he stated that he got the source code for RoFL and Ballblazer to port that somehow to Amiga. Only the Amiga version of Ballblazer was created (or was it PSX?). But he was binded to an NDA/Copyright so he could not release it to the public. He said... Lucasfilm (or Lucas Arts) would not be ammused if he would do it... It was the time around when F5 developed StarWars Games for the GameCube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 How many total man-hours do you think are invested in this thread? If you take into account the 9,000+ posts and the 150,000 views, you probably don't want to know. ..Al and could be put into creating something new... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 You can't see the self-contradictory remark of arguing in favor of color RAM and at the same time speaking against more colors and more shades and speculating they are subjective. Go try your bullcrap on someone else. I don't see what's so contradictory about saying that having the freedom to use more colours is useful when creating art, but that using more colours does not automatically ensure the creation of something beautiful. Whether something is beautiful or not will depend on HOW those colours are used, and even then, whether the result is classified at being beautiful or not will depend on the opinions/aesthetic preferences of the viewer. Because no matter how much you try to deny it, different people will have different ideas about what constitutes beauty. Considering the fact that there are multiple valid definitions that can all be accurate depending on perspective, I really question whether or not is it irrelevant. Everything irrelevant becomes relevant when trying to throw up a smokescreen while muddying the waters with cries of 'Chewbacca Defence!' and 'Bullcrap!' wow... spent whole weekend to create this art using more colors than A8 can offer per line... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnacle boy Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 (edited) Meanwhile, I made this somewhat ordinary-looking ship almost three times as beautiful! Objectively! Edited September 28, 2009 by Barnacle boy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 ... The original point was regarding seeing the fine scroll in those games. So emulator obviously can do fine scroll 1/2 color clock. I need to see it on the real thing to do the compare. Here are links for disk versions if that is easier: http://c64.hardwired.hu/games/l/lastv8.zip http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/download.php?id=53906 I think Vice does great job at emulating TV... There shouldn't be difference... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 ...As for Amiga it is essential the next gen ATARI so it should look good. Too bad they(commodore) cludged it up with that awful os and dull interlaced screen. Awful os ? One of the best Oses ever! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Here is the US there is only one reason the c64 ever sold at all. Price,Price and price. It was extremely poor workmanship.High failure rate,Ugly as sin and no software library.. the only thing to love was Price! Price is important factor... In any products success... I just somehow doubt that if A8s were cheaper they would sell well as C64... My C64 is 22 years old and it is still working... I have 10.000+ games for it... And I love its looks! Sometimes I try to put bread in it... but that is just early in the morning... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Let start with 1985, Atari ST, smash kill,dead c64. 1986-87 Amiga smash,kill c64, MAC Smash kill C64.. 1988 Pc Clones, Smash kill c64 with vga. In the states c64 was dead by late 87,early 88,done over finished. We used to have bargain bins full of c64 stuff and the local rep used to give us up to 70% off on c64 stuff,just to take most of it. Well isn't it ok that newer computers make old ones obsolete ? C64 was in production for 10 years ... I think good design made it possible for production price to go down... And with every year software library grew... It isn't best selling computer in the world for being inferior... In its time, in its price range it was superior... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Yes... A8 was superior to apple 2, spectrum and such... From 1979 to 1983 until C64 appeared... That's one point. The other point is that the C64 was a blender for many games... I admire C64 because someone thought its games were good enough to port to amiga. Which is not fully correct by this term. Many games were ported to the ST (for full prize) , because of the money issue. After that, the games got converted to the AMIGA. And, particular Turrican (2), was not a real conversion. The games were developed and released at the same time. So Turrican(2) is not a ST conversion. I admire C64 because it was possible to make ports of games from 16bits to it. And here's quite the difference again. Looking like, yes.... that's all. There must be a reason why no one bothered to port ROF (don't get me wrong, I like that game, its great game for A8) Good Question. Today "everyone" plays games, based on the "RoF" techs. Nearly no one cares about Sprite games. Why didn't Lucasarts games division who loved atari so much, produced Maniac mansion and ZakMcCracken for A8 ? Because they didn't see any money coming in. But you don't even find games with the playbility of Rescue on Fractalus, Yoomp!, MULE, Drop Zone, Boulder Dash, The Eidolon on the Amiga.... Pointless to comment claim like this, but I have to.... What have you been drinking ? Have you ever played games on Amiga ? I own a A2000 since 1989. Today it has a 512MB Harddisk.... Playing Monkey Island from HD is some special fun. Why would someone make game about flying around and rescuing people from barren planet when they could make much better games with whole living, moving worlds with tons of action and adventure ? Why were they playing PONG for years, spending endless coins for it? Because it's something new. Why does Turrican use the "bouncing ball" as a weapon type. Why do more and more games of today use even more physics? I tell you: It's a successive progression. Same with Koronis Rift. It's the Type of game that is played by millions of people today. -youhave nothing but a simple equipment -you find strong enemies -you go exploring some unkown -you find stuff to make things better -enemies get weaker, because you got stronger.... .... only just more complex.... in an Ego 3D view, colourful, good playing speed... Don't tell me rof is better than Midwinter, hunter, zeewolf,warhead,frontier, ashes of empire ... If you dont belive... try "Subtrade: Return to Irata" just to see how MULE can look like on Amiga... Technically it is. Belonging to the gameplay, well, the complexity could have been done with the successive progression, that was not done.... But, looking at midwinter.... contrary to the C64, the A8 could do games like this, also looking like 16 bit.... not only by the colours, also with the game speed, just the resolution is one step lower. And, well, Subtrade is not a MULE successor, it's some killer (in a negative way) ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Julian Reschke, former CEO of Factor 5 (developer of Turrican series et al) wrote me once an email where he stated that he got the source code for RoFL and Ballblazer to port that somehow to Amiga. Only the Amiga version of Ballblazer was created (or was it PSX?). But he was binded to an NDA/Copyright so he could not release it to the public. He said... Lucasfilm (or Lucas Arts) would not be ammused if he would do it... It was the time around when F5 developed StarWars Games for the GameCube. Copyright is a $$^%(*^&%$ sometimes... To bad... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 ...As for Amiga it is essential the next gen ATARI so it should look good. Too bad they(commodore) cludged it up with that awful os and dull interlaced screen. Awful os ? One of the best Oses ever! TOS was the awful OS. Not really able of being a full single tasked OS, it showed more system crashes (bombs) than the Amiga showed Gurus being a 16/32 bit multitasking OS. The AMIGA really had nothing bad of the C64. The bad parts went off with the Tramiels and you find them in the ST. The AMIGA had the good chipset, and the better OS. Just like the A8 in it's time of the first release. The only "bad" point was the lower CPU speed. But, what to say? The C64 and the ST have their cheapness in common. The fast development with available technics , hammered together in a small timespan. So the ST got the 8MHz and bad hardware, which is also some progressive step, thinking of the C64. A good chipset and a slow CPU makes the prizing useless for business use. So they made a turn over with a fast CPU and a cheap chipset, selling the ST to a good count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchman Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 (edited) Here is the US there is only one reason the c64 ever sold at all. Price,Price and price. It was extremely poor workmanship.High failure rate,Ugly as sin and no software library.. the only thing to love was Price! Price is important factor... In any products success... I just somehow doubt that if A8s were cheaper they would sell well as C64... My C64 is 22 years old and it is still working... I have 10.000+ games for it... And I love its looks! Sometimes I try to put bread in it... but that is just early in the morning... Price is most important, otherwise Apple 2, the 8-bit computer with most software, would have been the top selling computer way back (in USA). I once found this article here on AA, it's from some US magazine from the mid-80s about the Apple ][ and its importance/impact in schools/homes etc. Also a video was mentioned here once, 'Thriumphing Nerds' or such, were the story was told that Apple 2 created an industry/companies were formed and so forth. A bit like Sinclair in UK: Edited September 28, 2009 by frenchman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 I admire C64 because someone thought its games were good enough to port to amiga. Which is not fully correct by this term. Many games were ported to the ST (for full prize) , because of the money issue. After that, the games got converted to the AMIGA. And, particular Turrican (2), was not a real conversion. The games were developed and released at the same time. So Turrican(2) is not a ST conversion. Particular Turrican 1, game made for C64, using C64 strong points, good enough to be ported to Amiga, Atari ST, Amstrad, Spectrum, Sega Megadrive, TurboGrafx16,Gameboy, Gamegear .... And whole bunch of games for many systems sprung from that one original C64 game... There must be a reason why no one bothered to port ROF (don't get me wrong, I like that game, its great game for A8) Good Question. Today "everyone" plays games, based on the "RoF" techs. Nearly no one cares about Sprite games. I think I know what you are getting at, but its same logic as when someone fights over patent for something obvious... First person view... Dig deeper, you will find games before RoF that did that... Its like you would say: Archon was first board game ? Pong is not first one... people played with bat and ball long before Maybe you don't care about Sprite games ? I can tell you people around me play Zuma,Bejeweled,Hidden object search games and lot more... Guess what, they are sprite based... Look at the Iphone games... Why didn't Lucasarts games division who loved atari so much, produced Maniac mansion and ZakMcCracken for A8 ? Because they didn't see any money coming in. Why wasn't money coming in ? I own a A2000 since 1989. Today it has a 512MB Harddisk.... Playing Monkey Island from HD is some special fun. Monkey Island, 3d game ... Uh wait.. No! Sprite based game I own A1200 with 2Gb compact flash based drive... Playing ProjectX and Superstardust on projector You said you don't find games with the playability of Atari games.... Are you sure you played enough Amiga games... Maybe you missed some good games... ...I tell you: It's a successive progression. Yes, fractal 3d landscapes and fast animation were good invention by Lucasarts... they used it in 3-4 games... Problem is that because of lack of sprites they couldn't put more objects on screen so they probabbly ran out of ideas for new games... Not much diversity in flying or walking around landscape... Eidolon was just turned upside down... World of Warcraft would look really odd in RoF type of graphic... I bet it would be less fun then RoF... ...But, looking at midwinter.... contrary to the C64, the A8 could do games like this, also looking like 16 bit.... not only by the colours, also with the game speed, just the resolution is one step lower. One step lower ? maybe 4 times less resolution? Or 2times less resolution with 4 colors... But yes probably doable ... Almost any 3d game can be made better for A8 than for c64. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 How many total man-hours do you think are invested in this thread? Dunno, but it's easy to see who invested the most (just click on the # of replies in the topic list) Who posted in: Atari v Commodore Member name Posts atariksi 1520 emkay 621 Oswald 404 Heaven/TQA 382 Wolfram 369 Bryan 357 Fröhn 354 TMR 344 atarian63 307 Crazyace 272 potatohead 260 PeteD 256 Rybags 238 oky2000 226 Allas 184 andym00 183 popmilo 168 frenchman 133 Tezz 129 Rockford 123 wood_jl 122 Barnacle boy 103 It doesn't follow that more posts means more time invested. Oswald looks like is in the top 10 although he's been gone a long time. I type fast plus I don't think it's waste of time if I get to deal with unbiased technical arguments. Posting images/code usually takes more time than composing this reply for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 (edited) Meanwhile, I made this somewhat ordinary-looking ship almost three times as beautiful! Objectively! And this is just plain ugly.. Objectively Ow me eyes!! Edited September 28, 2009 by andym00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 You can't see the self-contradictory remark of arguing in favor of color RAM and at the same time speaking against more colors and more shades and speculating they are subjective. Go try your bullcrap on someone else. I don't see what's so contradictory about saying that having the freedom to use more colours is useful when creating art, but that using more colours does not automatically ensure the creation of something beautiful. Whether something is beautiful or not will depend on HOW those colours are used, and even then, whether the result is classified at being beautiful or not will depend on the opinions/aesthetic preferences of the viewer. Because no matter how much you try to deny it, different people will have different ideas about what constitutes beauty. Considering the fact that there are multiple valid definitions that can all be accurate depending on perspective, I really question whether or not is it irrelevant. Everything irrelevant becomes relevant when trying to throw up a smokescreen while muddying the waters with cries of 'Chewbacca Defence!' and 'Bullcrap!' wow... spent whole weekend to create this art using more colors than A8 can offer per line... You can't falsely blame someone for "smokescreen", distorting things, etc. and yet have a constructive conversation. Even if you don't see where he was doing Chewbacca defense, at least you can see that he was also declaring my stuff Chewbacca Defense and that I was misreading his stuff rather than answering the point. He explicitly stated that color ram was for positioning of colors since he doesn't agree that having more colors and shades makes things more beautiful. Obviously, you didn't see that actually he was self-contradicting since color RAM is for getting more colors. Anyway, I did give example of traffic light to answer your claim that someone can screw up despite it being objectively better to have one than not to have one. I guess one example, you can easily understand is that 16 bit sound cards produce more beautiful sampled sound than 4-bit sound cards. But you can of course, take a 16-bit sample and put random noise samples in it and make it sound worse than the same sound as 4-bit sample. It doesn't refute the statement that 16-bit sound cards produce more beautiful sound than 4-bit sound cards. Nothing subjective about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Particular Turrican 1, game made for C64, using C64 strong points, good enough to be ported to Amiga, Atari ST, Amstrad, Spectrum, Sega Megadrive, TurboGrafx16,Gameboy, Gamegear .... No. Turrican was developed at the same time on the C64 and the Amiga. First person view... Dig deeper, you will find games before RoF that did that... 1962.... Spare War But that still wasn't the point. We were talking about the "best" games by votes of the users. Maybe you don't care about Sprite games ? I can tell you people around me play Zuma,Bejeweled,Hidden object search games and lot more... Guess what, they are sprite based... Look at the Iphone games... I care about "sprite games" some logical puzzles do well on Cellphones... And please don't mention that applecrap... Why wasn't money coming in ? Bad support from ATARI, as described a gazillion times in this tread. You cannot buy stuff if you a) don't know about the available hardware b) cannot buy stuff of the store at your near location. I own a A2000 since 1989. Today it has a 512MB Harddisk.... Playing Monkey Island from HD is some special fun. Monkey Island, 3d game ... Uh wait.. No! Sprite based game Not really Sprite based. Bitmap based with moving objects fits better. Well, even Turrican was great. And btw. the greatest Mix of 2D / 3D view I played on the SNES "Axelay". I own A1200 with 2Gb compact flash based drive... Playing ProjectX and Superstardust on projector You said you don't find games with the playability of Atari games.... Are you sure you played enough Amiga games... Maybe you missed some good games... You seem always to use computers of the 2nd and 3rd degree, don't you? The A1200 was not the top of the notch when it arrived. It was already cheaped down to compete with the PC.... And much incompatible changes happened from the OCS/ECS machines..... So it was not a real AMIGA anymore. IDE-Interface..... yuk... World of Warcraft would look really odd in RoF type of graphic... I bet it would be less fun then RoF... WoW uses 1996 graphics techs. Today the games get more into voxel space again, and Raytracing will come in the near future and calculated textures come their way. It seems that the old RoF tech comes back. Just much more complex... ...But, looking at midwinter.... contrary to the C64, the A8 could do games like this, also looking like 16 bit.... not only by the colours, also with the game speed, just the resolution is one step lower. One step lower ? maybe 4 times less resolution? Hm.... it will be faster on the A8 than the ECS AMIGA then... Or 2times less resolution with 4 colors... But yes probably doable ... Almost any 3d game can be made better for A8 than for c64. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 No. Turrican was developed at the same time on the C64 and the Amiga. Turrican was developed on the C64 first and then converted to the Amiga and whilst they were written simultaneously (which in itself demonstrates a commitment to the C64 over some of the 16-bit platforms), designer Manfred Trenz has said that the C64 version of Turrican 2 was the original design. First person view... Dig deeper, you will find games before RoF that did that... 1962.... Spare War Erm, Spacewar! isn't first person at all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Dunno, but it's easy to see who invested the most Here's a proper link: http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?app=forums&module=extras§ion=stats&do=who&t=134852 Actually... 344 posts in a 350 plus page thread is less than a post a page - i can live with that! =-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Sorry Pete... You'll never sell me on C64. Not then,not today,not ever. Never was/is/will be my intention to get anyone to be "sold" on C64. I could care less what you think of it just as you could care less what I think of A8. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 I love it, can't reply properly so out comes blablabla It's been "discussed" before, and that's YOUR side of the result of that "discussion" not mine I was a C64 coder, I know what it was capable of at the time, I also played those games in the 80s, also the spectrum versions because I had a spectrum. I also had an ST and Amiga and comparing games from an 8bit to a 16bit is kind of stupid especially when you consider some of you guys complain about comparing A8 vs C64 because C64 was later. At least A8/C64 was the same cpu, and slower on c64, or are you now going to change the last months arguments by most A8 fanatics that the C64 hardware wasn't superior? Pete Never thought it was superior, I only hear that from the c64 guys. And I never said you did. Read the post again, the sentence is "At least A8/C64 was the same cpu, and slower on c64, or are you now going to change the last months arguments by most A8 fanatics that the C64 hardware wasn't superior?", wasn't, as in the A8 guys have spent the whole thread arguing the C64 WASN'T superior. If I didn't mean that why would I say it's the A8 fanatics making that claim? Fair enough if you misread the meaning but I can't see how. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchman Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Space War was not 'first person', but Star Raiders (1979 cartridge A8) certainly was, and it was the first 'killer app' were gaming was concerned. But the first 'first person' was some tunnel game on Pet in 1977 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 (edited) But that still wasn't the point. We were talking about the "best" games by votes of the users. My point still stands... There are more games on top of C64 list that can not be ported to A8 and be better than original, than opposite.. You seem always to use computers of the 2nd and 3rd degree, don't you? The A1200 was not the top of the notch when it arrived. It was already cheaped down to compete with the PC.... And much incompatible changes happened from the OCS/ECS machines..... So it was not a real AMIGA anymore. IDE-Interface..... yuk... I don't know much about incompatibility... I guess I didn't notice it... Yes, there were problems with Kickstart versions, and some games needed chip and some needed fast memory... Its all easily solvable... I bought it in 1992 from my own money when it came out and I'm using it for last 17 years... Wouldn't call it 2nd or 3rd degree... Bigger palette... more resolutions... more speed... Edited September 28, 2009 by popmilo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Space War was not 'first person', but Star Raiders (1979 cartridge A8) certainly was, and it was the first 'killer app' were gaming was concerned. But the first 'first person' was some tunnel game on Pet in 1977 Not much of a killer app given Atari waited until '82 to stick it on the VCS and 5200.. I guess they'd run out of other better options by then to raise some cash And as for first first person games, go look up Spasim from 1974.. That'll be your first first person game I reckon, and it's a shooter as well as networked multiplayer as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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