Commodore 64 vs Atari 800 Xl

[enthusi]

To contribute something to the general topic, maybe rather as 'in comparison to' than 'versus'.

With the advent of Assembloids for the all-superior 2600 it might be worth looking at the original home-computer version of Assembloids for the C64.

The concept started as the Flashgame Quartet before it was rewritten for the C64 as 'Assembloids':

The game was written in few weeks/months in 16 KB.

Code by me, Music be Conrad, Gfx by Illkke who also did the original Quartet.

 

Shortly after release we were approached by Xeen and sTring of Agenda who wished to port the game to the 800XE/XL for the ABBUC2013 contest.

So that game was written in a relatively short timescale as well:

Requiring 64 KB/GTIA.

 

Though we shared information on scoring/timing, the code was written from scratch.

Assembloids C64 won 2nd place at the yearly 16KB RGCD competition.

Assembloids XL/XE won 2nd place at the yearly ABBUC competition.

 

The Atariversion does some gfx mode tricks while the C64 version places the pipes in the border that usually doesnt contain gfx in games.

Personally I think both games are decent representatives of their systems. While the game mechanics are rather simple (no scrolling or even moving parts), each development team

spiced up the game here and there in their own way, like I used sprites to animate the gained points.

 

I like this example since both teams chose slightly different approaches and ended up with (in my opinion) decent games that are not 'the ueber games of the century' but fun games to play that actually got done

I use this opportunity to greet the Atari team (I still keep the Atari2600 with your signatures - and many more by now !

 

Btw, Assembloids was and currently is being ported to other plattforms as well. I just finished the 2600 version and work on a ZX spectrum version.

It is an interesting trivia, that an early demo of Assembloids 2600 made 2nd place as well at Sillyventure 2013.

Edited September 19, 2016 by enthusi

[popmilo]

Good idea to mention Assembloids! Excellent for comparison between platforms. Must say that although I'm c64 fanboy, music in Atari version is better imho.

 

And that 'trick' with mixing graphics modes in different scanlines is genius.

[Nebulon]

I've been going through a ton of games for both the C64 and the Atari 800/XL lately and I'm having a great time on both systems.

 

Whenever I switch between them, it's like stepping into a parallel universe. They're so similar and so different yet both offer an awesome gaming experience. The more I use both platforms, the harder it is to imagine a world without either one of them.

[enthusi]

Well said

[carlsson]

Yeah. I can enjoy both Yoomp! and Micro Hexagon (though not at the same time!), without worrying about C64 and Atari 8-bit coders getting headaches trying to port respective games.

[2600problems]

what about porting Rescue on fractulus to the C64?

[Bill Loguidice]

what about porting Rescue on fractulus to the C64?

 

What about it? It was a reasonable port that, like most ports, could probably have been done better in some ways.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Bill Loguidice

[zzip]

Removed my response. I hate when you click on the "new post" button and the first "new post" is from 2009

Edited June 16, 2017 by zzip

[emkay]

what about porting Rescue on fractulus to the C64?

???

 

ROF C64 is almost as old as the Atari Version.... but, after all speed optimizations it still is only half of Atari Version.

Could be interesting so have the Atari version "optimized" the same way.

[Ranger03]

I would love to see the Atari 800 Pull off Alien.

[Mauro Rodriguez]

The Antic / PM Sprite Engine Its Better In:

Static Images - 128 Colors in Rasta Images in 160x240 pixels with overscan 

Demoscene 

 

The VIC II Sprite Engine Its Better In

Games

 

The TED Graphics (C16/Cplus) has no Sprite Engine

But Is The Better Machine In Static Graphics with 128 Colors in real time

[Mercenary]

Elektro Glide is a good example of how great the Atari was in comparison to the C64. Not only how much better it looks overall, but also the sound. 

I never liked the SID sound chip. It's often nasal and farty sounding when doing music, and the sound effects generally aren't up there with POKEY either.

The C64s colour palette always looked dull compared to the vibrant colour pallete of the Atari as well. 

On the Wiki page for Dropzone, you'll see this quote from Archer Maclean...

"The [Commodore] 64 Dropzone is about 46k [kilobytes] long and consists of 15,000 lines of sparsely commented code with around 350 subroutines and around 3000 labels. Those who can reach Megastar status on the 64 should have had enough practice to attempt an Atari supervised Dropzone mission. The Atari, being the Porsche of home computers, is capable of running Dropzone 2.5 times faster than the 64 and can handle any amount of blobs on screen, even when you release a Strata Bomb. It is visually, sonically etc., identical and about 12K shorter. However, the 64 is still a respectable BMW316.^[5]"

You can see how the Atari was faster at handling games Rescue on Fractalus too. However, the C64 was cheaper and had better marketing than the Atari. But it wasn't the most capable.

 

Edited October 28, 2023 by Mercenary

[Bill Loguidice]

2 minutes ago, Mercenary said:

Elektro Glide shows off how great the Atari was in comparison to the C64. Not only how much better it looks, but also the sound. 

I never liked the SID sound chip. It's nasal and farty sounding. 
 

Yeah, it's definitely a poorly executed port on the C-64 and Amstrad. There's no doubt the Atari 8-bit series has severe limitations in comparison to the C-64 when it comes to certain types of games, but, when game types and implementations go in its favor, there's also no doubt that it can be graphically impressive. Sound implementations on each platform were typically at or near best-in-class across a broad range of content, but, when used right, the greater flexibility of the SID chip is definitely a big asset.

If given a choice, I rank the C-64 the best overall game playing 8-bit computer for its standard RAM, good color, excellent sound, sprite capabilities, and depth and breadth of library, but the Atari 8-bit is definitely in the top 3 or 5 depending upon the criteria (for me, I'd probably say top 3 as I don't have nostalgia for British computers, although I like to use them). Of course, just about every platform excels at something, particularly when games are made with its particular strengths and weaknesses in mind.

[Mercenary]

6 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Yeah, it's definitely a poorly executed port on the C-64 and Amstrad. There's no doubt the Atari 8-bit series has severe limitations in comparison to the C-64 when it comes to certain types of games, but, when game types and implementations go in its favor, there's also no doubt that it can be graphically impressive. Sound implementations on each platform were typically at or near best-in-class across a broad range of content, but, when used right, the greater flexibility of the SID chip is definitely a big asset.

If given a choice, I rank the C-64 the best overall game playing 8-bit computer for its standard RAM, good color, excellent sound, sprite capabilities, and depth and breadth of library, but the Atari 8-bit is definitely in the top 3 or 5 depending upon the criteria (for me, I'd probably say top 3 as I don't have nostalgia for British computers, although I like to use them). Of course, just about every platform excels at something, particularly when games are made with its particular strengths and weaknesses in mind.

For me, the graphics are superior on the Atari. In regards to the sound, I compared a lot of games tonight, and the sound on the Atari was better on every single one. Be it the music on Alternate Reality, the engine sound on Pole Position, the list goes on. 

I'll put a video together tomorrow comparing both machines. 

Edited October 28, 2023 by Mercenary

[Bill Loguidice]

3 minutes ago, Mercenary said:

For me, the graphics and sound are superior on the Atari. 

I'll put a video together tomorrow comparing both machines. 

Have fun with that. 

[Mercenary]

1 minute ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Have fun with that. 

I will. I enjoy doing videos. I made an Intellivison one recently. That was very good for a late 70s console. The recent homebrew of Super Mario Bros is outstanding for a system of that time.

Edited October 28, 2023 by Mercenary

[Bill Loguidice]

3 minutes ago, Mercenary said:

I will. I enjoy doing videos. I made an Intellivison one recently. That was very good for a late 70s console. The recent homebrew of Super Mario Bros is outstanding for a system of that time.

Yes, homebrews really make all of these old systems shine bright in many cases.

 

It's also easy to cherry pick the best of the best from each and every system. Again, they all have strengths that other systems can struggle matching, especially in the case of Atari 8-bit vs C-64. Ports rarely do the system or systems being ported to justice.

[Mercenary]

2 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Yes, homebrews really make all of these old systems shine bright in many cases.

 

It's also easy to cherry pick the best of the best from each and every system. Again, they all have strengths that other systems can struggle matching, especially in the case of Atari 8-bit vs C-64. Ports rarely do the system or systems being ported to justice.

I believe Elektro glide game out at the same time on the Amstrad, C64, and Atari, rather than being a port. A game that looks like that really pushes the limits of the 8 bits.

What stood out to me tonight, was the sound comparison on all the games in particular. 

 

[Bill Loguidice]

14 minutes ago, Mercenary said:

I believe Elektro glide game out at the same time on the Amstrad, C64, and Atari, rather than being a port. A game that looks like that really pushes the limits of the 8 bits.

What stood out to me tonight, was the sound comparison on all the games in particular. 

 

It's objectively terrible on the Amstrad and C-64. It's in no way a good example of what either platform is capable of. We can do the same in turn for great games on the C-64 or Amstrad that are terrible on the Atari 8-bit. Doesn't mean much in the overall comparison. 

 

Plenty of people like the Atari 8-bit POKEY sound. It's definitely right up there for 8-bit computers. The SID is objectively more versatile and it's probably number one for the most people in terms of 8-bit computers. There's great examples of compositions and usage for both, and terrible examples for both. Again, it's best to take these as a whole rather than cherry pick examples. 

[Mercenary]

1 hour ago, Bill Loguidice said:

It's objectively terrible on the Amstrad and C-64. It's in no way a good example of what either platform is capable of. We can do the same in turn for great games on the C-64 or Amstrad that are terrible on the Atari 8-bit. Doesn't mean much in the overall comparison. 

 

Plenty of people like the Atari 8-bit POKEY sound. It's definitely right up there for 8-bit computers. The SID is objectively more versatile and it's probably number one for the most people in terms of 8-bit computers. There's great examples of compositions and usage for both, and terrible examples for both. Again, it's best to take these as a whole rather than cherry pick examples. 

SID is nowhere near as versatile for sound effects as POKEY. Objectively, it also lacked the extra channel that POKEY had was sorely needed at times. You'll see what I mean when I upload the Electra glide comparison video  - as there's no engine sound on the C64 (I'll be comparing plenty of other games too). Many games suffered from SID having only three channels, and it was an ongoing issue for the C64  - either having to interrupt the music for sound effects (which I've never liked), or using only two channels for music. That's not cherry picking, it's in general.

I also dislike the nasal and farty sound SIDS makes when it comes to music (and sound effects). And it often sounds much the same to me.
 
To take it to a more extreme level, it's not cherry picking to say the ZX Spectrum - although unique when it comes to sound - isn't as versatile as either the Atari or the C64. Again, that's a general thing.

And sound aside, when you're talking about games such as Electra glide and Rescue on Fractalus, they're games that pushed the 8 bits to their limits, no matter which system it was. Same with Dropzone, another game which pushed those systems to their limits, as mentioned in the Archer Maclean quote above.

Most people probably base what they believe was best on what they had back in the day / nostalgia. The C64 sold more due to it being cheaper and heavier marketing. If the C64 had been given another channel to work with, then that in itself would've pushed the price of machine up. By how much, I can't say. But it wouldn't have had quite so much of a price edge over the Atari. 

 

 

Edited October 28, 2023 by Mercenary

[Lostdragon]

4 hours ago, Mercenary said:

I believe Elektro glide game out at the same time on the Amstrad, C64, and Atari, rather than being a port. A game that looks like that really pushes the limits of the 8 bits.

What stood out to me tonight, was the sound comparison on all the games in particular. 

 

The hardware guru's on here could detail it far better than I, but from an interview with the games coder, the game does seem written with the A8 specifically in mind and used a lot of 'tricks' to achieve it's results. 

 

 

https://dadgum.com/halcyon/BOOK/BILLYARD.HTM

 

[Mercenary]

6 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

The hardware guru's on here could detail it far better than I, but from an interview with the games coder, the game does seem written with the A8 specifically in mind and used a lot of 'tricks' to achieve it's results. 

 

 

https://dadgum.com/halcyon/BOOK/BILLYARD.HTM


 

 

It pushed the 8 bit systems to their limits. There's no denying which system handled it better. 

On a related note of system capabilities, regarding Dropzone, I found another quote from Archer Maclean earlier: "Squeezing the hardware in the Atari 800 to its limits and making it better than anything else then available. What was more amazing to me was the challenge of making it work on the less capable Commodore 64. It was a real nightmare implementation, but I did it."

Edited October 28, 2023 by Mercenary

[popmilo]

You're right about games like Dropzone and Elektraglide @Mercenary. In some ways they are better then their c64  version and I would say it's exactly like someone said - they were built around a8 strengths, so no wonder there.

 

I love atari 8bits, I code games or demos for them almost every day, and love how antic, gtia and fast 6502 make things like stunt car racer, rescue on fractalus or mercenary faster then on c64.

Imho it doesn't make any of those machines better than the other.

It's same as saying "Sam's journey is better than anything on atari, so c64 is better machine" isn't it ?

Talk about vibrant colors, soundtrack, sound effects, loooots of sprites, hires and multicolor combined etc...

 

You want dropzone like experience on c64, try Armalyte, IO, X-out...

For elektraglide, test Eliminator, Buggyboy, Turbocharge...

 

You like Mario game on intellivision ? Me too
Did you see super mario converted from nes to c64 ?

 

And for what those three channels and 1mhz cpu can produce without any help besides good coder, check this out:

Enjoy in your examination of all those games and please let us know when your videos come online.
Cheers !

 

[Mercenary]

45 minutes ago, popmilo said:

You're right about games like Dropzone and Elektraglide @Mercenary. In some ways they are better then their c64  version and I would say it's exactly like someone said - they were built around a8 strengths, so no wonder there.

 

I love atari 8bits, I code games or demos for them almost every day, and love how antic, gtia and fast 6502 make things like stunt car racer, rescue on fractalus or mercenary faster then on c64.

Imho it doesn't make any of those machines better than the other.

It's same as saying "Sam's journey is better than anything on atari, so c64 is better machine" isn't it ?

Talk about vibrant colors, soundtrack, sound effects, loooots of sprites, hires and multicolor combined etc...

 

You want dropzone like experience on c64, try Armalyte, IO, X-out...

For elektraglide, test Eliminator, Buggyboy, Turbocharge...

 

You like Mario game on intellivision ? Me too
Did you see super mario converted from nes to c64 ?

 

And for what those three channels and 1mhz cpu can produce without any help besides good coder, check this out:

Enjoy in your examination of all those games and please let us know when your videos come online.
Cheers !

 

You wrote, "It's same as saying "Sam's journey is better than anything on atari, so c64 is better machine" isn't it ?!

No, because difference with the games I mentioned is that they're games that shift graphics around in a way that pushes 8-bit systems to their limits. 

The graphics are pretty good for the C64 on the first game. But I don't see that as particularly ground-breaking. Just a well programmed platformer. The main issue for me is the sound is typical farty sounding C64 music to my ears. I find it hard going to listen to. It ruins it.

After seeing the Intellivision  - a 70s console - version of Super Mario Bros , it's hard to be impressed by an 80s computer performing the same game.

The final video is sampling. There's videos of the Atari 8 bit doing the same thing. 

Eliminator, Buggyboy, and Turbocharge aren't shifting graphics around anywhere near as fast as Electra Glide. The colours on them also look dull. That's another issue I have with the C64 in general, as well as the sound.

I'll do the video later. 

Edited October 28, 2023 by Mercenary

[Lostdragon]

4 hours ago, Mercenary said:

It pushed the 8 bit systems to their limits. There's no denying which system handled it better. 

On a related note of system capabilities, regarding Dropzone, I found another quote from Archer Maclean earlier: "Squeezing the hardware in the Atari 800 to its limits and making it better than anything else then available. What was more amazing to me was the challenge of making it work on the less capable Commodore 64. It was a real nightmare implementation, but I did it."

Rescue on Fractalus and Madtertronic's Ninja, we're another 2 i got far more out of on my 800 XL than i did the C64. 

 

The former, maybe the slower speed on the C64 had a fundamental effect, the later? I just appreciated the more vibrant colours. 

 

 

I think I was just extremely fortunate in being able to own both systems as a youth, convincing my folks to get a C64 after software dried up on the A8, was no easy task and I am eternally grateful to them for letting me get both within such a short time. 

 

To them, both were pretty much the same system, where as going from the 2600 to a proper computer, was an easy sell..