andym00 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 No doubt the C64 can put up some nice 8-bit-era art, but it really illustrates the palette limitations - almost every picture you see is so heavy in same shades of blue and brown that they grow tiresome quickly. They do look good, however - I'll give you that. What resolution would you say those pictures are in? All of those pictures are in standard 320x200 hires mode.. The first lot are the standard hi-res mode using no additional CPU messing about or FLI or such like.. Just 2 colours per 8x8.. Spectrum mode if you want.. The last 4 are using NUFLI and Hi-Res FLI to increase the colours available per 8x8.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atarigmr Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 (edited) No doubt the C64 can put up some nice 8-bit-era art, but it really illustrates the palette limitations - almost every picture you see is so heavy in same shades of blue and brown that they grow tiresome quickly. They do look good, however - I'll give you that. What resolution would you say those pictures are in? All of those pictures are in standard 320x200 hires mode.. The first lot are the standard hi-res mode using no additional CPU messing about or FLI or such like.. Just 2 colours per 8x8.. Spectrum mode if you want.. The last 4 are using NUFLI and Hi-Res FLI to increase the colours available per 8x8.... I agree. And I used to call that mode also spectrum mode but actually it is better as we have more resolution and on the speccy the two colors used had to be of the same brightness(2 from the first 8, or 2 from the other 8 ), whilst the c64 can use two from the 16. Edited October 2, 2009 by Atarigmr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANTIQ Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Sprite layer is made from 4 color graphic mode with software sprites + PM black graphic for giving black edge to ships...(you can see those 2x1 black pixels on the separated background picture). They used EOR for erasing sprites ... But PMs are also the reason why the game is in BW... Color of PMs would mix with color registers of gtia and would make strange effects ... That's GRAPHICS 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gury Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 These C64 pictures looks washed out. I really don't like C64 graphics at all, there is something missing on them, colors are false. I still prefer A8 graphics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oky2000 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 " We're generally of the opinion that the Atari (8 bit) is a better computer for graphics at least, and it's easier to do fairly spectacular things on it." "...the major problem I think with the Commodore version is its lack of high resolution and the graphic presentation. ......... Those two comments relate to 1. The faster CPU is better for the calculation of the fractal graphics 2. The C64's higher lowest resolution means it is wasted as the game is plotted at the same lower resolution as the A8 BUT the C64 still has to update the 160x200 screen These are known facts done to death now. It's just like Shadow of the Beast on the Amiga, that game was designed to 100% utilise that machines capabilities so naturally that is the best version even compared to the SEGA or Nintendo versions. Same thing here, Loren Carpenter based his engine on a 160x100 or whatever resolution using the 1.8mhz CPU. Clearly something has changed by the Eidolon as the speed difference is barely noticeable and if it was 6502 optimisation for fractal calculations they would have applied those to the A8 while they were inverting the graphics calculated anyway so it must be a case of now rendering to 160x200. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oky2000 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Actually I am really surprised it is not on A8...American software house....even Apple II got a version...so why no A8 version even for $40 etc? Honestly it was one of the first games I got that made me sit up and think "wow" when I first played it....probably the best Ariolasoft release on the 64. A prototype supposedly exists. -- Atari Frog http://www.atarimania.com Would be fantastic if that ever surfaced even as just a playable demo of a few levels...it's really a great game for the time...on a par with RoF for me personally for the 'wow' factor. The Apple II version is good to if a little funny coloured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 I mean, without any additional CPU help, this is what you get ... ... Especially this one I like. Who is the artist behind it? Any link to a .prg of this one? It seems this one would benefit from PAL blending (WinVICE-1.21 supports that) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oky2000 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 I think this is a good example of what is possible just with 2 bitmap screens and palette swapping. and this is a great image showing what is possible with ZERO CPU usage...ie just using the video ram and colour ram in standard 2 colour per charblock mode. And for a nice bit of FMV with realtime decoding on a standard C64...(about 1 min on the time slider) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75Dht2acVnE I was looking for those demo pictures from Technicolor Dream by Redrat and couldn't find a proper screen capture of them but I do remember being stunned by them and the cottage picture would have been a perfect contrast to the house picture above...the usual trade-off Atari = blocky but high colour rez C64=sharp hires but less colours to play with hence the palette swapping interlace needed. Think that sums it up really...apart from does anyone have a link to the Tron FMV sequences played back on a C64 and A8 on youtube? I can't find them but they were good comparisons too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 (edited) I mean, without any additional CPU help, this is what you get ... ... Especially this one I like. Who is the artist behind it? Any link to a .prg of this one? It seems this one would benefit from PAL blending (WinVICE-1.21 supports that) I believe that one is by Ptoing http://noname.c64.org/csdb/scener/?id=11032 Yeah, it's the .... entry on that list. Pete Edited October 2, 2009 by PeteD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 I mean, without any additional CPU help, this is what you get ... ... Especially this one I like. Who is the artist behind it? Any link to a .prg of this one? It seems this one would benefit from PAL blending (WinVICE-1.21 supports that) I believe that one is by Ptoing http://noname.c64.org/csdb/scener/?id=11032 Yeah, it's the .... entry on that list. Pete Exactly, I found him: http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=58961 (did you edit in the meantime?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Yeah I was pretty sure it was one of his but didn't know what it was called. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 No doubt the C64 can put up some nice 8-bit-era art, but it really illustrates the palette limitations - almost every picture you see is so heavy in same shades of blue and brown that they grow tiresome quickly. They do look good, however - I'll give you that. What resolution would you say those pictures are in? All of those pictures are in standard 320x200 hires mode.. The first lot are the standard hi-res mode using no additional CPU messing about or FLI or such like.. Just 2 colours per 8x8.. Spectrum mode if you want.. The last 4 are using NUFLI and Hi-Res FLI to increase the colours available per 8x8.... So it's an unfair comparison to compare with some standard 80*200 GTIA image as this did not address the point about shading and resolution being half. And using color RAM allows Atari to have DLIs every few lines to swap palettes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 These C64 pictures looks washed out. I really don't like C64 graphics at all, there is something missing on them, colors are false. I still prefer A8 graphics. Well, it's currently just a hodge-podge of comparing Apples and Oranges. You can't put up interlaced images captured with emulator and compare with non-interlaced images as the flicker doesn't show up and is more significant on C64. And you can't compare shaded imagery with miscolored imagery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atarian63 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 I think the fairest comparision of picture modes is what the stock machine can do without any "extras" so c64 bitmap, A8 pick a mode + PMG ORing. No "raster" changes, so no colour changes, PMG position/size shifts etc. Plain old run a program, it displays a picture that the CPU has nothing to do with. For What it is worth, That is a really cute pic, I am snagging it for the background on my daughters pc. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 For What it is worth, That is a really cute pic, I am snagging it for the background on my daughters pc. Thanks! It was part of an accidental series, that image was posted first and then the peace was shattered when a dragon turned up... ...but he wasn't a nasty dragon... ...and now the three are all friends! Aww, how cute!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Well, it's currently just a hodge-podge of comparing Apples and Oranges. You can't put up interlaced images captured with emulator and compare with non-interlaced images as the flicker doesn't show up and is more significant on C64. And you can't compare shaded imagery with miscolored imagery. It's no hodge podge of whatever fruit analogy you choose to use.. I'll say it again just to be 100% clear this time.. They're not interlaced pictures, therefore there is no flicker.. They're just plain old fashioned Hires modes, or (in the case of the last 4) FLI'd hi-res or NU-FLI hires.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 (edited) So it's an unfair comparison to compare with some standard 80*200 GTIA image as this did not address the point about shading and resolution being half. And using color RAM allows Atari to have DLIs every few lines to swap palettes. It was simply a comparison of the stock highest colour graphics mode, without having the CPU doing any legwork, on both platforms.. A8 highest colour mode Vs. C64 highest colour mode[1].. It was nothing more than that.. And now it's unfair ? Awwww.. [1] The colour mode you and so many others readily choose to chastise for being utterly shite.. Edited October 2, 2009 by andym00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 (edited) It seems this one would benefit from PAL blending (WinVICE-1.21 supports that) It does a lot.. There's a fair bit there, the hat stripe, bridge of the nose, and his shadow.. I've never been convinced by WinVices PAL blending.. Look back in this thread where I posted the pictures of real TV PAL blending where you see the order of the colours makes a different (and a few posts done is the Vice output).. ie: Odd/Even gives a different colour than Even/Odd, whereas in emulators (well WinVice at least) the odd/even order doesn't alter the colour at all.. The effect on real TVs is small, but noticeable in a lot of the cases.. Edited October 2, 2009 by andym00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANTIQ Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 oky? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 They look washed out to me Honestly they do, I'm not just taking the piss, washed out or dull. Are they APAC? if so then all that stuff (including code and tests I've done myself) look quite washed out due to the "scanline" effect it produces. And having said all that they still aren't on a par with the C64 ones, in my opinion, too much "area" of colour to them which is odd if they are APAC cuz its "any pixel/point any colour" (apart from it not reaaaaly being every pixel). Not bad though for what they are, I rather like the 2nd one as it's the least "areaey" (yeah, made that one up). Also, try attaching them full size so the blockiness isn't scaled away Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oky2000 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 oky? Nice colour graduations on those but I don't think that's the one...I'm so bored I think I'll go scan through my issues of Atari User to find the one with the review of Technicolor Dream in it and take a snapshot now while the hot water is on Found some demo disks for it too but they didn't have the house or the sphinx picture I remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 (edited) Now those do look a lot nicer, even on a scan. Well, apart from the train. I suppose someone got confused when they heard "tube train" Is the cottage by the water one not the same pic? but with a better palette? Pete Edited October 2, 2009 by PeteD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thealgorithm Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 oky? You kidding? what is that? Yes the Atari has more colors, but no way in the world do these images compare to what the c64 has to offer regardless of the color availability. Like i said before, i believe the atari has potential but certainly not realised at this present time if at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 oky? Do the originals of those exist, I mean before they were APAC'd ? Or whatever contraption mode that is ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 (edited) Sorry, couldn't resist trying out the new colour stuff in MUCSU to see if Jeff Minters mug broke it Edited October 2, 2009 by andym00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Like us on Facebook
Follow us on Twitter
AtariAge on Instagram
Watch us on YouTube
Chat on Discord
Recommended Posts