Irgendwer Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 I'd rather play something fun like Skyfox Hmm, Skyfox has '7.8' and F15 '8', so it seems people like F-15 even it is slow on the C64 a little bit more... In former times I played F-15 quite a lot on the A8 and liked it very much - like 'Strike Eagle II' on the ST. I was in GB for holidays and bought it in a 'Bookshop' (WHSmith) in Porthmouth or Southampton. Compared to D, the situation for buying games in GB was a dream - you were able to buy A8 games (even it was mostly Mastertronic) also in a Woolworth. But I'm getting off-topic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 ...But I'm getting off-topic... WTF....Nooooo!...please don't go off-topic :ponder: ....that wouldn't be good for this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 A game called Timeslip Don't know much about it but sure looks colorful Timeslip isn't on the C64 so a comparision can't be made, but there's a C16 (not a typo, it runs from roughly 12K of availalbe RAM) version which is actually a bit more colourful than the A8 one overall (no background splits on the upper or lower thirds of the play area, but it does have some colour RAM use in the middle are for those blobs near the left edge). Squint at some of the details and there are graphics running in high resolution as well, the C16 can select multicolour from it's colour RAM in a similar way to the C64. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 When you become conditioned to the diseased state of 40*25 color RAMs on 8*8 or 4*8 grids, it's hard to adopt to better graphics modes like GTIA. But what the heck, flicker didn't seem to make any difference on Gyruss for C64 fans so just interlace two graphics modes and get higher resolution. Im not complaining about number of colors, what does color grid has to do with resolution ... I can show you hundreds of good looking game backgrounds made in c64s "diseased" graphic modes.. Can you show me just few examples of game backgrounds or game characters (main player or enemies) done in GTIA mode or in one of RIP TIP or whatever the names are for those "resolution enhanced" modes... ? And is there an editor that works in GTIA mode or one of mixed modes ? I'm not saying it isn't possible, I just think its difficult to begin when you have nothing to compare it to... and without tools... I'll have to make my own editor if nothing else surfaces.... Once again "Samobojcy" is good example for background graphic done in 16 shades of grey... Never heard of samobojcy, but there aren't many games in GTIA modes. If people spent even half the time thinking about making GTIA-based backgrounds (vs. C64 color-ram based backgrounds), I'm sure they can get very good results. I certainly got very good results using GTIA modes but I wasn't doing games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Each machine has their advantages. No point mentioning which machine is better and comparing game versions. Just because one version of a game is worse it mainly only falls down to the programmer not utilising the machine properly to its advantage. Advantage that C64 has ofcourse is that programmers have learnt to exploit and expand its capability in comparison with the Atari machines. I believe the Atari has potential. Not taking any sides here, I know the c64's features and limitations and i am sure the Atari has things to offer as well but not known for the time being. Even though c64's palette is limited to 16 colors, I have yet to find one of the finest atari pictures that looks as good or better than the c64 offering. MUSC, NUFLI etc As far as pictures go, you haven't seen many pictures then on A8. Some were posted in this thread and as far as software driven modes go, any images rendered with many shades will tend to look better on A8 even at half horizontal resolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Also there is no double cpu time cost because of changing screens... But there is some (significant part of) CPU lost for changing GPRIOR register every scanline. The GTIA mode lines are interleaved with normal graphics. Thus we need LDA #$00 STA GPRIOR ... LDA #$40 STA GPRIOR ...(cycle back) every 2 scanlines. When using a kernel it will take many cpu time. Using DLI a lot less. Using Timer IRQ again somewhat less, but still a significant amount. Also notice that PMs are used to overlay the gfx lines inbetween the sprite lines. But, in case of doing this all with real software sprites, cpu usage will be far worse. Yes... There is that cpu cost... But at least you have to update only every second line of background... And its only 32 bytes wide GTIA screen with 96=192/2 lines (96*32=3072 bytes...) Not much to get 16 shaded scrolling background... Two interleaving full size screens would need 4 times that... 12k-16k of bytes... But, maybe... if Amstrad could manipulate 16k graphic memory... maybe A8 could too ? Sprite layer is made from 4 color graphic mode with software sprites + PM black graphic for giving black edge to ships...(you can see those 2x1 black pixels on the separated background picture). They used EOR for erasing sprites ... But PMs are also the reason why the game is in BW... Color of PMs would mix with color registers of gtia and would make strange effects ... The case of this partly done game does not apply in general. You don't have to toggle modes every line or skip lines. Just simple buffer swaps during VBI gives pretty good results and requires very little CPU time. In fact, you can build some pretty good images with little or zero flicker (if you plan it out by hand); if it's just a general algorithm (automated), it may give some flicker. I wrote this before, but here it is again (for shaded imagery): Original image: 5-bit depth (P=0..31), XRes: 160+ pixels, YRes: whatever Graphics 10 buffer: P(Gr10)=P>>2 Graphics 9 buffer: P-(P(Gr10)<<1)-2 Clip P(Gr9) so zero is minimum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atarian63 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 (edited) Mr Do! Atari 800, very nice,smooth,detailed char. Very close to the arcade.I own this arcade machine for comparison. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt8GBlgjMaU&feature=related C64 version has the sound all wrong, poorly done enemies,dull title screen Atari version is much closer. A nice conversion! Oh I certainly agree with the official Mr Do being well below the C64's capabilities....but luckily there are at least 2 other unofficial versions of this game done without a licence which are quite nice to play . And finally I've got a copy of how to insert youtube videos into the actual thread hooray! Yeah, the insert video thing is quite nice. Edited October 2, 2009 by atarian63 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANTIQ Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Can you show me just few examples of game backgrounds or game characters (main player or enemies) done in GTIA mode or in one of RIP TIP or whatever the names are for those "resolution enhanced" modes... ? And is there an editor that works in GTIA mode or one of mixed modes ? Koronis Rift: Project "M" i had to write my own APAC converter because i couldn't find one...! i have a mostly functioning puzzle game working in APAC but, considering how hard it hammers the machine to display, i'd think more than twice about trying to run anything action-based in that mode. There are several native editors but I don't know if there are any good ones! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 (edited) As far as pictures go, you haven't seen many pictures then on A8. Some were posted in this thread and as far as software driven modes go, any images rendered with many shades will tend to look better on A8 even at half horizontal resolution. Well I have, and most (when not 64 knockoffs) the vast majority are bland and fairly boring, and do no favours for the world of Atari graphics.. But I'm glad that you're happy to settle for 80 pixel horizontal resolution as being okay, because I just think that's a fairly poor show and that people settle for it because it's nice and easy to do, rather than actually put some effort into really using the stuff you've got to push the quality of the pictures.. I mean really, c'mon.. If you're happy with Mechanical TV resolutions then fine, Shelford Bidwell would a proud man.. Edited October 2, 2009 by andym00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oky2000 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 I'd rather play something fun like Skyfox Hmm, Skyfox has '7.8' and F15 '8', so it seems people like F-15 even it is slow on the C64 a little bit more... In former times I played F-15 quite a lot on the A8 and liked it very much - like 'Strike Eagle II' on the ST. I was in GB for holidays and bought it in a 'Bookshop' (WHSmith) in Porthmouth or Southampton. Compared to D, the situation for buying games in GB was a dream - you were able to buy A8 games (even it was mostly Mastertronic) also in a Woolworth. But I'm getting off-topic... I'm not interested in what 20-40 people vote on at lemon64 or wherever when there are millions of people on the internet. Skyfox is fun and looks more impressive to me and that's all that counts for my £9.99 I bet you will find Skyfox outsold F15 by a huge margin, now that's what I call an endorsement Actually I am really surprised it is not on A8...American software house....even Apple II got a version...so why no A8 version even for $40 etc? Honestly it was one of the first games I got that made me sit up and think "wow" when I first played it....probably the best Ariolasoft release on the 64. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 If you're happy with Mechanical TV resolutions then fine, Shelford Bidwell would a proud man.. I quess he was more about this type of screen: Real 256 colours.... just not supported mode by software... yawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 That's still nothing like the quality of the C64 pic posted, doesn't have 256 colours more like 48 maybe? they're in "blocks" of 16 shades, yawwwwwwwn.. Why don't you just admit the shortcomings of the A8 instead of trying to pass off worse quality stuff than the C64 can do? It won't make angels die or anything if you admit once the A8 isn't as good at something. Any "C64 user" who isn't here just to wind you up will admit it has some points better than the C64 (for example the C64 is of course limited to it's 16 colour palette), but this really isn't one of them. Show me a picture in 256 colour that isn't 80x96 or made out of big blocks of PMG with parts of the picture the wrong colour and I'll be the first to say amazing! Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 As far as pictures go, you haven't seen many pictures then on A8. Some were posted in this thread and as far as software driven modes go, any images rendered with many shades will tend to look better on A8 even at half horizontal resolution. Well I have, and most (when not 64 knockoffs) the vast majority are bland and fairly boring, and do no favours for the world of Atari graphics.. But I'm glad that you're happy to settle for 80 pixel horizontal resolution as being okay, because I just think that's a fairly poor show and that people settle for it because it's nice and easy to do, rather than actually put some effort into really using the stuff you've got to push the quality of the pictures.. I mean really, c'mon.. If you're happy with Mechanical TV resolutions then fine, Shelford Bidwell would a proud man.. Yeah, but the c64 pic is WITH interlace/flicker, and the a8 pic is WITHOUT interlace! And I suppose for the c64 pic you need a (heavy) software gfx mode or some sprite overlays. So, this is comparing pictures from different categories. If we permit A8 interlace pictures with alternate GPRIOR $40 / $80 scanlines, then we still have 256 colours in 176*239 resolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 (edited) Just out of interest how would you get 176*239 256 colours? I know APAC 80x96 (or a bit bigger in X and Y if u want), so you need to have 2 of those to get the 239? one offset a line from the other? Then similar for the X res? so you need 4 bitmaps for it? I think the fairest comparision of picture modes is what the stock machine can do without any "extras" so c64 bitmap, A8 pick a mode + PMG ORing. No "raster" changes, so no colour changes, PMG position/size shifts etc. Plain old run a program, it displays a picture that the CPU has nothing to do with. Pete Edited October 2, 2009 by PeteD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 (edited) Just out of interest how would you get 176*239 256 colours? I know APAC 80x96 (or a bit bigger in X and Y if u want), so you need to have 2 of those to get the 239? one offset a line from the other? Then similar for the X res? so you need 4 bitmaps for it? Not sure you can offset APAC vertically by a pixel, doesn't it send the colour generation for a loop under those circumstances? (Just checked under emulation, A800Win says it can but there's some very odd flickers similar to that GTIA/CTIA mixed mode game we were looking at earlier that i'd put down to the game's refresh cycle... in other words, if this is how it looks on the real deal s'not perfect.) i think it's possible to use a CTIA bitmap mode to generate the luminances and GTIA for the colours to give 160x96 (or whatever it's overscanned up to) because i've done tests of that and, assuming the emulator isn't lying to me, it's not too bad either; of course, that's essentially simulating attribute cells so atariksi will be furious when he finds out! =-) Edited October 2, 2009 by TMR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 I think the fairest comparision of picture modes is what the stock machine can do without any "extras" so c64 bitmap, A8 pick a mode + PMG ORing. No "raster" changes, so no colour changes, PMG position/size shifts etc. Plain old run a program, it displays a picture that the CPU has nothing to do with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 What mode was that lizard pic in? It looks a bit MUCSU to me, in which case its no flicker and barely any cpu (just change sprite defs every so often down the screen). Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Just out of interest how would you get 176*239 256 colours? I know APAC 80x96 (or a bit bigger in X and Y if u want), so you need to have 2 of those to get the 239? one offset a line from the other? Then similar for the X res? so you need 4 bitmaps for it? APAC is a mixture of GPRIOR $40 and $c0. The horizontal offset of both types of scanline is the same, so effectively (without interlace, flicker) it's 80x*96y*256c (only PAL blending used). The $40 / $80 mixture has different horizontal offsets: The $80 mode uses the full 9 palette registers. The $40 mode doesn't use the palette registers but a fixed palette of 16 luma, so it starts 1/2 pixel earlier (i.e. to the left). With PAL blending and without interlace/flicker we have 9*16=144 colours and we already have somewhat more freedom than 80x. But when interlace/flicker is used, we can do $40,$80,$40,$80,...on even frames, and $80,$40,$80,$40,...on odd frames. Mixing this all up will give 160*192*144 or in widescreen & all scanlines: 176x*239y*144c. Only contrast is a problem, but we can make nice colour gradients. Another option is blending GPRIOR $c0 and GPRIOR $00 (just normal 160x antic E lines). Then we have 160x*192y*64c, without any (contrast) restrictions. I think the fairest comparision of picture modes is what the stock machine can do without any "extras" so c64 bitmap, A8 pick a mode + PMG ORing. No "raster" changes, so no colour changes, PMG position/size shifts etc. Plain old run a program, it displays a picture that the CPU has nothing to do with. That's simple. Then emkays example would count, and andy00's example not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 I think the fairest comparision of picture modes is what the stock machine can do without any "extras" so c64 bitmap, A8 pick a mode + PMG ORing. No "raster" changes, so no colour changes, PMG position/size shifts etc. Plain old run a program, it displays a picture that the CPU has nothing to do with. That's simple. Then emkays example would count, and andy00's example not. In that case obviously but then you know there are 1000s more C64 pics without any software involved, as Andy posted above for example, so compare that one with Emkay's instead Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 What mode was that lizard pic in? It looks a bit MUCSU to me, in which case its no flicker and barely any cpu (just change sprite defs every so often down the screen). Well, if you take a closer look you see it contains colours (or a colour resolution) the real C64 doesn't have. Flicker increases colour res. effectively, so it must be flicker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Just out of interest how would you get 176*239 256 colours? I know APAC 80x96 (or a bit bigger in X and Y if u want), so you need to have 2 of those to get the 239? one offset a line from the other? Then similar for the X res? so you need 4 bitmaps for it? APAC is a mixture of GPRIOR $40 and $c0. The horizontal offset of both types of scanline is the same, so effectively (without interlace, flicker) it's 80x*96y*256c (only PAL blending used). The $40 / $80 mixture has different horizontal offsets: The $80 mode uses the full 9 palette registers. The $40 mode doesn't use the palette registers but a fixed palette of 16 luma, so it starts 1/2 pixel earlier (i.e. to the left). With PAL blending and without interlace/flicker we have 9*16=144 colours and we already have somewhat more freedom than 80x. But when interlace/flicker is used, we can do $40,$80,$40,$80,...on even frames, and $80,$40,$80,$40,...on odd frames. Mixing this all up will give 160*192*144 or in widescreen & all scanlines: 176x*239y*144c. Only contrast is a problem, but we can make nice colour gradients. Another option is blending GPRIOR $c0 and GPRIOR $00 (just normal 160x antic E lines). Then we have 160x*192y*64c, without any (contrast) restrictions. So, not to be pedantic for the sake of it but you did say 256 colour but now it's down to 144 with contrast restrictions I'm honestly not trying to be a pain in the ass on purpose here, it's just being fairly new to the A8 I've learned a hell of a lot about what it's capable of already and know about those modes already (written code for them last week) but us new guys keep getting stuff like 256 colour this mode, that mode, only to find out they either look terrible, flicker like hell, only work properly on PAL, use up all the cpu, aren't actually 256 colour anyway. That's why I think if people are going to go on and on about which machine is the best for pictures (the same as in game capable modes) modes that make sense on both machines should be used for comparison. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 What mode was that lizard pic in? It looks a bit MUCSU to me, in which case its no flicker and barely any cpu (just change sprite defs every so often down the screen). IFLI I think.. It's not MUCSU.. I thought you weren't including CPU driven modes Algorithm (on AA as thealgorithm) just released a new update to the MUCSU stuff the other day.. It's even better than before now http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=83041 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 ...I think the fairest comparision of picture modes is what the stock machine can do without any "extras" so c64 bitmap, A8 pick a mode + PMG ORing. No "raster" changes, so no colour changes, PMG position/size shifts etc. Plain old run a program, it displays a picture that the CPU has nothing to do with. Pete You can not really think any of Atari boys will agree to that kind of comparisson ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 What mode was that lizard pic in? It looks a bit MUCSU to me, in which case its no flicker and barely any cpu (just change sprite defs every so often down the screen). Well, if you take a closer look you see it contains colours (or a colour resolution) the real C64 doesn't have. Flicker increases colour res. effectively, so it must be flicker. But not forgetting the C64 hires mode has colour ram. MUCSU then uses expanded multicolour sprites beneath that for extra colours. So you've got 320x200 res, black background 8x8 single colour, and 3 colour "areas" of 4:1 ratio beneath that. Without looking reaaaaaaaly hard I can't tell if that's possible with that pic or not and if it isn't running it through the MUCSU converter would produce something as good. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Well, if you take a closer look you see it contains colours (or a colour resolution) the real C64 doesn't have. Flicker increases colour res. effectively, so it must be flicker. Or PAL blending ? We've only got 5 Luma levels, but it's still more colours.. Or do these not count as 'real' colours ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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