Atari 8bit is superior to the ST

[atariksi]

1. CPU Freq 1.78979Mhz

2. Rock solid timing and more accurate (No indeterminate signals to throw off cycle-exactness)

3. Easy overscanning

4. LMS -- easy to access more video memory, mirror images, repeat scanlines, etc.

5. VScroll/HScroll on per scanline basis (8-dir scrolling windows)

6. More priorities and playfields (and GPRIOR mode 0 mostly unexplored)

7. Linear and easy to use high color depth modes (GTIA)

8. Fast keyboard reading

9. Faster joystick I/O and SIO I/O (16-bit reads/writes)

10. Display lists w/various modes (use by themselves or for speeding up screen updates)

11. WSYNC for easier to start writing cycle-exact code

12. DLIs (more optimal than raster IRQs)

13. BOOT Up to cassette files or disk files (without user intervention)

14. A lot more collision detection combinations (60-bits)

15. 4 DACs w/more accurate sampling rate (lower latency)

16. Better interlace (due to more shades to reduce flicker)

17. More colors/shades (bigger palette)

18. Horizontal re-use of hardware registers (much easier like same 114 cyles on PAL/NTSC)

19. Backward compatible with all A8 computers

 

That list does nothing to prove the C64's inferiority, just as the list in this thread doesn't prove the ST's it's just a list of features, not all of which are true that are slightly in the A8s favour. You post these lists then refuse to accept any kind of alternate list for the opposing machine because frankly you are up your own arse and doing this proves again how egotistical you are that you can claim you've proven again the A8 is superior to seemingly every machine ever built.

 

 

And sadly none of the systems have the most important item:

 

0. Brews a killer cup of coffee (sipping it at the moment)

 

My Keurig does that and sadly, probably has a faster processor! (no high speed joystick I/O tho)

 

 

One things is for sure, the joystick and disk drive ports are more useful and common for A8 and C64 than Atari ST.

[atariksi]

1. CPU Freq 1.78979Mhz

2. Rock solid timing and more accurate (No indeterminate signals to throw off cycle-exactness)

3. Easy overscanning

4. LMS -- easy to access more video memory, mirror images, repeat scanlines, etc.

5. VScroll/HScroll on per scanline basis (8-dir scrolling windows)

6. More priorities and playfields (and GPRIOR mode 0 mostly unexplored)

7. Linear and easy to use high color depth modes (GTIA)

8. Fast keyboard reading

9. Faster joystick I/O and SIO I/O (16-bit reads/writes)

10. Display lists w/various modes (use by themselves or for speeding up screen updates)

11. WSYNC for easier to start writing cycle-exact code

12. DLIs (more optimal than raster IRQs)

13. BOOT Up to cassette files or disk files (without user intervention)

14. A lot more collision detection combinations (60-bits)

15. 4 DACs w/more accurate sampling rate (lower latency)

16. Better interlace (due to more shades to reduce flicker)

17. More colors/shades (bigger palette)

18. Horizontal re-use of hardware registers (much easier like same 114 cyles on PAL/NTSC)

19. Backward compatible with all A8 computers

 

 

And sadly none of the systems have the most important item:

 

0. Brews a killer cup of coffee (sipping it at the moment)

 

My Keurig does that and sadly, probably has a faster processor! (no high speed joystick I/O tho)

 

 

One things is for sure, the joystick and disk drive ports are more useful and common for A8 and C64 than Atari ST.

 

Forgot to cut out the trollish crap from the posting. A8 is superior to C64 after a complete analysis of hardware aspects of both. Coffee doesn't cut it for me. I would take the A8.

[PeteD]

1. CPU Freq 1.78979Mhz

2. Rock solid timing and more accurate (No indeterminate signals to throw off cycle-exactness)

3. Easy overscanning

4. LMS -- easy to access more video memory, mirror images, repeat scanlines, etc.

5. VScroll/HScroll on per scanline basis (8-dir scrolling windows)

6. More priorities and playfields (and GPRIOR mode 0 mostly unexplored)

7. Linear and easy to use high color depth modes (GTIA)

8. Fast keyboard reading

9. Faster joystick I/O and SIO I/O (16-bit reads/writes)

10. Display lists w/various modes (use by themselves or for speeding up screen updates)

11. WSYNC for easier to start writing cycle-exact code

12. DLIs (more optimal than raster IRQs)

13. BOOT Up to cassette files or disk files (without user intervention)

14. A lot more collision detection combinations (60-bits)

15. 4 DACs w/more accurate sampling rate (lower latency)

16. Better interlace (due to more shades to reduce flicker)

17. More colors/shades (bigger palette)

18. Horizontal re-use of hardware registers (much easier like same 114 cyles on PAL/NTSC)

19. Backward compatible with all A8 computers

 

 

And sadly none of the systems have the most important item:

 

0. Brews a killer cup of coffee (sipping it at the moment)

 

My Keurig does that and sadly, probably has a faster processor! (no high speed joystick I/O tho)

 

 

One things is for sure, the joystick and disk drive ports are more useful and common for A8 and C64 than Atari ST.

 

Forgot to cut out the trollish crap from the posting. A8 is superior to C64 after a complete analysis of hardware aspects of both. Coffee doesn't cut it for me. I would take the A8.

 

haha Wanker

[flashjazzcat]

Coffee doesn't cut it for me. I would take the A8.

Awfully difficult to digest, though, let alone fit into a cup.

[STE'86]

Coffee doesn't cut it for me. I would take the A8.

Awfully difficult to digest, though, let alone fit into a cup.

 

yes but he isnt allowed caffeine as it interferes with his medication

[frogstar_robot]

Coffee doesn't cut it for me. I would take the A8.

Awfully difficult to digest, though, let alone fit into a cup.

 

yes but he isnt allowed caffeine as it interferes with his medication

 

Thread locked in 5...4...3...2....

[+warerat]

lda atariski

tax

cmp krishna

beq normal_exit

and #reason

bne normal_exit

txa

cmp joystick_port_lda

bne chewbacca_defense

cmp ego

bcc run_strawman_loop

ldy #0

:douche_check

cmp am_i_a_douchebag

bne normal_exit

iny

bne douche_check

txa

and #unrealistic_fanboy_who_doesnt_know_shit_about_hardware_because_he_couldnt_figure_out_how_to_connect_a_2K_SRAM_to_his_Atari_800

beq run_strawman_loop

jmp chewbacca_defense

 

QED.

[PeteD]

Coffee doesn't cut it for me. I would take the A8.

Awfully difficult to digest, though, let alone fit into a cup.

 

yes but he isnt allowed caffeine as it interferes with his medication

 

Thread locked in 5...4...3...2....

 

I wouldn't lock the thread for that if I were a mod, I would ban me for getting somewhat personal (although I don't think I've said much worse than "you're up your own arse", which imo is true) and ban you know who for the blatantly baiting posts like posting a reply then posting it AGAIN rather than just editing the 1st one JUST so you can say haha I removed the trollish stuff. That's just childish and is nothing except designed to get a response from me. Which he did. I'd be happy to be banned if I took that guy with me because you all might get some peace round here and the people who know what they're talking about and don't mind admitting the limitations of a machine or even admitting when they're wrong might get to post without it being drowned out by arguments.

 

 

Pete

[frogstar_robot]

 

1. CPU Freq 1.78979Mhz

2. Rock solid timing and more accurate (No indeterminate signals to throw off cycle-exactness)

3. Easy overscanning

4. LMS -- easy to access more video memory, mirror images, repeat scanlines, etc.

5. VScroll/HScroll on per scanline basis (8-dir scrolling windows)

6. More priorities and playfields (and GPRIOR mode 0 mostly unexplored)

7. Linear and easy to use high color depth modes (GTIA)

8. Fast keyboard reading

9. Faster joystick I/O and SIO I/O (16-bit reads/writes)

10. Display lists w/various modes (use by themselves or for speeding up screen updates)

11. WSYNC for easier to start writing cycle-exact code

12. DLIs (more optimal than raster IRQs)

13. BOOT Up to cassette files or disk files (without user intervention)

14. A lot more collision detection combinations (60-bits)

15. 4 DACs w/more accurate sampling rate (lower latency)

16. Better interlace (due to more shades to reduce flicker)

17. More colors/shades (bigger palette)

18. Horizontal re-use of hardware registers (much easier like same 114 cyles on PAL/NTSC)

19. Backward compatible with all A8 computers

 

 

 

 

In isolation, most of these items are true. In combination with other traits not necessarily. For instance the A8 has a 320x200x2 mode but the fine shaded/16/9 color modes are all 80x192x16. By expending some CPU on DLIs or mixing modelines or burning up some PM graphics which are themselves a limited resource, that limitation can be overcome partially but not with complete freedom. It won't do 320x200x16 unrestricted and the ST will. While the C64 is not as unrestricted as the ST in 320x200 it is freer in this mode than the A8. Such compromises abound once something, usually a game, has to be implemented vs. other platforms. I don't see 23 colors per line in the Last Ninja thread for instance. Of course that is true regardless of platform but let's not kid ourselves that the A8 will always win.

 

And since the subject IS comparison with the ST, the A8 isn't going to win most bandwidth competitions. The CPU difference alone will crush the A8 in most contexts and the 68000 is also going to win in bus width, bandwidth, and registers. So yeah, you can contrive situations that make the A8 come on top of most any machine but the truth of the matter is a 16-bit 68000 based machine is going to stomp it in most situations. It is only going to hold it's own against C-64 and many other 8-bit micros and is only unquestionably superior in all respects if the object of comparison is something like an Aquarius. As I've said before, I think the A8 a far more innovative and far better engineered machine for it's day and since an 800XL was my first a special place in my heart as well. But most people after using both aren't going to agree with you that the A8 is superior to an almost modern machine like an ST. And yes, I'll even allow that for say hobby electronics projects the A8 may have some points but still....

Edited December 23, 2009 by frogstar_robot

[PeteD]

 

1. CPU Freq 1.78979Mhz

2. Rock solid timing and more accurate (No indeterminate signals to throw off cycle-exactness)

3. Easy overscanning

4. LMS -- easy to access more video memory, mirror images, repeat scanlines, etc.

5. VScroll/HScroll on per scanline basis (8-dir scrolling windows)

6. More priorities and playfields (and GPRIOR mode 0 mostly unexplored)

7. Linear and easy to use high color depth modes (GTIA)

8. Fast keyboard reading

9. Faster joystick I/O and SIO I/O (16-bit reads/writes)

10. Display lists w/various modes (use by themselves or for speeding up screen updates)

11. WSYNC for easier to start writing cycle-exact code

12. DLIs (more optimal than raster IRQs)

13. BOOT Up to cassette files or disk files (without user intervention)

14. A lot more collision detection combinations (60-bits)

15. 4 DACs w/more accurate sampling rate (lower latency)

16. Better interlace (due to more shades to reduce flicker)

17. More colors/shades (bigger palette)

18. Horizontal re-use of hardware registers (much easier like same 114 cyles on PAL/NTSC)

19. Backward compatible with all A8 computers

 

 

 

 

In isolation, most of these items are true. In combination with other traits not necessarily. For instance the A8 has a 320x200x2 mode but the fine shaded/16/9 color modes are all 80x192x16. By expending some CPU on DLIs or mixing modelines or burning up some PM graphics which are themselves a limited resource, that limitation can be overcome partially but not with complete freedom. It won't do 320x200x16 unrestricted and the ST will. While the C64 is not as unrestricted as the ST in 320x200 it is freer in this mode than the A8. Such compromises abound once something, usually a game, has to be implemented vs. other platforms. I don't see 23 colors per line in the Last Ninja thread for instance. Of course that is true regardless of platform but let's not kid ourselves that the A8 will always win.

 

And since the subject IS comparison with the ST, the A8 isn't going to win most bandwidth competitions. The CPU difference alone will crush the A8 in most contexts and the 68000 is also going to win in bus width, bandwidth, and registers. So yeah, you can contrive situations that make the A8 come on top of most any machine but the truth of the matter is a 16-bit 68000 based machine is going to stomp it in most situations. It is only going to hold it's own against C-64 and many other 8-bit micros and is only unquestionably superior in all respects if the object of comparison is something like an Aquarius. As I've said before, I think the A8 a far more innovative and far better engineered machine for it's day and since an 800XL was my first a special place in my heart as well. But most people after using both aren't going to agree with you that the A8 is superior to an almost modern machine like an ST. And yes, I'll even allow that for say hobby electronics projects the A8 may have some points but still....

 

Amen.

 

It's the way the list tells 1/2 truths and if you don't know that you'd just think WOW but when you have the knowledge to analyse it you start to see things like I listed earlier. Stuff like better interlace due to more colours, which is all fine except for the failure to mention that the A8 would usually either be in 16 colour/shade mode and then be 80xY anyway which means interlace is fairly useless compared to other machines resolutions, or would be in a 4/5 colour mode and that the C64 can do 16 colours in hires already via colour ram. Things like 114 cycles, hmm yeah minus DMA and if you're doing the much loved overscan and dare to try to scroll you'll find you've got scant few of those left on "badlines" a lot less in fact than the C64. More colours/shades yes, but only 16/lowwww res or 4/5 normal res. Accurate timing with nothing to interrupt it, hmm apart from the CPU of course, which then gets countered with WSYNC, which wastes loads of CPU. It goes on and on..

 

 

It's really no use to take these factoids in isolation and extrapolate the machines superiority against any machine from them. Many counter claims to the magical ST inferiority list of 5 have been made with PROOF and they get ignored or some lame effort to invalidate them such as when I posted 3 images in greyscale to show 8 shades 320x200 is much better than 16 shades 80x200, then the response was that "converting" from the 80x200x16 wouldn't look as good on ST because it would lose 8 shades and you'd have to do that if the higher res image wasn't available. Clutching at straws. I've written a remapper for my tools app recently and tested it with some ST images and the A8 doesn't have the palette OR the shades to handle it (and it's not my app, I've checked it against various remapping graphics apps). Of course to any normal person, you'd just say, "fair enough, I'll redraw/recolour the picture to make better use of A8 colours", but to certain people if a colour doesn't exist in a machines palette it means it's inferior...

 

 

I keep saying it and I will continue to do so, I like the A8 else I wouldn't waste my time but even with my ~6 months experience with it (and yes you CAN learn everything about a machine in that time, it's been my career to do so in a lot less time) I can safely say it's a giant bitch to do anything on when you set yourself a target of even something fairly simple in comparison to other machines. Even something like Stuntcar Racer which has been mentioned recently "should" be better on A8 due to the faster CPU. Then you start to look at it and go, hmm, how do we get all those colours on screen? and how about that engine block in the middle of the 3D stuff? and those tyres that bounce up/down with the road, etc. There are ways round things like that but they all drain resources.

 

Anyway, it's xmas, I've got family stuff to do as well as coding (for A8 projects, how stupid of me), unless baiter boy starts up again I've had my say..

 

 

Pete

[vcsdream]

 

1. CPU Freq 1.78979Mhz

2. Rock solid timing and more accurate (No indeterminate signals to throw off cycle-exactness)

3. Easy overscanning

4. LMS -- easy to access more video memory, mirror images, repeat scanlines, etc.

5. VScroll/HScroll on per scanline basis (8-dir scrolling windows)

6. More priorities and playfields (and GPRIOR mode 0 mostly unexplored)

7. Linear and easy to use high color depth modes (GTIA)

8. Fast keyboard reading

9. Faster joystick I/O and SIO I/O (16-bit reads/writes)

10. Display lists w/various modes (use by themselves or for speeding up screen updates)

11. WSYNC for easier to start writing cycle-exact code

12. DLIs (more optimal than raster IRQs)

13. BOOT Up to cassette files or disk files (without user intervention)

14. A lot more collision detection combinations (60-bits)

15. 4 DACs w/more accurate sampling rate (lower latency)

16. Better interlace (due to more shades to reduce flicker)

17. More colors/shades (bigger palette)

18. Horizontal re-use of hardware registers (much easier like same 114 cyles on PAL/NTSC)

19. Backward compatible with all A8 computers

 

 

 

 

In isolation, most of these items are true. In combination with other traits not necessarily. For instance the A8 has a 320x200x2 mode but the fine shaded/16/9 color modes are all 80x192x16. By expending some CPU on DLIs or mixing modelines or burning up some PM graphics which are themselves a limited resource, that limitation can be overcome partially but not with complete freedom. It won't do 320x200x16 unrestricted and the ST will. While the C64 is not as unrestricted as the ST in 320x200 it is freer in this mode than the A8. Such compromises abound once something, usually a game, has to be implemented vs. other platforms. I don't see 23 colors per line in the Last Ninja thread for instance. Of course that is true regardless of platform but let's not kid ourselves that the A8 will always win.

 

And since the subject IS comparison with the ST, the A8 isn't going to win most bandwidth competitions. The CPU difference alone will crush the A8 in most contexts and the 68000 is also going to win in bus width, bandwidth, and registers. So yeah, you can contrive situations that make the A8 come on top of most any machine but the truth of the matter is a 16-bit 68000 based machine is going to stomp it in most situations. It is only going to hold it's own against C-64 and many other 8-bit micros and is only unquestionably superior in all respects if the object of comparison is something like an Aquarius. As I've said before, I think the A8 a far more innovative and far better engineered machine for it's day and since an 800XL was my first a special place in my heart as well. But most people after using both aren't going to agree with you that the A8 is superior to an almost modern machine like an ST. And yes, I'll even allow that for say hobby electronics projects the A8 may have some points but still....

 

Amen.

 

It's the way the list tells 1/2 truths and if you don't know that you'd just think WOW but when you have the knowledge to analyse it you start to see things like I listed earlier. Stuff like better interlace due to more colours, which is all fine except for the failure to mention that the A8 would usually either be in 16 colour/shade mode and then be 80xY anyway which means interlace is fairly useless compared to other machines resolutions, or would be in a 4/5 colour mode and that the C64 can do 16 colours in hires already via colour ram. Things like 114 cycles, hmm yeah minus DMA and if you're doing the much loved overscan and dare to try to scroll you'll find you've got scant few of those left on "badlines" a lot less in fact than the C64. More colours/shades yes, but only 16/lowwww res or 4/5 normal res. Accurate timing with nothing to interrupt it, hmm apart from the CPU of course, which then gets countered with WSYNC, which wastes loads of CPU. It goes on and on..

 

 

It's really no use to take these factoids in isolation and extrapolate the machines superiority against any machine from them. Many counter claims to the magical ST inferiority list of 5 have been made with PROOF and they get ignored or some lame effort to invalidate them such as when I posted 3 images in greyscale to show 8 shades 320x200 is much better than 16 shades 80x200, then the response was that "converting" from the 80x200x16 wouldn't look as good on ST because it would lose 8 shades and you'd have to do that if the higher res image wasn't available. Clutching at straws. I've written a remapper for my tools app recently and tested it with some ST images and the A8 doesn't have the palette OR the shades to handle it (and it's not my app, I've checked it against various remapping graphics apps). Of course to any normal person, you'd just say, "fair enough, I'll redraw/recolour the picture to make better use of A8 colours", but to certain people if a colour doesn't exist in a machines palette it means it's inferior...

 

 

I keep saying it and I will continue to do so, I like the A8 else I wouldn't waste my time but even with my ~6 months experience with it (and yes you CAN learn everything about a machine in that time, it's been my career to do so in a lot less time) I can safely say it's a giant bitch to do anything on when you set yourself a target of even something fairly simple in comparison to other machines. Even something like Stuntcar Racer which has been mentioned recently "should" be better on A8 due to the faster CPU. Then you start to look at it and go, hmm, how do we get all those colours on screen? and how about that engine block in the middle of the 3D stuff? and those tyres that bounce up/down with the road, etc. There are ways round things like that but they all drain resources.

 

Anyway, it's xmas, I've got family stuff to do as well as coding (for A8 projects, how stupid of me), unless baiter boy starts up again I've had my say..

 

 

Pete

 

 

Haha I just read the locked C64 vs thread.....where's Rocky mountains with his moronic laughing like a simpleton when you need him? And his sidekick...TMR. Then you guys have the complete collection again, C64 users know STs best, what a surprise.

Edited December 23, 2009 by vcsdream

[atariksi]

 

1. CPU Freq 1.78979Mhz

2. Rock solid timing and more accurate (No indeterminate signals to throw off cycle-exactness)

3. Easy overscanning

4. LMS -- easy to access more video memory, mirror images, repeat scanlines, etc.

5. VScroll/HScroll on per scanline basis (8-dir scrolling windows)

6. More priorities and playfields (and GPRIOR mode 0 mostly unexplored)

7. Linear and easy to use high color depth modes (GTIA)

8. Fast keyboard reading

9. Faster joystick I/O and SIO I/O (16-bit reads/writes)

10. Display lists w/various modes (use by themselves or for speeding up screen updates)

11. WSYNC for easier to start writing cycle-exact code

12. DLIs (more optimal than raster IRQs)

13. BOOT Up to cassette files or disk files (without user intervention)

14. A lot more collision detection combinations (60-bits)

15. 4 DACs w/more accurate sampling rate (lower latency)

16. Better interlace (due to more shades to reduce flicker)

17. More colors/shades (bigger palette)

18. Horizontal re-use of hardware registers (much easier like same 114 cyles on PAL/NTSC)

19. Backward compatible with all A8 computers

 

 

 

 

In isolation, most of these items are true.

...

They are ALL true.

 

In combination with other traits not necessarily. For instance the A8 has a 320x200x2 mode but the fine shaded/16/9 color modes are all 80x192x16. By expending some CPU on DLIs or mixing modelines or burning up some PM graphics which are themselves a limited resource, that limitation can be overcome partially but not with complete freedom. It won't do 320x200x16 unrestricted and the ST will.

...

You can mix many including 320*200*2 with Gr.9. All computers have restrictions. Oh, that list is not for comparing with ST. It was reply to a fanboy who claimed only the palette is superior on A8.

 

And since the subject IS comparison with the ST, the A8 isn't going to win most bandwidth competitions. The CPU difference alone will crush the A8 in most contexts and the 68000 is also going to win in bus width, bandwidth, and registers. So yeah, you can contrive situations that make the A8 come on top of most any machine but the truth of the matter is a 16-bit 68000 based machine is going to stomp it in most situations. It is only going to hold it's own against C-64 and many other 8-bit micros and is only unquestionably superior in all respects if the object of comparison is something like an Aquarius. As I've said before, I think the A8 a far more innovative and far better engineered machine for it's day and since an 800XL was my first a special place in my heart as well. But most people after using both aren't going to agree with you that the A8 is superior to an almost modern machine like an ST. And yes, I'll even allow that for say hobby electronics projects the A8 may have some points but still....

 

Yeah, the ST would win in 68000 vs. 6502. I already admitted that. ST would win in parallel port vs. joystick port but not in joystick port vs. joystick port. That brought up the issue of the +5V missing and porting joystick-related projects to ST (as already discussed).

[atariksi]

lda atariski

tax

cmp krishna

beq normal_exit

and #reason

bne normal_exit

txa

cmp joystick_port_lda

bne chewbacca_defense

cmp ego

bcc run_strawman_loop

ldy #0

:douche_check

cmp am_i_a_douchebag

bne normal_exit

iny

bne douche_check

txa

and #unrealistic_fanboy_who_doesnt_know_shit_about_hardware_because_he_couldnt_figure_out_how_to_connect_a_2K_SRAM_to_his_Atari_800

beq run_strawman_loop

jmp chewbacca_defense

 

QED.

 

So another one trying to show off his hardware skills unrelated to the topic. I didn't use your crappy ideas of putting circuit boards and soldering stuff. I wanted to do it with minimum changes to my A8 (preferably without soldering). Get a life. Go read some programming book. I never stated anything against you and you attacked me. Speaks of the hatred that you must be filled with.

[atariksi]

Coffee doesn't cut it for me. I would take the A8.

Awfully difficult to digest, though, let alone fit into a cup.

 

yes but he isnt allowed caffeine as it interferes with his medication

 

Sorry, I have no restrictions. I can take anything. I purposely don't take caffeine because I know the results just as I know the difference between a c64 and an A8. Some people are addicted to caffeine and have NO CHOICE without suffering withdrawal symptoms. I HAVE A CHOICE.

[PeteD]

 

 

 

Haha I just read the locked C64 vs thread.....where's Rocky mountains with his moronic laughing like a simpleton when you need him? And his sidekick...TMR. Then you guys have the complete collection again, C64 users know STs best, what a surprise.

 

Wrong again with this "C64 users" crap. It seems whenever you guys can't hack it that old chestnut comes out, I wonder where emkay went? That was his favourite when he couldn't get himself out of a tight spot, and you, well you seem to contribute nothing. I've owned, used and worked on ST and Amiga as well as a hell of a lot of other machines, so YES some of us DO know STs and Amigas and that they're better than A8s.

 

 

Pete

[Thorsten Günther]

Hey, I've just found out that the A8 is superior to any modern quad core PC or Mac:

 

1. CPU Freq 1.78979Mhz

 

- modern PC and Mac CPU frequencies only are provided in 4 digits by manufacturers

 

2. Rock solid timing and more accurate (No indeterminate signals to throw off cycle-exactness)

 

- due to 1. the timing will be less accurate

 

3. Easy overscanning

 

- no overscanning whatsoever

 

4. LMS -- easy to access more video memory, mirror images, repeat scanlines, etc.

 

- no such thing

 

5. VScroll/HScroll on per scanline basis (8-dir scrolling windows)

 

- no such thing, in fact one cannot even access the graphics hardware directly as a game or demo programmer

 

6. More priorities and playfields (and GPRIOR mode 0 mostly unexplored)

 

- no playfields

 

7. Linear and easy to use high color depth modes (GTIA)

 

- this is available - perhaps the modern PC may be on par here

 

8. Fast keyboard reading

 

- the keyboard reading is very slow on PCs

 

9. Faster joystick I/O and SIO I/O (16-bit reads/writes)

 

- no SIO port at all, and inferior joystick port (only 1 on most PCs)

 

10. Display lists w/various modes (use by themselves or for speeding up screen updates)

 

- not a single display list, screen has a fixed resolution that can only be changed in total

 

11. WSYNC for easier to start writing cycle-exact code

 

- no such thing

 

12. DLIs (more optimal than raster IRQs)

 

- no such thing

 

13. BOOT Up to cassette files or disk files (without user intervention)

 

- can only boot from disk, CD-ROM or hdd, no cassette capability

 

14. A lot more collision detection combinations (60-bits)

 

- no such thing

 

15. 4 DACs w/more accurate sampling rate (lower latency)

 

- only 2 DACs are available usually

 

16. Better interlace (due to more shades to reduce flicker)

 

- no interlace

 

17. More colors/shades (bigger palette)

 

- here the PC might have a slight advantage

 

18. Horizontal re-use of hardware registers (much easier like same 114 cyles on PAL/NTSC)

 

- no such thing

 

19. Backward compatible with all A8 computers

 

- totally incompatible to A8 computers

 

So sell your PC or Mac at an instant and hurry to get one of the last BNIB A8 computers from the few dealersleft!

 

 

Thorsten

[PeteD]

 

They are ALL true.

 

 

No, as has been argued over and over, most of them are true to a point, some are just not true. DLIs for a start are not optimal in all cases (see the OTHER thread) Instead of saying that though you'll just pretend you're right and that if only the C64 had DLIs the world would be a better place.

 

 

 

Pete

[atariksi]

Hey, I've just found out that the A8 is superior to any modern quad core PC or Mac:

 

1. CPU Freq 1.78979Mhz

 

- modern PC and Mac CPU frequencies only are provided in 4 digits by manufacturers

 

2. Rock solid timing and more accurate (No indeterminate signals to throw off cycle-exactness)

 

- due to 1. the timing will be less accurate

...

You're joking or really dumb, but believe it or not the timing is usually determined by timers not by the processor speeds. Processor speeds vary so can't really use them to time things in general. And they use Ghz nowadays not Mhz.

 

3. Easy overscanning

 

- no overscanning whatsoever

The laptops I have do overscanning feature on the video out.

 

4. LMS -- easy to access more video memory, mirror images, repeat scanlines, etc.

 

- no such thing

If you're speaking VGA, they have starting video position and hscroll registers.

 

5. VScroll/HScroll on per scanline basis (8-dir scrolling windows)

 

- no such thing, in fact one cannot even access the graphics hardware directly as a game or demo programmer

Depends on which OS you use.

 

6. More priorities and playfields (and GPRIOR mode 0 mostly unexplored)

 

- no playfields

Depends on which video card you use. They have overlay features which can serve like playfields/priorities or a local bus graphics card at >33Mhz.

 

7. Linear and easy to use high color depth modes (GTIA)

 

- this is available - perhaps the modern PC may be on par here

Wrong.

 

8. Fast keyboard reading

 

- the keyboard reading is very slow on PCs

Wrong.

 

9. Faster joystick I/O and SIO I/O (16-bit reads/writes)

 

- no SIO port at all, and inferior joystick port (only 1 on most PCs)

They have another disk drive port. Yeah, the gameport joystick is slower on PC than on many retro machines.

 

10. Display lists w/various modes (use by themselves or for speeding up screen updates)

 

- not a single display list, screen has a fixed resolution that can only be changed in total

But they have something called a local-bus (AGP/PCI) that allows you to make up for the speed in lower resolutions unlike ST/C64.

 

11. WSYNC for easier to start writing cycle-exact code

 

- no such thing

Yeah, that is problem with modern machinery-- no cycle exact coding.

 

12. DLIs (more optimal than raster IRQs)

 

- no such thing

Well, they do have a HBI/VBI detection at port 3dah.

 

13. BOOT Up to cassette files or disk files (without user intervention)

 

- can only boot from disk, CD-ROM or hdd, no cassette capability

They have boot option (period).

 

14. A lot more collision detection combinations (60-bits)

 

- no such thing

The Ghz helps here not a slower processor.

 

15. 4 DACs w/more accurate sampling rate (lower latency)

 

- only 2 DACs are available usually

But you're comparing apples and oranges.

 

16. Better interlace (due to more shades to reduce flicker)

 

- no interlace

They have noninterlace high-resolution which is superior.

 

17. More colors/shades (bigger palette)

 

- here the PC might have a slight advantage

 

18. Horizontal re-use of hardware registers (much easier like same 114 cyles on PAL/NTSC)

 

- no such thing

 

19. Backward compatible with all A8 computers

 

- totally incompatible to A8 computers

Wrong. They have to be compatible with older PCs not A8s. A8s are not compatible with C64. Duh!

 

So sell your PC or Mac at an instant and hurry to get one of the last BNIB A8 computers from the few dealersleft!

 

 

Thorsten

No, you are wrong in most counts and you forgot that the local bus/Ghz processor helps more than your 1Mhz C64.

[frogstar_robot]

 

I wouldn't lock the thread for that if I were a mod, I would ban me for getting somewhat personal (although I don't think I've said much worse than "you're up your own arse", which imo is true) and ban you know who for the blatantly baiting posts like posting a reply then posting it AGAIN rather than just editing the 1st one JUST so you can say haha I removed the trollish stuff. That's just childish and is nothing except designed to get a response from me. Which he did. I'd be happy to be banned if I took that guy with me because you all might get some peace round here and the people who know what they're talking about and don't mind admitting the limitations of a machine or even admitting when they're wrong might get to post without it being drowned out by arguments.

 

 

Pete

 

I wasn't even bagging on STE in particular. Just noting that things are getting heated and ever more snarky and Albert already seems annoyed at the vs. threads. I was being predictive rather than vindictive.

[PeteD]

 

I wouldn't lock the thread for that if I were a mod, I would ban me for getting somewhat personal (although I don't think I've said much worse than "you're up your own arse", which imo is true) and ban you know who for the blatantly baiting posts like posting a reply then posting it AGAIN rather than just editing the 1st one JUST so you can say haha I removed the trollish stuff. That's just childish and is nothing except designed to get a response from me. Which he did. I'd be happy to be banned if I took that guy with me because you all might get some peace round here and the people who know what they're talking about and don't mind admitting the limitations of a machine or even admitting when they're wrong might get to post without it being drowned out by arguments.

 

 

Pete

 

I wasn't even bagging on STE in particular. Just noting that things are getting heated and ever more snarky and Albert already seems annoyed at the vs. threads. I was being predictive rather than vindictive.

 

 

I get you, just saying it seems sometimes the mods seem a bit reluctant to ban people or lock threads just because some people are actually learning something from them or maybe just think they are depending on whose posts they're reading and therefore all hell breaks loose (as you say it's already got there again, will it take another year and hundreds of pages for this one to be locked too).

 

These Vs things should be banned because the same info can be got from the more technical threads that actual have direction and purpose like the LN threads, other talk about porting games (Stuntcar racer, IK+ etc). If you want to know what the A8 is capable of, actually reading/watching the dev process and the pitfalls therin is the best thing. It's also obvious by certain peoples lack of appearance in those kinds of threads what their real agenda is.

 

There's always the offer to take the agro off this forum and onto Format War which is what it was set up for, so people didn't have to even know these arguments existed (and to save the mods here the hassle), but so far most people have stayed away. Maybe they're afraid it'll be full of C64 fanboys

 

 

Pete

[+wood_jl]

You guys are too much!! HA HA!! Everybody chill out...heh heh.

 

 

On the 8-bit vs. ST thing.... One of the big things that makes me prefer the 8-bit to the ST (in the modern, practical sense) is the fact that you don't have to own a single floppy drive or single floppy disc to *fully* enjoy it. This is not only convenient, but practical.

 

I was "out of" the entire retro-computing scene for a number of years; sadly, I never used the original serial SIO2PC or that might not have been the case. Worn out/unreliable floppies and drives is a huge problem for the lone, not-so-technical retrocomputer enthusiast. I really envy you guys who are handy with your soldering guns, some of you even creating things with them. So there are potential problems for the lone retro-computing enthusiast: (1) I don't know how to fix that screwy floppy drive, (2) new media isn't readily available anyway, (3) I don't know anybody else who's into this stuff anymore (which is why it's so cool to gather here with folks who do).

 

When I (belatedly) found out about SIO2PC, I had long-since moved to notebook computers, and didn't have a one with a serial port, then found out the USB-to-serial things suck adn won't work. That's why when the Atarimax USB SIO2PC came out, I was so thrilled. This just totally solves the problems. It really makes it easy to enjoy the A8, and I don't have to worry about the 1050 or media failing.

 

Out of the A8 vs. Commodore flamewar thread, I learned of the "1541 Ultimate" for the Commodore 64, which allows all the games/software to be played, sans troublesome floppy drive. This totally removed the same problems as the SIO2PC did for Atari. So I can easily and reliably enjoy this retro-computer. Under those circumstances, "sure I'll take a Commodore 64."

 

The problem (for me) with the ST (and presumably, the Amiga) is I am not aware of ways that are as EASY and AVAILABLE to do the same thing. The HxC floppy drive emulator http://www.torlus.com/floppy/ seems to be a step in the right direction, but does anybody know where to get one? It doesn't look nearly as elegant of a solution as SIO2PC or Sdrive for A8, or 1541 Ultimate for C64. These devices are nearly flawless and foolproof.....for the non-technically-inclined user.

 

So I see this not so much as Atari-8 vs ST as I do 8-bit (A8/C64) vs 16-bit (ST/Amiga) situation, for the casual, non-technical user who wants to easily and reliably run from disc images, and not have troublesome shit strewn all over the desk. Add to that, the fact that 8-bit monitors (TV sets) are all over the house already, vs. trying to source reliable antique RGB monitors. It's pretty easy to have an A8 and SIO2PC/Sdrive, and a C64/1541 Ultimate on one little card table with one TV hooked to both with S-video, and have minimal clutter, minimal hassle, the best possible display, and all software easily loaded, available free. [How easy would it be to put both an ST and Amiga on one monitor? Cables on Ebay like for the 8-bits? I think not] That's why I have both 8-bit setups now and no 16-bit.

 

To add to the complexity, which 16-bit model (of each) would you choose to represent the lineup and have the best possible experience? For 8-bits, it's easy: C64 for Commodore and any XL/XE for Atari. Would you get an original ST? STe? Would all the old games run with the latest TOS on STe? Would you miss out on any if you went original ST? Which version of TOS do I want? Where do I get it? Would you get Amiga 500? 1200? Would all the old games run on the newer system? Would you miss out on newer ones if you went A500? Which version of Kickstart and Workbench do I want? Where do I get it?

 

Granted, one can argue - in the theoretical sense - the merits of either line of computers. It's very easy to set up the 8-bits, and enjoy the entire field of sofware on them. I think that - in the modern, practical sense - makes them much more attractive, to the non-technical, retro-computer enthusiast. [i also got a Vic-20/Megacart because it captures the entire Vic experience in one tiny package and uses an Atari video cable - talk about EASY] If it gets to be that easy with the 16-bit systems, I will be more interested.

 

Opinions welcome, of course! Happy holidays to all.

[frogstar_robot]

Hey, I've just found out that the A8 is superior to any modern quad core PC or Mac:

 

.

2. Rock solid timing and more accurate (No indeterminate signals to throw off cycle-exactness)

 

- due to 1. the timing will be less accurate

.

.

 

I'll note that more and more kit these days supports HPET timers. That's 3 to 32 continuous or one-shot timers running at least 10Mhz (if not higher). I don't doubt in the least that the A8 timers are vastly superior in some respect...

 

.

.

9. Faster joystick I/O and SIO I/O (16-bit reads/writes)

 

- no SIO port at all, and inferior joystick port (only 1 on most PCs)

 

 

Not even one on anything made after 05 for the most part. That is yet another legacy port that has been subsumed by USB. Serial and Parallel ports are on the way out too. A Core Duo motherboard I just installed has serial and parallel headers but was not supplied with ways to bring them out to ports on the case. I wouldn't be surprised to see the option doesn't exist at all on a lot of kit these days. That IS something of a minor shame as both are friendly to the home tinkerer and the best we can do henceforth is either some sort of experimenter's kit or a serial dongle for USB.

 

Come to think of it, making an old ComputerEyes interface to a PC might be a fun project

.

.

19. Backward compatible with all A8 computers

 

- totally incompatible to A8 computers

 

 

Not necessarily. An APE or similar interface/software combo turns a PC into a virtual stack of A8 peripherals. And most any old PC can emulate A8s, STs, and even C-64s (with varying degrees of exactness....). So a PC can talk to or mimic these machines. That's not too shabby.

[frogstar_robot]

I get you, just saying it seems sometimes the mods seem a bit reluctant to ban people or lock threads just because some people are actually learning something from them or maybe just think they are depending on whose posts they're reading and therefore all hell breaks loose (as you say it's already got there again, will it take another year and hundreds of pages for this one to be locked too).

 

Pete

 

To be brutally honest, I'm hooked on the trainwreck drama aspect of them. I shouldn't look; it is a waste of my limited lifetime; but I can't help myself. (And yea Gods! Posting in them.......) At least I can have some empathy for the rubberneckers I curse at when a wreck has been cleared but the traffic is still slow.

 

I at least hope I've outgrown flinging poo in these things though I'm still immature enough to giggle at the poop throwing and dogged assurance that THEY ARE RIGHT that others are engaging in.

[+DarkLord]

 

<snipped>

 

The problem (for me) with the ST (and presumably, the Amiga) is I am not aware of ways that are as EASY and AVAILABLE to do the same thing. The HxC floppy drive emulator http://www.torlus.com/floppy/ seems to be a step in the right direction, but does anybody know where to get one? It doesn't look nearly as elegant of a solution as SIO2PC or Sdrive for A8, or 1541 Ultimate for C64. These devices are nearly flawless and foolproof.....for the non-technically-inclined user.

 

 

There've been a few advancements on this front. Most of the more popular Amiga and Atari titles

have been updated so they will work off of mass storage devices. For the Atari ST owner, there

is the Ultrasatan. I've got 2, they rock!

 

http://joo.kie.sk/ultrasatan/

[Thorsten Günther]

The problem (for me) with the ST (and presumably, the Amiga) is I am not aware of ways that are as EASY and AVAILABLE to do the same thing. The HxC floppy drive emulator http://www.torlus.com/floppy/ seems to be a step in the right direction, but does anybody know where to get one?

 

eBay had them listed till today - perhaps you should ask Lotharek if there's one left if you really want one.

 

To add to the complexity, which 16-bit model (of each) would you choose to represent the lineup and have the best possible experience? For 8-bits, it's easy: C64 for Commodore and any XL/XE for Atari. Would you get an original ST? STe? Would all the old games run with the latest TOS on STe? Would you miss out on any if you went original ST? Which version of TOS do I want? Where do I get it? Would you get Amiga 500? 1200? Would all the old games run on the newer system? Would you miss out on newer ones if you went A500? Which version of Kickstart and Workbench do I want? Where do I get it?

 

I'd choose STE with TOS 1.62 for ST/STE games (only very few titles do not run on it, and even less if you boot a disk based TOS 1.0 first) and I recently chose an Amiga 600. The main reason being easier RAM expandability compared to the ST/Amiga 500 (SIMMs on STE, trapdoor and PCMCIA SRAM on the 600) which allows the use of all hard disk patched games (ULS and the like on ST, WHDload on Amiga). Kickstart 2.0 37.350 and Workbench 2.1 will suffice for me. eBay.

 

But isn't it similar to all newly-acquired computer systems that you first have to learn about them? E.g.: what DOS should one use on his A8? DOS 2.0, DOS 3, DOS 2.5, OSS A+, TurboDOS, BiboDOS, SpartaDOS, MyDOS, XDOS? Which GameDOS should he choose - NDOS, MyPicoDOS, Speed Init? Which A8 should he purchase as a newbie? Which Floppy?

 

And regarding the video cable issue: various adaptor cables and plugs are or were available for both the Amiga and ST - personally, both my 800XL and my STE are connected to one of my Mitsubishi EUM-1491A monitors (the second one is my backup unit), and both can be connected to my LCD TV even at the same time, either through different inputs or through a SCART switch box - on the TV, ST high is only possible through the VGA input though, so I bought an old ST/mono switch box to connect one of its outputs to VGA and one to SCART).

 

Using an 8-bit computer really is not that easy for anyone who never owned one of that specific line, and if the computer comes without a manual, you'll have a great deal of trouble - the OPTION key problem ("Most of the games I try to load from the DOS menu crash!") and disk-based DOS variety on XL/XE alone can drive someone who only experienced computers like the Speccy and C64 nuts.

 

Thorsten