popmilo Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Atari will win hands down on most static pictures that use tons of CPU time and interlace because it has superior palette, more CPU time, and better interlace. Utter claptrap again.. From the evidence posted here "the Atari winning on most static pictures the use tons of CPU time and interlace" is a complete and utter fallacy.. From what I've seen posted here and from looking around there's nothing but stacks of bad ports of 64 pictures and bad attempts at full colour digitised pictures at mechanical TV resolutions.. You say it can do better ? Prove me wrong, please.. Show me picture where it clearly wins.. Stop the bullcrap with the AGAIN word. You haven't shown where it was claptrap neither this time nor previously. Atari wins hands down with MOST static pictures is a fact if you know the technical what an Atari can do. No fallacy to it but I know you have to deny this since you are a C64 fan. You can't generalize anything from what's posted in a few places. As I stated, 64 picture ports are not good for showing what Atari can do. It's better to see it logically that it can do better rather than showing a few pictures here and there. I am sure I can turn out a few pictures if I put a few hours into it. But what's the problem with understanding the logic-- even simple ANTIC mode E with palette switch every scanline gives you potential for 128 different colors on screen simultaneously whereas you re-use the same 16. More mid-screen color changes than C64 gives you another batch. Sprite overlays/underlays with GPRIOR mode 0 gives a bunch of more combinations. Vector quantize the results to a given image and there you have it-- and all not even touching GTIA modes yet. And there's another mode E' which you may have read about in this thread. I'll let you explain this to me and if you can then I'll take your words more seriously since your conclusion can only be valid ("utter fallacy") if you know both machines potential. I agree with you on color numbers on atari and that is all OK. You should see with your own eyes some of these MUSCU, MCSU, NUFLI, super Nufli or whatever is one of these hires-spritelayer-changecolors mode called... Connect good 14-15'' video monitor on real hardware and see it from 1m distance... Details are incredible... I use small 37cm TV as monitor for both commodore128 and atari800 and A8s 160xSomething (or APAC,TIP and rest...) colorfull images look really good, especially digitized ones (these are better on A8), but as I said details are more then one step better on commodore hires mode... I think A8s features are not used to the max ... There is room for new converters and editors... and if we could draw something static, it will be easier to move it around and make it more fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Atari with VBXE2 - yes, naturally that's going to blow the C64 away. But we should expect that with such a fundamental hardware enhancement. Of course, but we're not arguing recent video systems being strapped to the machines (well okay, we are to a degree with the GTIA modes since they weren't bolted in until a few years after the machine went out) and the C64 camp simply took it in another direction and produced enhanced versions of the entire machine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STE'86 Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 mate that is bloody awful. it looks like a pc svga screen stripped down without dither to a 16 colour gif. Could it be that you don't like pictures of 'Monet' too? No dithering and no false colours in his artwork... nice try but i am well wise to the atari forum tactic no.1 "if the argument is being lost then deflect it off on another tangent at all costs" i stand by what i said, that pic is a NASTY piece of derezzed, decoloured tat. show me the version monet did with no gradient of tonal values and blocks of flat colour? thats why computers have dithering. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 (edited) The C64 is lucky to have so many excellent artists dedicated to making great pixel art on it, the A8 seems to lack the dedicated pixel pushers sadly... Devil's advocaat for a moment, perhaps more artists went for the C64 because it's the more flexible machine to work with... Edited October 3, 2009 by TMR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 (edited) (enjoyed the game mechanics / hardware discussion a lot more than "hey, don't these pictures kind of suck somehow?" one) You and me both, mate... Sort of on that subject, i've been mulling over GTIA-based backgrounds and questions like which is better, going for 4:1 ratio pixels at sixteen colours or having each pixel line repeat so they can be 2:1? The latter is easier (in my case it'll reduce the CPU load for background-related jobs by over 50% and drawing game graphics in 4:1 ratio is an utter pig) but feels like cheating somehow. Edited October 3, 2009 by TMR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 And obviously that pic you posted was up to Monet standard? At least I tried to recreate (given the technical restrictions) a little bit of his style. Sorry, I still like it. Don't be sorry It's not my intention to force my views on what is aesthetically pleasing to ME upon anyone else. What isn't right is to be presumptuous enough to compare it to Monet and by comparison make more presumptions that other people therefore don't like Monet Having said that, I for one can NOT draw and so anything above stick figures is beyond me so I have every respect for anyone who even tries. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irgendwer Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 ... show me the version monet did with no gradient of tonal values and blocks of flat colour? ... IMHO there is not much gradient in e.g. 'The Regatta at Argenteuil (Régate à Argenteuil)', but I also see trees volumetric. Artistic freedom is a nice thing, isn't it? thats why computers have dithering. If you had said 'computers restricted to <20bit colours benefit from dithering to bluff more colours' I would agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thealgorithm Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Another spate of technical blather with NO visible proof, is there something wrong with people's eyes!?!? Some (not all I hasten to add) of those C64 images are excellent, the "girl and dragon" series in particular is wonderful, great draftsmanship and use of color. The C64 is lucky to have so many excellent artists dedicated to making great pixel art on it, the A8 seems to lack the dedicated pixel pushers sadly... But all is not lost, I like these A8 images - not they are not BETTER, or meant to be something to compare against, they are just pictures on the A8 I think are GOOD artistically and use the machine well... A quick experimentation. I got two of these images (above. shrunk each vertically, put them side by side and fed them through my converter) Pre dithering to utilise vertical pal color mixing (which does generate additional colors on c64). Image is in MUSC mode. Yes of course more colors on Atari 800 to choose from but this c64 example you have twice the horizontal resolution and with the inclusion of pal mixing, more colors than the 16! The second picture are two multicolor pictures by mermaid but fed through the converter and displaying 2 pictures simultaneously in hires. Ofcourse quality is even better now as image has been specifically drawn for c64. Bear in mind that these pictures are NON interlaced. I would like to see the Atari display high resolution with this many colors. Does not matter if Atari has hundreds or so of colors to choose from. The limited resolution is a great disadvantage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STE'86 Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 ... show me the version monet did with no gradient of tonal values and blocks of flat colour? ... IMHO there is not much gradient in e.g. 'The Regatta at Argenteuil (Régate à Argenteuil)', but I also see trees volumetric. Artistic freedom is a nice thing, isn't it? thats why computers have dithering. If you had said 'computers restricted to <20bit colours benefit from dithering to bluff more colours' I would agree. no tonal range in that? u think? try derezzing and decolouring it and see how much of that sky is left. i see however u have gone to forum tactic no.2 "if u cant deflect them on to a tangent then revert to pendantism" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STE'86 Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 LOL dammit i nearly fell for that! u hadnt moved off tactic No.1 at all it was just a smokescreen to get me of the subject of your horibble port jobs and onto talking about real paintings instead! very nicely done but i won't play sorry. i will not be moved off the subject of crap wired art onto real art. 10/10 for that attempt tho. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 i see however u have gone to forum tactic no.2 "if u cant deflect them on to a tangent then revert to pendantism" i think you'll find that's tactic number 3 actually. (Yes it's a terrible joke, no i couldn't resist okay?!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thealgorithm Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 (edited) For realtime codec work it is impressive for a 1mhz 6510 in any case. Looks better than those A8 Matrix reloaded videos anyway and faster too I can't find the bloody Tron lightcycles C64 realtime video on youtube though which was great. Your personal preference. A8 Matrix scene is clearly better and cannot be done on C64. Fact. First of all the Matrix video is streamed directly to Atari via harddrive or similar. that is cheating. That C64 motion video of mine (sabrina) uses stock hardware and all the data is on one side of a floppy disk (around 100k of data for the video!! I would like to see something like this on Atari C64 can do much better :-) Watch out for MUCSU Video :-) Hires 320x200 full colors :-) not the blocky 80xwhatever in the matrix vid Edited October 3, 2009 by thealgorithm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 You compare this crap to the "Matrix" ? It isn't even a video. It's some animation played forward and backward.... and the music comes from SID. You C64 guys really have problems with reality, I guess. Does the Matrix video play backwards ? No! Therefore the c64 is 2 times better because it has 2 playback directions on it.. You do not see the power of commodore after being blinding by your low resolutions! Sound familiar ? LOLMAO The video plays backward to save CPU time and Memory. This is not to show "great powers", it's just a reuse of data. You guys get ridiculous more and more.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tezz Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 I would like to see the Atari display high resolution with this many colors. Does not matter if Atari has hundreds or so of colors to choose from. The limited resolution is a great disadvantageWell, the colourmap modes available on the c64 (and other platforms) is sadly not available to us and also the limits of the hi-res modes (320x) are more restrictve... it's all completely irrellevent to compare the features of a different and older platform. On the other hand saying that there are no good artists on the A8 and also moreover that the A8 is incapable of producing anything decent full stop is not right. Here's some further examples from Powrooz, Bewu and me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thealgorithm Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 You compare this crap to the "Matrix" ? It isn't even a video. It's some animation played forward and backward.... and the music comes from SID. You C64 guys really have problems with reality, I guess. Does the Matrix video play backwards ? No! Therefore the c64 is 2 times better because it has 2 playback directions on it.. You do not see the power of commodore after being blinding by your low resolutions! Sound familiar ? LOLMAO The video plays backward to save CPU time and Memory. This is not to show "great powers", it's just a reuse of data. You guys get ridiculous more and more.... The Sabrina demo was just a quick proof of concept demo that demonstrated my VQ converter. Yes, the demonstrations preloads lookuptable data while showing a ping pong animation and frame flicking only requires two register writes! But... It is running on stock hardware not streaming from an external device or framegrabber etc The matrix demo only just streams data from high capacity storage media. If this was done on c64 imagine having NUFLI running at 12 frames per second???? I have implemented streaming system to new video mode (this allows mucsu video) and using around 500-600 bytes per frame and running on STOCK hardware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irgendwer Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 ... try derezzing and decolouring it and see how much of that sky is left. ... Here the result. Ok, without ulterior motives, which one reproduces better the impression? (16 colours, typical rez) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thealgorithm Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 I would like to see the Atari display high resolution with this many colors. Does not matter if Atari has hundreds or so of colors to choose from. The limited resolution is a great disadvantageWell, the colourmap modes available on the c64 (and other platforms) is sadly not available to us and also the limits of the hi-res modes (320x) are more restrictve... it's all completely irrellevent to compare the features of a different and older platform. On the other hand saying that there are no good artists on the A8 and also moreover that the A8 is incapable of producing anything decent full stop is not right. Here's some further examples from Powrooz, Bewu and me. Yes they are great pictures and i love the color availability of the Atari800. If it could do this in hires, it would be great but albeit this is not the case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Here's some further examples from Powrooz, Bewu and me. Nice work - they are good pictures, whatever resolution or total number of colors... sTeVE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 (edited) Another spate of technical blather with NO visible proof, is there something wrong with people's eyes!?!? Some (not all I hasten to add) of those C64 images are excellent, the "girl and dragon" series in particular is wonderful, great draftsmanship and use of color. The C64 is lucky to have so many excellent artists dedicated to making great pixel art on it, the A8 seems to lack the dedicated pixel pushers sadly... But all is not lost, I like these A8 images - not they are not BETTER, or meant to be something to compare against, they are just pictures on the A8 I think are GOOD artistically and use the machine well... A quick experimentation. I got two of these images (above. shrunk each vertically, put them side by side and fed them through my converter) Pre dithering to utilise vertical pal color mixing (which does generate additional colors on c64). Image is in MUSC mode. Yes of course more colors on Atari 800 to choose from but this c64 example you have twice the horizontal resolution and with the inclusion of pal mixing, more colors than the 16! The second picture are two multicolor pictures by mermaid but fed through the converter and displaying 2 pictures simultaneously in hires. Ofcourse quality is even better now as image has been specifically drawn for c64. Bear in mind that these pictures are NON interlaced. I would like to see the Atari display high resolution with this many colors. Does not matter if Atari has hundreds or so of colors to choose from. The limited resolution is a great disadvantage Sorry man, but IMO your pics don't really qualify. Using PAL blending/dithering you sacrifice your so called 'higher resolution'. One thing I have to admit: It's better to add contrast (using hires) to small sections of a picture, but the rest has really lower 'effective quality'. [EDIT: i.e. lower with respect to hires, before you'll pick that as a point of A8-side trolling ] Edited October 3, 2009 by analmux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 ...oh yes, and to add to that (before I forget ) On A8 only a few CPU interventions are needed to reposition some PMG here & there, for these 2 pics. How much CPU time do your C64 MUSC/MUCSU versions of those pics need? Wasn't it IFLI + sprite underlays? IFLI needing 6510 intervention every scanline? Would be interesting to see effect of GED-- applied to HiRes on Atari. It's a pity almost no examples are out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thealgorithm Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Another spate of technical blather with NO visible proof, is there something wrong with people's eyes!?!? Some (not all I hasten to add) of those C64 images are excellent, the "girl and dragon" series in particular is wonderful, great draftsmanship and use of color. The C64 is lucky to have so many excellent artists dedicated to making great pixel art on it, the A8 seems to lack the dedicated pixel pushers sadly... But all is not lost, I like these A8 images - not they are not BETTER, or meant to be something to compare against, they are just pictures on the A8 I think are GOOD artistically and use the machine well... A quick experimentation. I got two of these images (above. shrunk each vertically, put them side by side and fed them through my converter) Pre dithering to utilise vertical pal color mixing (which does generate additional colors on c64). Image is in MUSC mode. Yes of course more colors on Atari 800 to choose from but this c64 example you have twice the horizontal resolution and with the inclusion of pal mixing, more colors than the 16! The second picture are two multicolor pictures by mermaid but fed through the converter and displaying 2 pictures simultaneously in hires. Ofcourse quality is even better now as image has been specifically drawn for c64. Bear in mind that these pictures are NON interlaced. I would like to see the Atari display high resolution with this many colors. Does not matter if Atari has hundreds or so of colors to choose from. The limited resolution is a great disadvantage Sorry man, but IMO your pics don't really qualify. Using PAL blending/dithering you sacrifice your so called 'higher resolution'. One thing I have to admit: It's better to add contrast (using hires) to small sections of a picture, but the rest has really lower 'effective quality'. [EDIT: i.e. lower with respect to hires, before you'll pick that as a point of A8-side trolling ] No there is no sacrifice at all. Combination of pal blending with hires particularly when its specifically drawn to take advantage of both is the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thealgorithm Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 ...oh yes, and to add to that (before I forget ) On A8 only a few CPU interventions are needed to reposition some PMG here & there, for these 2 pics. How much CPU time do your C64 MUSC/MUCSU versions of those pics need? Wasn't it IFLI + sprite underlays? IFLI needing 6510 intervention every scanline? Would be interesting to see effect of GED-- applied to HiRes on Atari. It's a pity almost no examples are out there. How much time? Only need to reposition and change sprites once every 21 raster lines. If you are talking about underlaying sprites on FLI then quality would be far far better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thealgorithm Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 ...oh yes, and to add to that (before I forget ) On A8 only a few CPU interventions are needed to reposition some PMG here & there, for these 2 pics. How much CPU time do your C64 MUSC/MUCSU versions of those pics need? Wasn't it IFLI + sprite underlays? IFLI needing 6510 intervention every scanline? Would be interesting to see effect of GED-- applied to HiRes on Atari. It's a pity almost no examples are out there. Now this is what i would like to see. Hires with plenty of colors on Atari. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANTIQ Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Of course, but we're not arguing recent video systems being strapped to the machines (well okay, we are to a degree with the GTIA modes since they weren't bolted in until a few years after the machine went out) and the C64 camp simply took it in another direction and produced enhanced versions of the entire machine. GTIA predates the C64 very slightly. (Three guesses why!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 The matrix demo only just streams data from high capacity storage media. If this was done on c64 imagine having NUFLI running at 12 frames per second???? I have implemented streaming system to new video mode (this allows mucsu video) and using around 500-600 bytes per frame and running on STOCK hardware. The Matrix runs with full synched sound. Discussions of external media is useless. No external HD device currently exists that is using DMA. It's done by data polling. What to say.... POKEY divisor set to 1 can load faster with less cpu consumption. With a real highspeed external device you can put the Atari to the TV set, having clear sound and fullscreen b/w or interlaced 256 colours , you don't need to put your binoculars on then, to view ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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