Rockford Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Today another classic from the "golden era of atari" 32 - CASTLE WOLFENSTEIN C64 C64 C64 The C64 version has better graphics, colours, sound and handling. The Atari version has monochrome graphics and very poor sound (there are no sounds of footsteps and digitized nazi voices are a joke ) C64 is better again. ATARI ATARI ATARI 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Sorry, couldn't resist trying out the new colour stuff in MUCSU to see if Jeff Minters mug broke it It's a nice app, but like any of them, with some artist retouching (that sounds reallly wrong) it can be made a load better. I ran something through it quickly earlier and could see straight away ways of improving the actual finished image, but I know how hard this stuff is to automate cuz I'm trying to do similar stuff for my tools atm Anyway, going off topic again cuz we're not arguing over A8 screen modes Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 ...but no way in the world do these images compare to what the c64 has to offer regardless of the color availability... Such a sentence could be interpreted as if you'd like to say that C64 can do the same as in these pictures, or even (lightyears (Oswald quote)) better. Maybe the 2nd/3rd are a bit washed out, also in my opinion they are indeed, but that's also choice of gfx content, and not only 'worse' A8 features. The 1st does a good job. Simply put, the C64 lacks the possibilities to do any of those 3, but still C64 shows them 'in a better way'??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thealgorithm Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 ...but no way in the world do these images compare to what the c64 has to offer regardless of the color availability... Such a sentence could be interpreted as if you'd like to say that C64 can do the same as in these pictures, or even (lightyears (Oswald quote)) better. Maybe the 2nd/3rd are a bit washed out, also in my opinion they are indeed, but that's also choice of gfx content, and not only 'worse' A8 features. The 1st does a good job. Simply put, the C64 lacks the possibilities to do any of those 3, but still C64 shows them 'in a better way'??? No the c64 cant do the same as those pictures as it lacks the color possibilities but fact is that the images on c64 look better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 ...but no way in the world do these images compare to what the c64 has to offer regardless of the color availability... Such a sentence could be interpreted as if you'd like to say that C64 can do the same as in these pictures, or even (lightyears (Oswald quote)) better. Maybe the 2nd/3rd are a bit washed out, also in my opinion they are indeed, but that's also choice of gfx content, and not only 'worse' A8 features. The 1st does a good job. Simply put, the C64 lacks the possibilities to do any of those 3, but still C64 shows them 'in a better way'??? I think there's still a lack of anything really decent done in APAC (if that is what those 3 pics are). Even "wired" stuff I've seen looks odd. Those pics still seem to be large areas of "shades" rather than a more complex image which is at least in those examples why the posted C64 pics look better (my opinion disclaimer inserted again). I'm going to add APAC drawing mode to my PC graphics tools when Fist is done and hopefully some artists will show what it can do but I'm sure a decent converter should be able to spit out a pic from PC that looks decent. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 ...but no way in the world do these images compare to what the c64 has to offer regardless of the color availability... Such a sentence could be interpreted as if you'd like to say that C64 can do the same as in these pictures, or even (lightyears (Oswald quote)) better. Maybe the 2nd/3rd are a bit washed out, also in my opinion they are indeed, but that's also choice of gfx content, and not only 'worse' A8 features. The 1st does a good job. Simply put, the C64 lacks the possibilities to do any of those 3, but still C64 shows them 'in a better way'??? ...to continue...Look here: http://atari.fandal.cz/detail.php?files_id=102 It's a classic one (Altar). It's an interlaced pic, 160x*192y*64c. Non-interlaced (even/odd frames) it's still 160x*96y*64c, by the virtue of PAL blending. This mode I'd call 'double APAC' (I don't know the official type name). The hue resolution is 80x*96y and the luma resolution is 160*96y (still pictures, no interlace). ...but, this is of course far (lightyears) worse than C64 features. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thealgorithm Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 ...but no way in the world do these images compare to what the c64 has to offer regardless of the color availability... Such a sentence could be interpreted as if you'd like to say that C64 can do the same as in these pictures, or even (lightyears (Oswald quote)) better. Maybe the 2nd/3rd are a bit washed out, also in my opinion they are indeed, but that's also choice of gfx content, and not only 'worse' A8 features. The 1st does a good job. Simply put, the C64 lacks the possibilities to do any of those 3, but still C64 shows them 'in a better way'??? ...to continue...Look here: http://atari.fandal.cz/detail.php?files_id=102 It's a classic one (Altar). It's an interlaced pic, 160x*192y*64c. Non-interlaced (even/odd frames) it's still 160x*96y*64c, by the virtue of PAL blending. This mode I'd call 'double APAC' (I don't know the official type name). The hue resolution is 80x*96y and the luma resolution is 160*96y (still pictures, no interlace). ...but, this is of course far (lightyears) worse than C64 features. The picture looks horrible. Even standard c64 koala (look at some of mermaids pics) look far better than this offering. I am sure the Atari has more potential however. One question. Can the Atari display sprites under a hires pic? If so then there is certainly some potential Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 (edited) It's a nice app, but like any of them, with some artist retouching (that sounds reallly wrong) it can be made a load better. I ran something through it quickly earlier and could see straight away ways of improving the actual finished image, but I know how hard this stuff is to automate cuz I'm trying to do similar stuff for my tools atm It's an awesome tool as it stands, and I think the converter demonstrates the power of such a simple mode.. I'd hope that eventually tools come to support that mode, but I've a horrible feeling NUFLI is going to rule the roost when it finally reaches the masses.. But I think for doing stuff whilst looking all nice and hires it'll probably become the next big thing.. At least I hope so.. I do love MUCSU simply because it made me start thinking about, playing with and eventually building some stuff on the C64 using that screen mode, and plotting hires software sprites with colour that also plotted into the sprite mid-layer But I got very very bogged down in the software sprite stuff in that mode.. But having said, the last few weeks of A8 playing and the many many many many many many many different sprite techniques I've explored have opened up some new avenues I'd never thought of before, so I intend to revisit that stuff later.. The goal was some game fully scrolling but approaching Amiga/ST 16 colour graphics at full 320x200 Believe me this crash course in software sprites has been a godsend =) Anyway, going off topic again cuz we're not arguing over A8 screen modes lol, yeah, back on topic I thought these APAC modes looked almost grey scale on the real hardware ? Washed out some might call it.. Or so I recall from some old threads here ? Or maybe I've confused that with another of the wunder-modi.. Edited October 2, 2009 by andym00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atarian63 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 For What it is worth, That is a really cute pic, I am snagging it for the background on my daughters pc. Thanks! It was part of an accidental series, that image was posted first and then the peace was shattered when a dragon turned up... ...but he wasn't a nasty dragon... ...and now the three are all friends! Aww, how cute!! Neat stuff! Yeah cutsie but my girls will dig it! Thanks so much! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 ...The Atari version has monochrome graphics... You didn't turn on interlace. Some games were specially written for interlacing. Then some 'colours' appear (Not that I'm a fan of this one ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atarian63 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Today another classic from the "golden era of atari" 32 - CASTLE WOLFENSTEIN C64 C64 C64 The C64 version has better graphics, colours, sound and handling. The Atari version has monochrome graphics and very poor sound (there are no sounds of footsteps and digitized nazi voices are a joke ) C64 is better again. ATARI ATARI ATARI Poor programming again, probably some c64 programmer not knowing A8. You have a talent for finding the few that exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thealgorithm Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 It's a nice app, but like any of them, with some artist retouching (that sounds reallly wrong) it can be made a load better. I ran something through it quickly earlier and could see straight away ways of improving the actual finished image, but I know how hard this stuff is to automate cuz I'm trying to do similar stuff for my tools atm It's an awesome tool as it stands, and I think the converter demonstrates the power of such a simple mode.. I'd hope that eventually tools come to support that mode, but I've a horrible feeling NUFLI is going to rule the roost when it finally reaches the masses.. But I think for doing stuff whilst looking all nice and hires it'll probably become the next big thing.. At least I hope so.. I do love MUCSU simply because it made me start thinking about, playing with and eventually building some stuff on the C64 using that screen mode, and plotting hires software sprites with colour that also plotted into the sprite mid-layer But I got very very bogged down in the software sprite stuff in that mode.. But having said, the last few weeks of A8 playing and the many many many many many many many different sprite techniques I've explored have opened up some new avenues I'd never thought of before, so I intend to revisit that stuff later.. The goal was some game fully scrolling but approaching Amiga/ST 16 colour graphics at full 320x200 Believe me this crash course in software sprites has been a godsend =) Anyway, going off topic again cuz we're not arguing over A8 screen modes lol, yeah, back on topic I thought these APAC modes looked almost grey scale on the real hardware ? Washed out some might call it.. Or so I recall from some old threads here ? Or maybe I've confused that with another of the wunder-modi.. Like i had said before. The MUCSU mode was initially created for my video decoder on c64. I later decided to use the split color method to increase the quality (quality can be increased further - Super MUSC - coming soon) but uses all processing time. NUFLI conversion is trivial but is not as clean as MUSC mode (eg limitations on first 3 char columns and last column as well as using more than one bank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irgendwer Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 32 - CASTLE WOLFENSTEIN CASTLE WOLFENSTEIN: 7.4 Star Raiders II: 7.5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STE'86 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 (edited) in all honesty mate, even in '86/'87 that pic if done on the 64 would have been just "average" and lost amongst the many other better ones of the time. 64 colours it may be but its still just average quality. oh and my take on all the "cpu assisted" crap on all machines is "if u can't draw in it and have to wire it, it's bogus" edit: ah star raiders 2 that was a nice looking game. lacked the play depth after a few hours tho, compared to the original. but didnt they make a right fck up of the 64 version? i remember seeking that out amongst a load of pirate stuff and laughing at it. point 2 is how the hell did that castle wolfenstein get that high a score. the programmer must have a lot of friends who go to lemon. Steve Edited October 2, 2009 by STE'86 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 It's a classic one (Altar). It's an interlaced pic, 160x*192y*64c. Non-interlaced (even/odd frames) it's still 160x*96y*64c, by the virtue of PAL blending. This mode I'd call 'double APAC' (I don't know the official type name). The hue resolution is 80x*96y and the luma resolution is 160*96y (still pictures, no interlace). Sorry, but that really does just look like a poor standard C64 multi-colour bitmap.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 ...but no way in the world do these images compare to what the c64 has to offer regardless of the color availability... Such a sentence could be interpreted as if you'd like to say that C64 can do the same as in these pictures, or even (lightyears (Oswald quote)) better. Maybe the 2nd/3rd are a bit washed out, also in my opinion they are indeed, but that's also choice of gfx content, and not only 'worse' A8 features. The 1st does a good job. Simply put, the C64 lacks the possibilities to do any of those 3, but still C64 shows them 'in a better way'??? ...to continue...Look here: http://atari.fandal.cz/detail.php?files_id=102 It's a classic one (Altar). It's an interlaced pic, 160x*192y*64c. Non-interlaced (even/odd frames) it's still 160x*96y*64c, by the virtue of PAL blending. This mode I'd call 'double APAC' (I don't know the official type name). The hue resolution is 80x*96y and the luma resolution is 160*96y (still pictures, no interlace). ...but, this is of course far (lightyears) worse than C64 features. The picture looks horrible. Even standard c64 koala (look at some of mermaids pics) look far better than this offering. I am sure the Atari has more potential however. One question. Can the Atari display sprites under a hires pic? If so then there is certainly some potential ...maybe to your opinion. Then I'd like to see a 100% exact replica of that one on C64. Anyway, I don't like to discuss opinions. The fact is that C64 can't do such pictures For an example of HiRes + PMU: Look here at post 9427 (wowzers, this looks more like a chatting session instead) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 The picture looks horrible. Even standard c64 koala (look at some of mermaids pics) look far better than this offering. I am sure the Atari has more potential however. One question. Can the Atari display sprites under a hires pic? If so then there is certainly some potential Pretty sure it can't if what I gleaned from a similar question in another thread is correct. You can use them as "overlays" but that's trickier than it sounds and also means no using the hires foreground for a higher resolution "mask" of the PMGs. I agree the picture isn't great (opinion, blah blah). I think the A8 is just missing out on some good artists to be fair. Not that I could do any better, far from it but the level of pixeling skills on the C64 seems to be far above the majority of A8 stuff. There are some great guys on A8 as well but it seems they don't venture into the weird modes so much or aren't as active as some of the other platform sceners. Maybe if the tools were better some other scene folk could be persuaded to venture into A8 land. Hell, even pixeling n00bs, I'm not trying to make this a C64 vs thing again there are great artists on all the platforms that seem to produce amazing stuff within their own limits. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 (edited) ...The Atari version has monochrome graphics... You didn't turn on interlace. Some games were specially written for interlacing. Then some 'colours' appear (Not that I'm a fan of this one ). Artifacting you mean of course Edited October 2, 2009 by andym00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Like i had said before. The MUCSU mode was initially created for my video decoder on c64. I later decided to use the split color method to increase the quality (quality can be increased further - Super MUSC - coming soon) but uses all processing time. NUFLI conversion is trivial but is not as clean as MUSC mode (eg limitations on first 3 char columns and last column as well as using more than one bank Well I think MUCSU is fantastic as an addition to hires pics. I (like Andy) have plans for some future C64 (and hopefully A8) hires game stuff if only because something in hires looks so different to most other stuff, even if it's only 2 shades. (sorry A8'ers off topic again lol apart from the bit about A8 hires games..) Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irgendwer Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 You didn't turn on interlace. Some games were specially written for interlacing. Then some 'colours' appear (Not that I'm a fan of this one ). I think you meant 'artifacting'? Yes, some games were done with this in respect, but I think it's not very good thing to rely on too (especially when you have a PAL system... ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thealgorithm Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 ...but no way in the world do these images compare to what the c64 has to offer regardless of the color availability... Such a sentence could be interpreted as if you'd like to say that C64 can do the same as in these pictures, or even (lightyears (Oswald quote)) better. Maybe the 2nd/3rd are a bit washed out, also in my opinion they are indeed, but that's also choice of gfx content, and not only 'worse' A8 features. The 1st does a good job. Simply put, the C64 lacks the possibilities to do any of those 3, but still C64 shows them 'in a better way'??? ...to continue...Look here: http://atari.fandal.cz/detail.php?files_id=102 It's a classic one (Altar). It's an interlaced pic, 160x*192y*64c. Non-interlaced (even/odd frames) it's still 160x*96y*64c, by the virtue of PAL blending. This mode I'd call 'double APAC' (I don't know the official type name). The hue resolution is 80x*96y and the luma resolution is 160*96y (still pictures, no interlace). ...but, this is of course far (lightyears) worse than C64 features. The picture looks horrible. Even standard c64 koala (look at some of mermaids pics) look far better than this offering. I am sure the Atari has more potential however. One question. Can the Atari display sprites under a hires pic? If so then there is certainly some potential ...maybe to your opinion. Then I'd like to see a 100% exact replica of that one on C64. Anyway, I don't like to discuss opinions. The fact is that C64 can't do such pictures For an example of HiRes + PMU: Look here at post 9427 (wowzers, this looks more like a chatting session instead) No. I agree the c64 cant do a replica of this due to not having these colors. but why would it want to be a replica of that? At the end of the day, does not matter if a machine can show colors which another one cant show. its the end result that matters and if you want to show the 'best' atari pic, the c64 will win hands down regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockford Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 ...The Atari version has monochrome graphics... You didn't turn on interlace. Some games were specially written for interlacing. Then some 'colours' appear (Not that I'm a fan of this one ). I am fully aware of that trick, but it doesn't work on Pal machines at all, so these are no true "colours". Besides, even with this trick the Atari version still looks worse than C64 one and blinks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 (edited) ...The Atari version has monochrome graphics... You didn't turn on artefacting. Some games were specially written for interlacing. Then some 'colours' appear (Not that I'm a fan of this one ). Artifacting you mean of course Yes, didn't I write that? Edited October 2, 2009 by analmux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irgendwer Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 ... but why would it want to be a replica of that? ... Maybe you like a replica of this: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thealgorithm Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 ... but why would it want to be a replica of that? ... Maybe you like a replica of this: That is horrible quality. Are you sure you have not seen what the C64 has to offer? I am sure if you did, you would not post a picture like this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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