New GTIA chips!

[Sampiero]

I just wanted to say : THANKS !!!!!

Thanks to keep the dream alive !

[Loyal Atarian]

I have been blown away by this forum topic. I am totally in favor of what is being done. This was sorely needed a long time ago!

 

Anything I can do to help, please let me know!

 

My dream has been to be able to use all the software that used to work on my original Atari XL series computer, and to see the 8-bits expand further. There is a lot of software that currently loads and breaks, or wont load at all, that worked perfectly fine on an XL/XE. You don't know how much I miss it. I was so disappointed by the Tramiels and how they ditched the superior 8-bit design. Atari has been one big frayed end since the 8-bit line's development was cut off prematurely. After all these years... now is better than never.

 

I would simply like to see the original recreated as a base starting point! Please contact me to provide you some programs that work fine in a standard 8-bit XL/XE but wont work at all in any available software emulator.

 

For the future, after all this is accomplished (and established) there'll be a base to work on expanding the 8-bit...to make a dream come true super Atari 8-bit computer.. with upwards compatibility and integration with PCs... just as the original Atari had planned and began to develop, but could not implement.

 

I was seeking employment with Atari just as I left college and was a few months too late in the early '90s. It was a dream for me, and really saddened me to see what happened to the 8-bits and the Lynx. Sort of an unrequited dream. You and everyone involved in this project are my new heroes of computing. Please don't let it down!

[Mii]

I have finished recovering the GDS stream and reconstructed the GTIA, MARIA, STELLA and several other proprietary Atari chips, now to see if the GDS can be translated to VHDL or if I can find a fab that still does hmos/nmos the original Atari chips can be reproduced at minimum - in SMD sizes...

 

 

Curt

 

Greetings, Curt. When can expect the 7800 and other 8 bit Atari's on a chip? BTW, is the Flashback 2 and 2+, an Atari 2600 on a chip? How much is software emulation? Also, will you be at CGE 2010 Curt?

[Curt Vendel]

Flashback 1 is an NOAC, the FB2 and 2+ are 2600's on a chip. Gonna try to be at CGE, just seeing if my schedule and my health permit, but I've already expressed interest in going.

 

 

 

Curt

 

I have finished recovering the GDS stream and reconstructed the GTIA, MARIA, STELLA and several other proprietary Atari chips, now to see if the GDS can be translated to VHDL or if I can find a fab that still does hmos/nmos the original Atari chips can be reproduced at minimum - in SMD sizes...

 

 

Curt

 

Greetings, Curt. When can expect the 7800 and other 8 bit Atari's on a chip? BTW, is the Flashback 2 and 2+, an Atari 2600 on a chip? How much is software emulation? Also, will you be at CGE 2010 Curt?

[philipj]

I saw this link a few minutes ago and thought about this topic... Think there might be a chance for a re-release of the old 8-bit computers?

 

8-bit TV-Computer

[GroovyBee]

I saw this link a few minutes ago and thought about this topic... Think there might be a chance for a re-release of the old 8-bit computers?

 

Its a NOAC too.

[philipj]

I saw this link a few minutes ago and thought about this topic... Think there might be a chance for a re-release of the old 8-bit computers?

 

Its a NOAC too.

 

The other day I was thinking about the Nintendo versus an XE computer and came to the conclusion that those XE's really could've gave the NES a run for its money. Just from a hardware standpoint, the NES just doesn't hold a candle to an XE.

[GroovyBee]

The other day I was thinking about the Nintendo versus an XE computer and came to the conclusion that those XE's really could've gave the NES a run for its money. Just from a hardware standpoint, the NES just doesn't hold a candle to an XE.

 

I can't agree with that statement. The NES can push far more background tiles and sprites than the XE can. However, that's a discussion for another thread so I'll leave it at that.

[atariksi]

The other day I was thinking about the Nintendo versus an XE computer and came to the conclusion that those XE's really could've gave the NES a run for its money. Just from a hardware standpoint, the NES just doesn't hold a candle to an XE.

 

I can't agree with that statement. The NES can push far more background tiles and sprites than the XE can. However, that's a discussion for another thread so I'll leave it at that.

 

You should leave it for another thread, but you didn't. Sorry, you can disagree all you want but it doesn't affect reality that sprites don't make a system superior or inferior. And what sprites are you talking about; they aren't that great on NES. Any computer would do better than a console given the greater flexibility a computer offers. NES-- let's see 2KB RAM standard (less than even the crippled 7800), less colors, no DLIs, no ANTIC processing for various combinations of graphics modes, etc. etc.

[+pboland]

I saw this link a few minutes ago and thought about this topic... Think there might be a chance for a re-release of the old 8-bit computers?

 

8-bit TV-Computer

I would have loved to see an Atari flashback computer like this. I believe the topic was discussed once before. I just can't find the topic now.

[philipj]

The other day I was thinking about the Nintendo versus an XE computer and came to the conclusion that those XE's really could've gave the NES a run for its money. Just from a hardware standpoint, the NES just doesn't hold a candle to an XE.

 

I can't agree with that statement. The NES can push far more background tiles and sprites than the XE can. However, that's a discussion for another thread so I'll leave it at that.

 

You should leave it for another thread, but you didn't. Sorry, you can disagree all you want but it doesn't affect reality that sprites don't make a system superior or inferior. And what sprites are you talking about; they aren't that great on NES. Any computer would do better than a console given the greater flexibility a computer offers. NES-- let's see 2KB RAM standard (less than even the crippled 7800), less colors, no DLIs, no ANTIC processing for various combinations of graphics modes, etc. etc.

 

I was kind of thinking along those same lines... I'm just now reading up on the Atari 8-bit computer inner makings. The biggest problem with the 2600 was that the 6502 had to control every aspect of the bus, which cut cycles for graphics and gameplay. The computers, however had the freddie chip that controled the bus and left the CPU free to do more then a 2600 or an NES. Plus it had 64k of RAM with an Antic and GTIA that had 16 graphic modes.

 

Any ways I was just checking up on the progess of the "New GTIA's" as the topic title goes... When I saw the "8-bit TV Computer" it just reminded me of this topic and I was just curious about the new GTIA; didn't want to go off topic, which was why I kept my first comments short so I wouldn't let my enthusiasm get the best me comparing hardware. Just checking up on the new GTIA's.

 

Any new releases comming out soon?

 

I saw this link a few minutes ago and thought about this topic... Think there might be a chance for a re-release of the old 8-bit computers?

 

8-bit TV-Computer

I would have loved to see an Atari flashback computer like this. I believe the topic was discussed once before. I just can't find the topic now.

 

I wouldn't doubt it... It would've been cool if a cartridge connector was put on those things... Oh... Also including those two button Atari 7800 pad controllers, you know the one we didn't get in the U.S., would be great.

Edited May 11, 2010 by philipj

[frogstar_robot]

I was kind of thinking along those same lines... I'm just now reading up on the Atari 8-bit computer inner makings. The biggest problem with the 2600 was that the 6502 had to control every aspect of the bus, which cut cycles for graphics and gameplay. The computers, however had the freddie chip that controled the bus and left the CPU free to do more then a 2600 or an NES. Plus it had 64k of RAM with an Antic and GTIA that had 16 graphic modes.

 

 

Freddie isn't anything all that special. Only last few 800XLs and the XEs have it and they aren't any better from an end user point of view for it. Freddie consolidates some of the logic and circuitry for refreshing the ram and controlling the ram bus. It is a way of reducing the component count of an A8 board. A8s without FREDDIE just use more components to achieve the same tasks.

 

This was not the only time Atari consolidated and simplified the A8 design. The ANTIC (which is probably the chip you were thinking of) is a simple GPU that controls the operation of the GTIA which actually outputs lines to the display. ANTIC has to take over the memory bus to fetch graphical information from RAM which it sends to the GTIA in accordance with a program it runs called the Display List. The 400/800 computers had a fair bit of glue logic so that ANTIC could halt the 6502 while it did its thing. The XL computers had a custom 6502c instead of a regular 6502. The only difference was this glue logic was incorporated into the 6502 which now had a HALT pin added for the ANTIC. Again, XLs weren't all that different from 400/800s but unlike the 400/800 had single board designs.

 

And I'll have to agree with GroovyBee here. The NES was far more suited to large tilebased scrollers. The genre was greatly elaborated on with the NES and it is no surprise to me that Ninty engineered it with that in mind. I have no great love for the NES; I never saw so many muddy beigy palette flickerfest games in my life. But I have no trouble admitting that has some hardware superiorities over the A8. I also believe it's sound chip generally more capable than POKEY and the cart port was clearly designed with the possibility of hardware enhanced carts....which means NES emulators have to simulate all of THOSE too.

 

The 2600 and A8 were my first loves and I tend to view them through rose colored glasses for that but the NES DOES benefit from 5 years worth of hardware advances.

[Rybags]

The 2600 actually has an advantage so far as bus use goes.

 

No Refresh cycles stolen, and no DMA since the CPU loads graphics registers manually.

Of course overall it has a big penalty due to slower clock speed and having to do practically all the graphics manually, but in terms of how the CPU's penalised by the other hardware it fares pretty well.

 

Regardless of that, and despite so-called popular opinion, the 6502 is not efficient with it's bus usage since it hogs it unnecessarily every cycle whether it needs to or not.

 

So, compared to something like the 68000 which can still be productive in wait-state cycles and doesn't hog the bus when it doesn't need to, the 6502 is pretty inefficient.

[atariksi]

The 2600 actually has an advantage so far as bus use goes.

 

No Refresh cycles stolen, and no DMA since the CPU loads graphics registers manually.

Of course overall it has a big penalty due to slower clock speed and having to do practically all the graphics manually, but in terms of how the CPU's penalised by the other hardware it fares pretty well.

 

Regardless of that, and despite so-called popular opinion, the 6502 is not efficient with it's bus usage since it hogs it unnecessarily every cycle whether it needs to or not.

 

So, compared to something like the 68000 which can still be productive in wait-state cycles and doesn't hog the bus when it doesn't need to, the 6502 is pretty inefficient.

 

It's the overall that counts.

 

As far as bus usage goes, 6502 spends one cycle for read or write whereas 68000 uses 4 cycles. And as far as using bus during "idle" cycles, you can also implement that on 6502:

 

http://homepage.mac.com/jorgechamorro/a2things/a2DMAMagic/

 

68000 is superior because of higher clock speed but its cycles aren't so optimized.

[atariksi]

...

And I'll have to agree with GroovyBee here. The NES was far more suited to large tilebased scrollers....

You sure you understand the idiom that "it doesn't hold a candle". Take another example: Atari 800 doesn't hold a candle to Pentium IV PCs. That means that you can still have a few things that Atari 800 has superior to modern PCs (like fastboot, better joysticks, etc.) and still that statement is true. GroovyBee is wrong and you are too for agreeing with him. Sorry, but just biasing a machine for a certain hardware aspect doesn't make it superior. It doesn't hold a candle to so many other features of A8 which NES and other 8-bit consoles lack.

 

...

The genre was greatly elaborated on with the NES and it is no surprise to me that Ninty engineered it with that in mind. I have no great love for the NES; I never saw so many muddy beigy palette flickerfest games in my life. But I have no trouble admitting that has some hardware superiorities over the A8...

That's the point I am making that you don't understand the idiom. Some doesn't mean most.

 

The 2600 and A8 were my first loves and I tend to view them through rose colored glasses for that but the NES DOES benefit from 5 years worth of hardware advances.

 

Bullcrap. You are NOW viewing through rose colored glasses before your love was true.

[Rybags]

That Sync line isn't on Atari's 6502s, at least not the Sally version.

[GroovyBee]

You sure you understand the idiom that "it doesn't hold a candle".

 

I forgot that in your world all the major game developers of the time supported the A8s and it was king for a decade. Meanwhile, back in the real world the 7800 probably outsold it, NES outsold it, C64 outsold it, ZX Spectrum outsold it and the Amastrad CPC probably outsold it too.

[+Philsan]

Back in the real world the 7800 probably outsold it, NES outsold it, C64 outsold it, ZX Spectrum outsold it and the Amastrad CPC probably outsold it too.

Regarding 8-bit computers, I don't think ZX Spectrum and CPC outsold A8.

Moreover, XE series has been sold in Eastern Europe till Nineties.

http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2005/12/total-share.ars/4

http://jeremyreimer.com/postman/node/329

[Tickled_Pink]

Back in the real world the 7800 probably outsold it, NES outsold it, C64 outsold it, ZX Spectrum outsold it and the Amastrad CPC probably outsold it too.

Regarding 8-bit computers, I don't think ZX Spectrum and CPC outsold A8.

Moreover, XE series has been sold in Eastern Europe till Nineties.

http://arstechnica.c...tal-share.ars/4

http://jeremyreimer....ostman/node/329

 

Depends on the locality. In the UK, the ZX Spectrum easily outsold the A8, despite the A8s longer lifespan. Price was obviously the big factor here. When the Spectrum was released, the Ataris still cost 3 or 4 weeks' wages for most people.

 

I doubt the CPC outsold it, though. It wasn't that successful. Again, because of cost. I personally only ever met one person who had one. Which made it all the more irritating when I saw new games coming out regularly for the CPC and nothing coming out for the A8 from UK developers.

 

Worldwide I would expect the A8 to have easily outsold both.

[GroovyBee]

I doubt the CPC outsold it, though. It wasn't that successful.

 

According to the Amstrad website 3 million CPCs were sold :-

 

http://www.amstrad.com/products/archive/index.html

[+Philsan]

Here is the original thread I opened on this subject:

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/131155-best-selling-personal-computers

[frogstar_robot]

You sure you understand the idiom that "it doesn't hold a candle". Take another example: Atari 800 doesn't hold a candle to Pentium IV PCs. That means that you can still have a few things that Atari 800 has superior to modern PCs (like fastboot, better joysticks, etc.) and still that statement is true. GroovyBee is wrong and you are too for agreeing with him. Sorry, but just biasing a machine for a certain hardware aspect doesn't make it superior. It doesn't hold a candle to so many other features of A8 which NES and other 8-bit consoles lack.

 

 

I understand that and YOU can stop being so condescending. The feature line items the A8 had over the NES were basically irrelevant to the hordes playing the SMB series, Kirby series, and other well regarded franchises on the title. My point was the NES was very good at such games and developing them was relatively easy. Can the A8 be cudgeled into doing such a game? Sure, but it isn't easy or quick and the results are debatable. We basically have Crownland and a small handful of other titles to hold up in that regard and the number will stay small because the limited talent and expense pool for creating them probably isn't going care about the no doubt voluminous feature list you'll reply to this with.

 

The NES IS superior for big-world tile based games and those were the "killer apps" for the console. To be sure, the A8 has it all over the NES for Ballblazer but Ballblazer wasn't what was making the NES a hit. The A8 can no doubt show some superiorities in other areas but so what? They aren't terribly relevant to type of gaming that started predominating in the mid eighties.

 

And while I'm on the point of "quick and easy", the A8 can truly do some astounding things in the hands of a super talented developer even things that aren't easily replicated elsewhere. But to middle of the bell curve devs, the A8 doesn't yield it's treasures easily or quickly and platforms like the NES did.

 

Bullcrap. You are NOW viewing through rose colored glasses before your love was true.

 

The A8 is neither a church nor a woman....at least not to me. I love it for the good times I had with it when I was a kid. Acknowledging things other platforms did well takes nothing away from that.

[+poobah]

random crap

 

response to crap

 

Don't feed the troll, this will turn into a 30 page thread about why the A8 is superior to a wallswitch, until Al has to boot him from it.

[atariksi]

You sure you understand the idiom that "it doesn't hold a candle".

 

I forgot that in your world all the major game developers of the time supported the A8s and it was king for a decade. Meanwhile, back in the real world the 7800 probably outsold it, NES outsold it, C64 outsold it, ZX Spectrum outsold it and the Amastrad CPC probably outsold it too.

 

Sometimes you think your made-up world is so real so that you think the real world is fake.

 

I.e., that's a straw-man argument. I never made any claim regarding sales nor does it have any relevance to which machine is superior. I think Marlboro cigarettes sold more than all those systems combined. It doesn't help me in determining which system is superior.

[atariksi]

random crap

 

response to crap

 

Don't feed the troll, this will turn into a 30 page thread about why the A8 is superior to a wallswitch, until Al has to boot him from it.

 

If you can't understand, stop trying to frame people like you (and some others) did in a previous thread.