atarian63 Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 My favourite Frogger game on the C64 is this little beauty from 1984. Called 3D Jumping jack. Gamebase64 link I think if someone did it for the A8 it would be a great addition to a classic game...with some pseudo 3D. Most of the colour changes are on horizontal lines too even though it is isometric 3D I like it too. Might be a fun one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 My favourite Frogger game on the C64 is this little beauty from 1984. Called 3D Jumping jack. Gamebase64 link I think if someone did it for the A8 it would be a great addition to a classic game...with some pseudo 3D. Most of the colour changes are on horizontal lines too even though it is isometric 3D I like it too. Might be a fun one! Maybe this one computes the graphics in 1/60 (or 1/50) second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 ...At the moment, it's been nicknamed War over Atariksia (at least that's what i have in the filenames and the header of the source file) with the planet in the title being the one with far too much colour about the place... i had a sort of back story that revolved around the garish nature of the place being used as an offensive weapon to enslave other races and the lone pilot thrown into battle being unable to see colour or something. And on other days, i've even been known to do "subtle". =-) Love the idea ! I thought about something in that spirit too (stick to the topic of A vs B but in a constructive way) C64 turrican player put in a Boss fight with Big GTIA Atari beast! I would put an enemy from some atari game but couldn't find good one, so I put something from Amiga version ... p.s. I must admit after few tries, it's dificcult to make something hand drawn that is nice in 4x1 pixel size... When you become conditioned to the diseased state of 40*25 color RAMs on 8*8 or 4*8 grids, it's hard to adopt to better graphics modes like GTIA. But what the heck, flicker didn't seem to make any difference on Gyruss for C64 fans so just interlace two graphics modes and get higher resolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 The only problem is once again (as usual) the C64 version is coded by some retard at Atarisoft and is worse than the VIC-20 version. Yep, That is the problem often times with these comparisons.. both directions. It's possible in cases like those to be horribly cynical and ponder if Atarisoft didn't try to "sabotage" the C64 version since the machine was competing with the A8... not that i believe they did personally, but i've never understood why the C64 version of Moon Patrol didn't have the same backgrounds as the A8 version. [Evil grin... =-] This speculative conspiracy theory has been stated multiple times now on this thread-- everytime without any evidence. It's like saying "the moon is made of cheddar cheese, but they just didn't tell anyone yet." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Actually Emkay has that honour I believe, since according to his royal highness lower resolution is better from a gameplay and graphics point of view, and therefore the A8 version is better than the arcade.. Ah! I guess you start to learn ... Ofcourse, framerate and -all in all fitting- presentations on the screen got to be the first point where a game should be built on. If the hardware can do better, you just have to do "all better" to keep the content fitting together.... But in this case the C64 has a clubfoot. It is simply not possible to have a game running fully in 320x200. One problem you find in the colour resolution handling, one problem you find in the "limited" sprites, and the biggest problem you find in the retarded CPU. As I stated several times before. Games like Turrican and Katakis were cleverly done to fit to the C64 hardware. Most elements do not rotate, so the aspect ratio of 2/1 fits and can enhance the visuals there. Rotating elements look better if they look same when shown same with a 90° rotation. So the developers have to use a shape that uses doubled pixels vertically .... (if only this was something new yet) Or, in "modern" words: People playing games like Counterstrike CoD / Crysis or else, reduce the graphics until the framerate gets absolutely stable and the reaction of the game gets as immediate as possible. So they rule over all nerds that run their game in the highest resolution , just by the fact that they get slowdowns due to the used system and CPU that cannot handle all needed data fast enough when the action is going tough.... BTW: I don't feel insulted when you call me "royal highness" .... keep going .... When C64 can't cope with the frame rate, they want to look at other aspects. Sorry, guys can't brush it under the rug-- let's be consistent. A8 can do a lot more sprites if you allow for flicker, it can do a lot more colors, color depth, etc. And the certain modes have much less flicker than skipping frames. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Here is a very nice one on Atari, Youtube is very washed out, the real thing is much more colorful! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkj71R16kVQ&feature=related Alley Cat ahhhh happy memories. My friend who had an Atari 800 used to load up this game for me (and Rally Speedway and Last Starfighter). It's a fun game to play another Synapse master piece... best are the sound fx which are all generated by software without any samples... f.e. how the hell are you doing the wow wow sounds of dog? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 When you become conditioned to the diseased state of 40*25 color RAMs on 8*8 or 4*8 grids, it's hard to adopt to better graphics modes like GTIA. But what the heck, flicker didn't seem to make any difference on Gyruss for C64 fans so just interlace two graphics modes and get higher resolution. The trick is to use flicker or interlace only with moving objects. Never let the interlaced object stand still on the screen. And everything will be fine. Sometimes an idea of a game for "best A8 hardware usage" comes to my mind. I'm thinking about a game that splits by software and using the vcounter the PMs... so it gets independent from any DLI. The background could be done with all DLI techs that were possible and needed. Scrolling is done with the LMS feature on charmode. Now the DLI comes into play.... fixed positions on the screen with indexed commands. The relative position of the protagonist controls the index. A bit of it, you find in Alley cat, where he jumps on the hearts and the brightness moves with the cat. But we could go a bit further. Using GTIA (10) mode then, or stand on the 5 colour mode, we could build some kind of a vertical 3D rolling horizontal scroller, a) by switching between some charsets, b) by using all possible steps of brightness. The enemys still could do some "Mirax Force" attacks, but depending on the splitting routine, they can also move up and down and change their brightness, depending on the relative position .... Adding some interlaced objects to the background should be no problem. At the end it may look like a 3D Drop Zone with a full scrolling backdrop. Only the brightness values have to be independent between the moving objects and the background, to fulfill the 3D effect. I'd bet this works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 That shows the real advantage of the C64 - the sprites. 7 characters on screen using 3 colour sprites ( plus one for the ball ) vs 4 characters using single character players. nope, just a poor programming job on atari. But it's not exactly a work of genius on the C64 either, the hardware just has more resources to throw at things in this kind of situation; as Crazyace says, seven footie players in three colours versus four in just one colour and the C64 display code is almost sitting idle in comparision already (movement and animation of sprites takes a fraction of the processing grind) so anything done to enhance things at the A8 end will take even more CPU power away from the game running underneath them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gury Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 another Synapse master piece... best are the sound fx which are all generated by software without any samples... f.e. how the hell are you doing the wow wow sounds of dog? Yeah, Alley Cat is excellent game on Atari. I used to play it on first IBM PC machines, but I was very happy to see it on Atari. Good graphics, very playable game with lots of animation and different rooms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 At the end it may look like a 3D Drop Zone with a full scrolling backdrop. Only the brightness values have to be independent between the moving objects and the background, to fulfill the 3D effect. I'd bet this works. Hmm... good luck on that, when can we expect to see some prototype code? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atarigmr Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Here is a very nice one on Atari, Youtube is very washed out, the real thing is much more colorful! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkj71R16kVQ&feature=related I think you mean the colors are brighter not more colorful... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 When you become conditioned to the diseased state of 40*25 color RAMs on 8*8 or 4*8 grids, it's hard to adopt to better graphics modes like GTIA. But what the heck, flicker didn't seem to make any difference on Gyruss for C64 fans so just interlace two graphics modes and get higher resolution. Im not complaining about number of colors, what does color grid has to do with resolution ... I can show you hundreds of good looking game backgrounds made in c64s "diseased" graphic modes.. Can you show me just few examples of game backgrounds or game characters (main player or enemies) done in GTIA mode or in one of RIP TIP or whatever the names are for those "resolution enhanced" modes... ? And is there an editor that works in GTIA mode or one of mixed modes ? I'm not saying it isn't possible, I just think its difficult to begin when you have nothing to compare it to... and without tools... I'll have to make my own editor if nothing else surfaces.... Once again "Samobojcy" is good example for background graphic done in 16 shades of grey... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Can you show me just few examples of game backgrounds or game characters (main player or enemies) done in GTIA mode or in one of RIP TIP or whatever the names are for those "resolution enhanced" modes... ? And is there an editor that works in GTIA mode or one of mixed modes ? i had to write my own APAC converter because i couldn't find one...! i have a mostly functioning puzzle game working in APAC but, considering how hard it hammers the machine to display, i'd think more than twice about trying to run anything action-based in that mode. I'm not saying it isn't possible, I just think its difficult to begin when you have nothing to compare it to... and without tools... I'll have to make my own editor if nothing else surfaces.... i've tried to draw stuff in the bitmap editor i usually use for other modes, i'm used to working at 1:1 and "thinking" at 2:1 because i've been doing it for several years now (the prototyping for the majority of my 8-bit graphics are done that way) but going to 4:1... it's nowhere near as easy to keep straight in your head! Once again "Samobojcy" is good example for background graphic done in 16 shades of grey... Probably the best of it's kind in fact, but it proves our point about working in that pixel ratio rather neatly too; it's drawing on every other scanline and essentially "forcing" a 2:1 pixel ratio rather than 4:1 and that's significently easier to work with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 And right at this moment Rocky Mountains has become the authority on cabs, actually lecturing owners of arcade machines. He obviously googled. Just give up on this guy. Arguing with him doesn't have any effect. I'd call this the "Oswald" effect. So, I'd like to propose everyone to stop replying to Rockford. It'll stop, as he is only here for malicious delight, nothing else. Did you ever see him posting in another topic, or even reading one? Did you ever hear someting sensible from him? Just to all: Ignore him! Shouldn't be too hard. First you wanted to ban me, then you begged, asking if anybody knew any games that looked better on A8 and now you are crying "ignore him". You are such a brave atarian, so, why don't you stop dawdling. It's so pathetic ! Yeah.... As said before, to me it's no problem if you just show the C64 pictures which are better. I can live with that. However, this thread was meant to DISCUSS the difference between A8 / C64 versions of a game, but it seems TROLLING is all you can do. I already feel compassion for you (see post 8043) if your life is boring enough to subscribe here and post (now) over 5 trolling messages every day, but I even feel more compassion for you if you don't see the difference between discussing and trolling . So, let anyone decide for himself here who of us two is pathetic And, all I do is warn others not to walk in this 'Rockford' trap. And it's no command to anyone. Anyone should decide by himself if he'd go on replying on your trolling, but maybe these are trolls also. About 'begging': I never begged for anything here, certainly not for "games that looked better on A8". That's another way to recognize a troll: Just throw around arguments, who cares if the arguments are true? And, another thing. I changed my mind. You shouldn't be banned, as otherwise you wouldn't have anything to do with your life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Philsan Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 (edited) 30 - KENNY DALGLISH SOCCER MANAGER This posts reminds me that Atari doesn't have good soccer and tennis games (compared to C64). Perhaps a soccer game is difficult to program without many hardware sprites but I think a good tennis game could be easily done. Edited October 1, 2009 by Philsan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Tennis should be pretty simple. I suppose you could still get overlapping players if they both stood right at the net but you could get around that quite easily. The PRIOR stuff is ideal to have one player behind the net. I was working on Great Courts on C64 before I quit my job at that company. Ste (STE 86 on here) did the graphics for it, doubt he's still got any of them though. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazyace Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 I really liked Atari Tennis at the time - very simple graphics, but good fun to play Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STE'86 Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Tennis should be pretty simple. I suppose you could still get overlapping players if they both stood right at the net but you could get around that quite easily. The PRIOR stuff is ideal to have one player behind the net. I was working on Great Courts on C64 before I quit my job at that company. Ste (STE 86 on here) did the graphics for it, doubt he's still got any of them though. Pete Guess again. i have the sprites as PCX format double pixel jobs from the amstrad/c64 version. 3 colour sprites. white, brown and flesh. cant remember if i have the court tho. i will check when i get home from work. should be no real problem to snapshot the 64 version with the players in flat colour areas tho. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 lol you're as bad as my aunty who never got rid of anything Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Finally a game with a colour the Atari excels at I'll be expecting some stunningly shaded grass utilising the full palette of green, maybe even some GTIA shenanigans to add some extra shades of green to the proceeedings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Don't forget clay courts!! allllll those browns! it'll just eat 'em up. lol Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Can you end the offtopic please? It's about "Atari vs. Commodore" and not about "C64 nerds know each other". Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 It's also not called Atari wankers spout bullshit, so keep quiet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STE'86 Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Can you end the offtopic please? It's about "Atari vs. Commodore" and not about "C64 nerds know each other". Thanks. hmm well heres me thinking we are discussing readily available graphics which some decent coder could turn into a viable atari great courts conversion. obviously not u tho as u are too busy prototyping a viable 3d dropzone. let us know when thats ready. should be really good if u can code half as well as u talk about coding. Steve 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 (edited) Can you end the offtopic please? It's about "Atari vs. Commodore" and not about "C64 nerds know each other". Thanks. hmm well heres me thinking we are discussing readily available graphics which some decent coder could turn into a viable atari great courts conversion. obviously not u tho as u are too busy prototyping a viable 3d dropzone. let us know when thats ready. should be really good if u can code half as well as u talk about coding. Steve Emkay doesn't see that though because he's blinded by his need to try to prove anyone he calls a "C64 nerd" wrong, or just to annoy any C64 user enough that they'll just leave. Either that or he's just trolling again. Certainly worked on me if it was a troll. so for that one. Pete Edited October 1, 2009 by PeteD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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