Commodore 64 vs Atari 800 Xl

[DimensionX]

5 colors?

is that 2bpp tiles, 4 colors across most of the screen, with 1 bit selecting an alternate color for some of the tiles?

was it 1byte per tile (7bits tile index, with the upper bit selecting the alternate color) or what

 

It's the latter, one byte per character with 7 bits selecting the actual definition (so only 128 characters in a font compared to 256 on the C64) and the top bit selects one of two playfield colours for the %11 bit pair. It has it's pluses and minuses, the DMA fetch for each character line is... [ahem] aggresive.

 

so the C64 clearly has a lot more data per screen, and used very intelligently. More character/sprite map attribute data is infinitely preferable to raster effects.

Hence the better graphics.

 

I'm guessing A8 games mess around re-pointing the character definitions alot? must be alot of options for trickery there.

 

Not to be rude, but...

 

I can't be honest and say that C64 has better graphics then Atari 800. No way. I compared the same games on both machines several times. The colours are so much better in the Atari version, while C64 has quite cold colours Atari produces a warm spread of colours that makes the screen much more easy to look at. Don't thrust me, try it yourself on VICE and WinAtari800 to see what i mean. There's more difference that i thought between C64 and Atari. Almost all games look samish on C64 thanks to the limited colour palette. You can tell within 2 sec it's a C64 game because C64 suffers from the same syndrome as ZX Spectrum who also have a very limited colour palette.

 

If i look at the screens that TMR posted, i can tell within 1 sec it's a C64 game, because of the colours. I think that you can do that too.

Edited April 23, 2010 by DimensionX

[DimensionX]

Hmmm, Can we make it a tie?

 

Atari is better in the colour area because of a much larger palette and some great hardware modes.

 

C64 is better at handling sprites

 

1-1?

[ceti331]

Not to be rude, but...

 

I can't be honest and say that C64 has better graphics then Atari 800. No way. I compared the same games on both machines several times.

 

Ok, so

Show me screenshots (or mockup proof of concept) of Atari800 R-Type, Salamander. Better still, youtube vids. Games MOVE.

multiplatform titles designed to be ported between different 8bitmachines dont count

 

I conceed: the Atari800 might be able to display superior STATIC images, or 'demos'

but until I see the above, I will continue to beleive the C64 is the superior *games* machine.

 

The clear advantage is in the data encoding per screen. One fixed 16 color palette, with many independant 3 color elements, with some shared+unique colors.

The tradeoff is the shared 16color palette, plus many different 4bit color selectors moveable around the screen more freely than the raster scanline changes of the a800.

 

Hmmm, Can we make it a tie?

I'll reserve judgement till I see an R-Type mockup

 

Where i'll agree with you: I think i'd definitely have greatly enjoyed an atari 8bit at the time, given the way I enjoy computers.

Edited April 23, 2010 by ceti331

[DimensionX]

Not to be rude, but...

 

I can't be honest and say that C64 has better graphics then Atari 800. No way. I compared the same games on both machines several times.

 

Ok.

 

Show me screenshots (or mockup proof of concept) of Atari800 R-Type, Salamander, Armalyte.

 

I conceed: the Atari800 might be able to display superior STATIC images, or 'demos'

but until I see the above, I will continue to beleive the C64 is the superior *games* machine.

 

The clear advantage is in the data encoding per screen. One fixed 16 color palette, with many independant 3 color elements, with some shared+unique colors

 

None of those games were made for Atari 800, but if i find some remake i will post at screenshot of it.

 

Those static screens that you see in the forum, is moving in reality. Yes, all those colours is animated in the emulator.

 

There is only one more computer who can produce that type of clear colours, Amiga.

Edited April 23, 2010 by DimensionX

[ceti331]

Atari is better in the colour area because of a much larger palette and some great hardware modes.

 

Another 'challenge' i'd be curious to see results of

arbitrary image converter - take generic modern bitmap file, and convert to best possible still image graphics mode on the respective machines.

(so i'm guessing raster based paletizer on the A800, and tile based palletizer on the C64).

compare results.

[ceti331]

There is only one more computer who can produce that type of clear colours, Amiga.

 

Comparing "bang per bit" (bang per buck)

i would say the C64 is one of the best machines ever.

 

Its no good having all those colours if you can't use them well - halftoning with the c64 palette is IMO just as usefull as having the wider a800 h/w palette.

a "photo to tilemap" vs "photo to scanline-palettized" converter will 'prove' this

 

the C64 is a more impressive use of 8bits than the Amiga is of 16bits.

 

other designs got more out of similar memory & bandwidths. A scaled up "16bit C64" would have wiped the floor with the Amiga as a games machine.

[the amiga was a truly amazing home-COMPUTER though]

Edited April 23, 2010 by ceti331

[DimensionX]

There is only one more computer who can produce that type of clear colours, Amiga.

 

Comparing "bang per bit" (bang per buck)

i would say the C64 is one of the best machines ever.

 

Its no good having all those colours if you can't use them well - halftoning with the c64 palette is IMO just as usefull as having the wider a800 h/w palette.

a "photo to tilemap" converter will 'prove' this

 

the C64 is a more impressive use of 8bits than the Amiga is of 16bits.

 

other designs got more out of similar memory & bandwidths.

[the amiga was a truly amazing home-COMPUTER though.. probably the best ever]

 

It was possible to paint with 256 colours at the same time on Atari already 1986, thanks to Red Rat's Technicolor Dream.

 

And yes, C64 was a stunning computer.

 

Ooops, the time is almost midnight, i'll better log out.

 

Always a pleasure talking to retro people.

Edited April 23, 2010 by DimensionX

[TMR]

I'm speaking of "colours" and the quality of them. The games looked like that on Atari already 1982 because of the hardware. When C64 had a single colour Atari used the rainbow effekt used in sooo many games. Check out the game "Dimension X" for Atari 800 via AtariWin800 to see what i mean. Impossible to do such thing on C64.

 

And as i've already said repeatedly, just colours don't equate to the entire graphical experience; how you can use those colours is just as important and the C64 is more able on that front, that's why games like Stormlord look like this...

 

 

...and 50FPS half colour clock scrolling, whilst Hawkmoon (which uses graphics stolen from Stormlord and Hawkeye on the C64) looks like this...

 

 

...and is flick screen.

 

I thrust you when you say it's impossible to do that on an Atari. But the Atari games looked stunning already at 1983.

 

Just sticking a rainbow through one of the playfield colours doesn't automatically make a game look "stunning", if that were true anybody could write "stunning" A8 games just by throwing any old junk up and locking up the CPU for a couple of hundred scanlines. It's not even viable to do that in many circumstances - even if there were enough processor time to do it, trying to rainbow split something like Zybex would affect all the sprites as well and would look rubbish.

[DimensionX]

I'm speaking of "colours" and the quality of them. The games looked like that on Atari already 1982 because of the hardware. When C64 had a single colour Atari used the rainbow effekt used in sooo many games. Check out the game "Dimension X" for Atari 800 via AtariWin800 to see what i mean. Impossible to do such thing on C64.

 

And as i've already said repeatedly, just colours don't equate to the entire graphical experience; how you can use those colours is just as important and the C64 is more able on that front, that's why games like Stormlord look like this...

 

 

...and 50FPS half colour clock scrolling, whilst Hawkmoon (which uses graphics stolen from Stormlord and Hawkeye on the C64) looks like this...

 

 

...and is flick screen.

 

I thrust you when you say it's impossible to do that on an Atari. But the Atari games looked stunning already at 1983.

 

Just sticking a rainbow through one of the playfield colours doesn't automatically make a game look "stunning", if that were true anybody could write "stunning" A8 games just by throwing any old junk up and locking up the CPU for a couple of hundred scanlines. It's not even viable to do that in many circumstances - even if there were enough processor time to do it, trying to rainbow split something like Zybex would affect all the sprites as well and would look rubbish.

 

Funny that you mention that. ZX Spectrum won many reviews, because "lack of colour". The machines limits was in many cases it's strength.

 

The spectrum version looked a lot cleaner because lack of colours and a higher resolution. The colour clashing problem forced the programmers to make the games in monochrome with a colourful status display instead.

 

Goodnight.

[TMR]

Funny that you mention that. ZX Spectrum won many reviews, because "lack of colour". The machines limits was in many cases it's strength.

 

The Spectrum version of Stormlord was pushing a lot of colour around considering what else was happening - and it's got more there than Hawkmoon as well along with the higher resolution.

 

The spectrum version looked a lot cleaner because lack of colours and a higher resolution. The colour clashing problem forced the programmers to make the games in monochrome with a colourful status display instead.

 

And there's that "cleaner" rubbish again...

[ceti331]

 

 

this is a stunning conversion, considering its not designed around c64 restrictions

an arcade down-port is the best judgement for one machine vs another, IMO

 

Doesn't matter that its only 16 colors.

Its clearly MUCH better than the A8 at getting the right colour in the right place, when asked to do anything other than graduated background sky or shiny text

 

from way of the pixel:-

 

Interesting stuff

Edited April 24, 2010 by ceti331

[DimensionX]

The game Stealth from Broderbound.

 

C64 version on top

 

Here's a typical exempel of how gradiant colours often was used in the Atari version of the game that C64 never could produce. In the C64 version there's a set of different colours instead. Atari's colour capacity was often used to enhance the games atmosphere.

 

 

The Game H.E.R.O from Activision. C64 version is built on the Colecovision version of the game. But look at the colours and compare it to the Atari version of the game. Flip between the two for a fast comparison. The colour in the Atari version is so more rich and vivid even if the Atari version do not use more colours.

 

C64 version

 

PNG, 652x836px, 80 KB (0.08 MB)

 

Atari verson

 

PNG, 684x996px, 59 KB (0.06 MB)

 

Between us, most colours in the limited C64 palette was okey, except brown, that really looks aweful. They could have been choosing a lighter brown nuance for C64's palette.

 

You often regocgnize the games in no time because of the aweful brown.

Edited April 24, 2010 by DimensionX

[DimensionX]

 

And there's that "cleaner" rubbish again...

 

Is that so?

 

Which version do you think look best?

 

C64 version to the left, or ZX Spectrum version to the right?

 

 

 

 

[TMR]

 

this is a stunning conversion, considering its not designed around c64 restrictions

an arcade down-port is the best judgement for one machine vs another, IMO

 

Actually... as conversions go, R-Type on the C64 isn't a particularly good one - it's not bad as a game in it's own right, but because it was built in about six weeks, a lot of the set pieces like the circle of guns on level 1 don't look as good as they could have.

 

And just for DimensionX's benefit, at least half of those screenshots are impossible on the A8.

[TMR]

 

And there's that "cleaner" rubbish again...

 

Is that so?

 

Which version do you think look best?

 

i think the ones with the better drawn graphics look best and that's been my entire bloody point. The choice of colours has nothing to do with why most of those screenshots look better on the Spectrum (i prefer Cybernoid on the C64 personally but that's personal taste for you) and it's all about the actual definitions of the graphics and how the colours are used. A lot of those "cleaner colours" on the Spectrum are selected as concessions rather than artistic choices, since it's not possible to mix two colours of the same BRIGHTness in a single attribute cell, if you're already using dark yellow for foreground it's not possible to select light red as background and you have to go with the dark version.

 

The only thing preventing the C64 copying those Spectrum graphics pixel for pixel is specific colours in the palette (the pixels would be right, the colours changed out) - the A8 wouldn't be able to replicate most of what is there.

[DimensionX]

i think the ones with the better drawn graphics look best and that's been my entire bloody point. The choice of colours has nothing to do with why most of those screenshots look better on the Spectrum (i prefer Cybernoid on the C64 personally but that's personal taste for you) and it's all about the actual definitions of the graphics and how the colours are used. A lot of those "cleaner colours" on the Spectrum are selected as concessions rather than artistic choices, since it's not possible to mix two colours of the same BRIGHTness in a single attribute cell, if you're already using dark yellow for foreground it's not possible to select light red as background and you have to go with the dark version.

 

The only thing preventing the C64 copying those Spectrum graphics pixel for pixel is specific colours in the palette (the pixels would be right, the colours changed out) - the A8 wouldn't be able to replicate most of what is there.

 

ZX Spectrum almost always uses a higher resolution too because lack of different graphic modes, then it uses the bright command to get more colours on screen. Everything you see is in 256*192 pixels while the C64 version often use a much lower resolution. You can easily see that on the zig zag lines in the C64 versions of these games. To reach spectrums resolution you will have to get rid of some colours. That's why both C64 and Atari lost some colours when trying to reproduce some of the spectrum games like Head over Heels for exemple. Resolution was more importand then colours. Head Over Heels is completly in monochrome on Atari 800 using the highest resolution.

 

PNG, 684x996px, 67 KB (0.07 MB)

Edited April 24, 2010 by DimensionX

[Atarigmr]

The c64 in hires bitmap mode is the best of the three computers colour use wise. The A8 hires mode is completely monochrome unless sprites are used dor some touches of different color here and there(not that freely). The spectrum can only mix in the same 8x8 cell two colours of the same brightness(TMR already adressed this above), the C64 with its 320x200 pixels can used any of two of it's 16 colours in a 8x8 cell. So even comparing the c64 and the spectrum using this mode, the c64 has two advantages, more resolution, 320x200 vs 256,192, and can use more colour combinations per 8x8 cell . Better not compare the c64 and A8 on hires bitmap mode.

 

DimensonX without wanting to be rude, I think or your are completly biased against the c64 or you don't know what you are taking about. Number of Colours in the palette is not all, it's how they can be used.

 

Just in case I feel the need to clarify, I own all these three computers and I am fond of all of them.

[DimensionX]

The c64 in hires bitmap mode is the best of the three computers colour use wise. The A8 hires mode is completely monochrome unless sprites are used dor some touches of different color here and there(not that freely). The spectrum can only mix in the same 8x8 cell two colours of the same brightness(TMR already adressed this above), the C64 with its 320x200 pixels can used any of two of it's 16 colours in a 8x8 cell. So even comparing the c64 and the spectrum using this mode, the c64 has two advantages, more resolution, 320x200 vs 256,192, and can use more colour combinations per 8x8 cell . Better not compare the c64 and A8 on hires bitmap mode.

 

DimensonX without wanting to be rude, I think or your are completly biased against the c64 or you don't know what you are taking about. Number of Colours in the palette is not all, it's how they can be used.

 

Just in case I feel the need to clarify, I own all these three computers and I am fond of all of them.

 

Agree, it's how to use them, and the quality of them, and the number of them. Alternate Reality.

 

C64 version

 

PNG, 652x1048px, 83 KB (0.08 MB)

 

Atari version

 

PNG, 684x744px, 61 KB (0.06 MB)

 

I like all three computers too, but it's no question about that Atari was the best computer in the colour area.

[Atarigmr]

Rastercolour bars <> free colour use.

 

The c64 can have reproduce all those spectrum screens even if with different colours and even can have more colour combinations per attribute cell. The A8 can't not even come close.

 

If you want me to say that the A8 has a much bigger palette and can have nice rainbow effects, you have it, I didn't deny it anyway.

[DimensionX]

Rastercolour bars <> free colour use.

 

The c64 can have reproduce all those spectrum screens even if with different colours and even can have more colour combinations per attribute cell. The A8 can't not even come close.

 

If you want me to say that the A8 has a much bigger palette and can have nice rainbow effects, you have it, I didn't deny it anyway.

 

A sad thing that we didn't see any older commercial games doing that then?

 

Atari 800 did it all the time.

 

And you say that i'm biased?

 

To make a game look like that on C64 is to dream because Atari has much clearer colours.

 

Not even the C64 demos looks anything like that.

 

Amiga is the only computer who could produce colours like that too.

Edited April 24, 2010 by DimensionX

[Atarigmr]

Rastercolour bars <> free colour use.

 

The c64 can have reproduce all those spectrum screens even if with different colours and even can have more colour combinations per attribute cell. The A8 can't not even come close.

 

If you want me to say that the A8 has a much bigger palette and can have nice rainbow effects, you have it, I didn't deny it anyway.

 

A sad thing that we didn't see any older commercial games doing that then?

 

Atari 800 did it all the time.

 

And you say that i'm biased?

 

To make a game look like that on C64 is to dream because Atari has much clearer colours.

 

Not even the C64 demos looks anything like that.

 

You are judging the A8 better just because of still screens or games using those rasterbars, and that subjective parameter of yours "clear colours". Better not mention dreams... there would be possible to produce a huge list of c64 games that it would be utter utopical to think they can be produced for the A8.

[DimensionX]

Rastercolour bars <> free colour use.

 

The c64 can have reproduce all those spectrum screens even if with different colours and even can have more colour combinations per attribute cell. The A8 can't not even come close.

 

If you want me to say that the A8 has a much bigger palette and can have nice rainbow effects, you have it, I didn't deny it anyway.

 

A sad thing that we didn't see any older commercial games doing that then?

 

Atari 800 did it all the time.

 

And you say that i'm biased?

 

To make a game look like that on C64 is to dream because Atari has much clearer colours.

 

Not even the C64 demos looks anything like that.

 

You are judging the A8 better just because of still screens or games using those rasterbars, and that subjective parameter of yours "clear colours". Better not mention dreams... there would be possible to produce a huge list of c64 games that it would be utter utopical to think they can be produced for the A8.

 

Nope because many games has moving colours that looks like that. Try Dimension X for exemple.

 

C64 handles sprites better?

 

Atari is the better computer for rich and clear colours?

 

A tie?

[Atarigmr]

No tie,

 

((sprites moving one at pixel resolution even in MCM) && (8 sprites either in MCM or Hires mode) && (Attributes either in char mode or bitmap mode) && (mix hires chars and MC chars in one mode) &&( 256 chars) && (half colour clock smooth scrolling) &&(16 colour palette)) != (more colours(either 128, 256, 512... 4096) when they cannot be placed freely in a bitmap or char mode).

 

Got it?

[DimensionX]

No tie,

 

((sprites moving one at pixel resolution even in MCM) && (8 sprites either in MCM or Hires mode) && (Attributes either in char mode or bitmap mode) && (mix hires chars and MC chars in one mode) &&( 256 chars) && (half colour clock smooth scrolling) &&(16 colour palette)) != (more colours(either 128, 256, 512... 4096) when they cannot be placed freely in a bitmap or char mode).

 

Got it?

 

Even if both computers just use 7 colours for a game, Atari has so much more rich and vivid colours. C64 can't even come close reproducing the colors found in the Atari versions. So i see no competition at all in the colour area, Atari is superior to both C64 and Spectrum an any other 8 bit computer in that area. Thanks to much bigger pallette to choose from and som special hardware modes.

 

Se my earlier screenshot of the game H.E.R.O for exemple.

 

C64 pales right away in the colour area.

 

I'm not talking "sprites" but "colours". And the quality of them.

Edited April 24, 2010 by DimensionX

[TMR]

ZX Spectrum almost always uses a higher resolution too because lack of different graphic modes, then it uses the bright command to get more colours on screen. Everything you see is in 256*192 pixels while the C64 version often use a much lower resolution. You can easily see that on the zig zag lines in the C64 versions of these games.

 

Please stop trying to bloody lecture me about how these machines work because, since i've developed and released games for all three, i sure as hell don't need the "how these work" speeches.

 

To reach spectrums resolution you will have to get rid of some colours. That's why both C64 and Atari lost some colours when trying to reproduce some of the spectrum games like Head over Heels for exemple.

 

The C64 doesn't have the same colours as the Spectrum so some have to be swapped over, but the amount of colours actually in use can remain the same because both machines have the same attribute-based mode when the C64 is in high res. For example...

 

 

...and the program version is here.

Edited April 24, 2010 by TMR