Atari v Commodore

[Oswald]

maybe you should explain, I dont speak polish. also there's nothing the speccy does gfx wise the c64 cant do.. well except 8 colors so if antic can only do 2 colors what on earth the c64 should do? it can display 8 of the speccy's color and every pixel accurately. its more precise than a8's emulation of speccy's gfx.

My take on it is that the A8 can display the screen the way Spectrum software draws it, and it would have to be manually reordered for proper display on the C64.

 

but that doesnt stops the c64 being able to emulate the speccy, as xxl claims...

[FastRobPlus]

Since the best sales figures available show about 55% of the C64 models being produced prior to 1987, haven’t we already established that most C64s by definition had to have been from this time?

I'm not from whatever country you come from where the C64 magically arrived in 1987 with spotless reliability and magical super aligned disk drives! We didn’t have your 20:1 64C to C64 sales over in Commodore’s home turf.

 

I have never had quality problems with the c64, and never heard anyone having quality problems with commodore products. and this is not a bullshit. you can stop with this now. oh and I got my 64 in 86.

 

I’m sure a lot of us back in the 1980s whished we could have simply waved a magic Oswald post over our machines rather than return them.

[Oswald]

It was just a comment. Comparing these machines in emulating Speeccy in real speed (with virtual C64 non existing emulator)... Guess which machine is faster.

 

if both machines are emulating speccy in real speed, then they are equally fast.

No, 1.77Mhz - 1MHz issue

 

No, you wrote "Comparing these machines in emulating Speeccy in real speed", well then they are equal speed, my friend.

[Bryan]

*Sigh*

Since the best sales figures available show about 55% of the C64 models being produced prior to 1987, haven’t we already established that most C64s by definition had to have been from this time?

I'm not from whatever country you come from where the C64 magically arrived in 1987 with spotless reliability and magical super aligned disk drives! We didn’t have your 20:1 64C to C64 sales over in Commodore’s home turf.

I remember there being 2 distinct waves of 8-bit activity. In the US in the early 80's I knew many people who had either an Atari, an Apple II, or something else (TRS-80, TI99, etc..). When the 64 hit in 82, within a year or two it seemed like everyone had one. After the ST and Amiga came out and and the 8-bit scene started dying off in the US, it seemed like it got a 2nd life overseas with all kinds of imported 8-bit magazines appearing on the stands. I didn't pay too much attention to it because I was all wrapped up in 16-bit stuff, but I think the 64's popularity was on the decline here while it was rising elsewhere.

[Gury]

you atarians. the happy times you will play cpc, apple, bbc and speccy games on the a8 they are near!

And C64

 

yeah, cant wait to see the c64 emulation, which will not be a "null speed, static game", but an awesome demonstration of speed and colors and sound

Not possible. Even if C64 emulation of ZX Spectrum BASIC interpreter is done, it would be twice as slow as emulating pure machine language Speccy games on A8 emulator.

[Oswald]

I’m sure a lot of us back in the 1980s whished we could have simply waved a magic Oswald post over our machines rather than return them.

 

on the contrary I not whish I had some fastrobplus magic post over our machines.

[FastRobPlus]

Since the best sales figures available show about 55% of the C64 models being produced prior to 1987, haven’t we already established that most C64s by definition had to have been from this time?

... in 1986 the C64 just started to start.

 

Well perhaps you could write for Ars Technica since you seem to know more than they do!

[Fröhn]

No, 1.77Mhz - 1MHz issue

Which doesn't mean as much as you think. 1.77 MHz of A8 are 20-50% faster than the 0.985 MHz of the C64 due to the heavy A8 DMA load. In case of 256x192 hires (speccy res) it is ~40%. The raw numbers don't tell as much as you think.

[Oswald]

you atarians. the happy times you will play cpc, apple, bbc and speccy games on the a8 they are near!

And C64

 

yeah, cant wait to see the c64 emulation, which will not be a "null speed, static game", but an awesome demonstration of speed and colors and sound

Not possible. Even if C64 emulation of ZX Spectrum BASIC interpreter is done, it would be twice as slow as emulating pure machine language Speccy games on A8 emulator.

 

you should brush up your english, I thought you are talking about emulating the c64 on a8... but it was something else..

[Gury]

Jesus

[Oswald]

When the 64 hit in 82, within a year or two it seemed like everyone had one. After the ST and Amiga came out and and the 8-bit scene started dying off in the US, it seemed like it got a 2nd life overseas with all kinds of imported 8-bit magazines appearing on the stands. I didn't pay too much attention to it because I was all wrapped up in 16-bit stuff, but I think the 64's popularity was on the decline here while it was rising elsewhere.

 

accurate. in europe many ppl used 8bit machines into the mid 90s! as a main machine. including me.. well if I dont count the a1200.. I got my first pc past ~2000

[Fröhn]

... in 1986 the C64 just started to start.

Well perhaps you could write for Ars Technica since you seem to know more than they do!

I know that the C64 sold 18 million times (+4 million C128s) and in 1986 only a fraction of that had been sold. There was also other factors which pushed C64 sales again and again, for example the end of the cold war which made lot's of people from the ex east block buy C64s too (GDR etc). Oswald is one example

[Gury]

I have to go out of this incredible never ending debate now, maintaining my online Atari database library

[twh/f2]

only demo version of Space Harrier needs 128K RAM, current cart version needs 64K RAM. (Cart is 1MB though!)

 

 

wow. and a8 people are comparing THAT to a c64 game which is 22 yrs old, and has all levels and everything in 64k....

 

Oswald,

 

With your postings you reached a point far beyond of normal behavior. Don't you see that you start acting like a blind racist? You are projecting -hate- against people. WAKE UP. What's the matter man? Stop acting like pathetic little kid! Back in school I saw students beaten up because of computer wars. Do I need to emphasize parallels to people with a different religion? Is that what you are in the mood for? Do you want to "mix up some of these lame Atari loosers"?

 

I think we once met at the Breakpoint when you guys released the Desert Dreams demo. I know that you can be a party guy, without demonstrating again and again your arrogance against a certain group of people. I was about to visit you guys at the Árok Party in Budapest next year (like our CZ friends did this year). With all your statements here, should I be now afraid to run into a C64 gang which is ready to beat me up somewhere in the corner?? Do you see how ridiculous all this became?

 

sorry but I had to say that. All this is questioning my big passion of oldksool computing and the people in the scene ;-(

 

grtx,

\twh

[Bryan]

When the 64 hit in 82, within a year or two it seemed like everyone had one. After the ST and Amiga came out and and the 8-bit scene started dying off in the US, it seemed like it got a 2nd life overseas with all kinds of imported 8-bit magazines appearing on the stands. I didn't pay too much attention to it because I was all wrapped up in 16-bit stuff, but I think the 64's popularity was on the decline here while it was rising elsewhere.

 

accurate. in europe many ppl used 8bit machines into the mid 90s! as a main machine. including me.. well if I dont count the a1200.. I got my first pc past ~2000

Wow, it's nice to agree. (actually we both agree on a lot in this thread)

 

The main feeling in the US was that technology was the future and you always needed to be upgrading so you didn't get left behind. If you were using an 8-bit computer in the US in 1986, it usually wasn't by choice. I think the UK and Europe took a much more relaxed attitude toward technology.

[FastRobPlus]

*Sigh*

Since the best sales figures available show about 55% of the C64 models being produced prior to 1987, haven’t we already established that most C64s by definition had to have been from this time?

I'm not from whatever country you come from where the C64 magically arrived in 1987 with spotless reliability and magical super aligned disk drives! We didn’t have your 20:1 64C to C64 sales over in Commodore’s home turf.

I remember there being 2 distinct waves of 8-bit activity. In the US in the early 80's I knew many people who had either an Atari, an Apple II, or something else (TRS-80, TI99, etc..). When the 64 hit in 82, within a year or two it seemed like everyone had one. After the ST and Amiga came out and and the 8-bit scene started dying off in the US, it seemed like it got a 2nd life overseas with all kinds of imported 8-bit magazines appearing on the stands. I didn't pay too much attention to it because I was all wrapped up in 16-bit stuff, but I think the 64's popularity was on the decline here while it was rising elsewhere.

 

You remember right. And the first wave sold about 55% of the units (though Holiday 1986) and the second wave carried the remaining 45%, including all 64C , with a massive drop-off in production from 1989 onward and through Commodores insolvency in late '93. Near the end, they were making something like 200k per year.

 

I can see where the 64 guys come up with those oddball notions about 64C outselling C64 20:1, the system being bullet-proof, etc., but that was not the reality for the large regions where the C64 had been the computer of the early 1980s.

 

Remembering your childhood and making your own personal memories into your reality is quite different than reading all you can - good and bad, researching current and archived industry news, and building an end to end snapshot of the Commodore 64's life from a channel operations, manufacturing and distributed cost margin and worldwide end user experience. Those are the things I love to study. Not just with the C64, but all consumer electronics.

 

It does not help or add value to any thread to hear “when I was a kid we all had computer X and all of us loved this and hated this and this was X and it was black and white and you can’t argue because I remember this and it was absolutely definitely true worldwide 'cause I say so 'till i'm blue in the face! Smiley! LOL! Neener-neener!”

[Oswald]

only demo version of Space Harrier needs 128K RAM, current cart version needs 64K RAM. (Cart is 1MB though!)

 

 

wow. and a8 people are comparing THAT to a c64 game which is 22 yrs old, and has all levels and everything in 64k....

 

Oswald,

 

With your postings you reached a point far beyond of normal behavior. Don't you see that you start acting like a blind racist? You are projecting -hate- against people. WAKE UP. What's the matter man? Stop acting like pathetic little kid! Back in school I saw students beaten up because of computer wars. Do I need to emphasize parallels to people with a different religion? Is that what you are in the mood for? Do you want to "mix up some of these lame Atari loosers"?

 

I think we once met at the Breakpoint when you guys released the Desert Dreams demo. I know that you can be a party guy, without demonstrating again and again your arrogance against a certain group of people. I was about to visit you guys at the Árok Party in Budapest next year (like our CZ friends did this year). With all your statements here, should I be now afraid to run into a C64 gang which is ready to beat me up somewhere in the corner?? Do you see how ridiculous all this became?

 

sorry but I had to say that. All this is questioning my big passion of oldksool computing and the people in the scene ;-(

 

grtx,

\twh

 

huh, you shouldnt take this so seriously. for me this is just replaying the missing my computer is better than yours times. in hungary everony had a c64 so I didnt have these funny arguments .)

 

and really, I dont use swearwods, etc anything, just arguing like ppl do on any forum. dont exaggerate this beyond belief please.

[Oswald]

The main feeling in the US was that technology was the future and you always needed to be upgrading so you didn't get left behind. If you were using an 8-bit computer in the US in 1986, it usually wasn't by choice. I think the UK and Europe took a much more relaxed attitude toward technology.

 

nope its was economy basically. that was what people could afford. look at the UK, speccy being the best selling computer, and UK wasnt as piss poor as the countrys being drowned by the russians in their "communist block".... in hungary the first pcs appeared in the early 90s. I remember using XT's in 90-~91 and thinking how horrible they are... now I am owning "one of those" crap. bleh in hungary c64s were used everywhere, factorys, scientific research, everything, pcs became spread during early mid 90s.

[Bryan]

The main feeling in the US was that technology was the future and you always needed to be upgrading so you didn't get left behind. If you were using an 8-bit computer in the US in 1986, it usually wasn't by choice. I think the UK and Europe took a much more relaxed attitude toward technology.

 

nope its was economy basically. that was what people could afford. look at the UK, speccy being the best selling computer, and UK wasnt as piss poor as the countrys being drowned by the russians in their "communist block".... in hungary the first pcs appeared in the early 90s. I remember using XT's in 90-~91 and thinking how horrible they are... now I am owning "one of those" crap. bleh in hungary c64s were used everywhere, factorys, scientific research, everything, pcs became spread during early mid 90s.

 

I thought about that after I posted. The Atari 800 system was about $700 when I first got it, and the 1040ST was probably around $1100. It was expensive, but not impossible to get one (I just had to beg my dad). That's probably a bit more disposable income than was common in many parts of the world, though.

 

It still amazes me to see computers out on the curb here. I never thought I'd see the day when a computer was worth nothing.

[FastRobPlus]

... in 1986 the C64 just started to start.

Well perhaps you could write for Ars Technica since you seem to know more than they do!

I know that the C64 sold 18 million times (+4 million C128s) and in 1986 only a fraction of that had been sold. There was also other factors which pushed C64 sales again and again, for example the end of the cold war which made lot's of people from the ex east block buy C64s too (GDR etc). Oswald is one example

 

The 18 million comes from a widely distributed report compiled from a 1993 Commodore quarterly finncial report and calldown sesison. Based on that report, Commodore was able to produce 2.2 million units on thier line per year begining in 1984, and that their line yeild was about 85% and they recovered about 6% from thier boneyard. If you do the quick napkin math that means they would have been at 8 million minimum by 1986.

We know they lost production capacity in 1987 becuse they moved some lines to the Commodore Amiga 500 had been making C64, and they retooled for the 64C which caused some production downtime. If you go by this report, they would have produced about 10.5 millon of thier units prior to Holiday 1986, and the remaining 7-and-change million after this. It's that 7 million that you remember as being "most of the Commodores ever made"

 

Edit; Here's a puplic-viewable report compiled by some individual which has some of the data. Again, notice around 55-60% of the units being produced through 1986...

Edited December 9, 2008 by FastRobPlus

[Albert]

and really, I dont use swearwods, etc anything, just arguing like ppl do on any forum. dont exaggerate this beyond belief please.

Seriously? You have sworn quite a bit in this thread. I just went through and counted 12 separate posts in this thread where you used "fuck", "shit", or "bullshit" in your post.

 

Let's get back to the original topic of discussion, which was "Does anybody have any views on where any titles were launched on both Atari and Commodore - and the Atari version is the better of the two?" If anyone wants to take this discussion outside of that scope, please start a separate thread. I'm about to start booting people out of the 8-bit forum.

 

..Al

[Fröhn]

The 18 million comes from a widely distributed report compiled from a 1993 Commodore quarterly finncial report and calldown sesison. Based on that report, Commodore was able to produce 2.2 million units on thier line per year begining in 1984, and that thier line yeild was about 85% and they recovered about 6% from thier boneyard. If you do the quick napkin math that means they would have been at 8 million minimum by 1986.

We know they lost production capacity in 1987 becuse they moved some lines to the Commodore Amiga 500 had been making C64, and they retooled for the 64C which caused some production downtime. If you go by this report, they would have produced about 10.5 millon of thier units prior to Holiday 1986, and the remaining 7-and-change million after this.

European ebay is full of C64Cs and its hard to get a brown breadbox C64. I for example own 18 C64C, but had a really hard time to find a single C64A unit. In fact there was a point of time where you could find C64C everywhere, even lying around in the streets because someone threw them away when they bought an Amiga.

 

And Amiga didn't sell well before 1989. It needed the A500 to sell, before 1989 the software (games) on Amiga was a bad joke.

[Artlover]

I'm not sure how some of you 64 guys can claim "It's subjective." It isn't.

I'm not sure how some of you A8 guys can claim "It's not subjective." It is.

 

You think that huge, harshly angular, heavy, simmilar color computer looks better then a C64. Good for you. It's your subjective preference and it's only true for you.

 

If it was a fact, like the sun rises in the east, then everyone would aggree. But since what I like is determined by what I like according to my standards for judging what I like, what I like is subjectively my opinion. Just as yours is.

 

Same applies to everything else that is a matter of personal preference, like keyboard feel. How a keyboard feels to me is how it feels to me and what kind of feel I want is the kind of feel I want. It's no surprize that my opinion of what makes a good feeling keyboard to me are going to be different then yours. That I like a keyboard with a different feel then you do proves nothing besides we like different feeling keyboards, not that one is better then the other. As a side note to this issue in particular, this is even a more futile comparison to make regarding the 800XL series since they used different keyboards along the way that were made differently and felt different. Even some of the A8's (in this very thread) have said some XL keyboards feel better/worse then other XL's. Ain't that a kick in the coin pouch - there isn't even a consensus amung A8's that the 800XL keyboard is better compared to itself!

 

 

NOT including XL series:

Atari people think the 800 looks and feels better then the C64

CBM people think the C64 looks and feels better then the 800

 

It a matter of preference, not of fact.

[Artlover]

Let's get back to the original topic of discussion, which was "Does anybody have any views on where any titles were launched on both Atari and Commodore - and the Atari version is the better of the two?"

Would be nice.

 

I PM'ed the OP for official clarification on the "Break-It" comparisons. Hopefully, he'll chime in on that.

[Bryan]

European ebay is full of C64Cs and its hard to get a brown breadbox C64. I for example own 18 C64C, but had a really hard time to find a single C64A unit. In fact there was a point of time where you could find C64C everywhere, even lying around in the streets because someone threw them away when they bought an Amiga.

Now go to www.ebay.com and search for Commodore 64. You'll see almost nothing but brown units.