Classic Computers -- what if they would have lived on?

[Cebus Capucinis]

It's pretty amazing to think about how the birth of the home computing industry led to such a wide variety of options for the home consumer. Commodore 64, Amiga, Atari 8bits/XE/ST, Vic-20, TI-99/4A, you name it! There was just SO much to offer out there. Everything had its perks, too, and every system did certain things better than others. I have been amazed at what each system had to offer and it's simply crazy! But it leads me to wonder:

 

What happened to make us go to this 'standard' option of PC/Mac? All the other companies hit the dirt, sure, but why? Why didn't we see a continuation of Amiga standards or utilization of Atari computer specs? Everything just sort of seems bland now my comparison. You've got your Intel standard, your AMD fare, and that's about it. To all you history gurus out there, what exactly happened? The standardization of Microsoft's OS software and limited compatibility? I'm very curious as to why there is really only the two computer standards now.

 

Also, what do you think computing would be like now if these offerings were continued? If none of these companies hit the dust and were still making products today? Say there's still an Atari computer being made, or an Amiga even. How would the market be different? What would be different technologically?

 

I think the market would benefit from it. The increase in competition would lead to greater technological advancements, and each company's "benefit" would be even greater, I think!

 

So what say you, AtariAgers? Why did we go to this PC-only or Mac standard? What would be different if we didn't?

[Mirage]

It's too late for me to really get into this too much, but there's a bunch of great books out there on the history of the various companies (and in general) that offer a lot of insight. As much as I dislike Microsoft and their "standard", I do think it had to happen... a standard really helped computers to become so prevalent in business and in homes in use by all families.

 

But my one other thought at the moment is that it's interesting how it's starting to come full-circle. A lot of technology has now gone to "the cloud", web standards, and other interpreted languages like Java etc, and all that is becoming more popular. Which opens the door for people to use OS's other than whatever the standard is, which was Windows for a long time. Now, Macs are doing great, partially for that reason, and you have other OS's being developed for the desktop. At least the possibility is there again.

 

Sorry if that makes no sense, I'm starting to drop off to sleep.

 

Question: did you experience all this? If not, I'll tell you, the late '70s/early '80s was a fantastic time to be a computer geek. Watching all the companies rise with all the variety, then fall twice as fast was interesting, even to a teenager. I didn't even totally understand at the time what was happening, but looking back... wow, exciting times! One of the coolest experiences of my childhood was browsing through the HeathKit stores... just think, entire stores dedicated just to obscure hobby computers and robots and every other amazing geek toy (none of which I could afford at the time). Just an unbelievable time to be a kid.

[Cebus Capucinis]

I didn't, actually, but it's really neat to see what I was missing out on. Our first computer in our house was a PCjr, followed by a Northgate 8088. I was too late for the 'serious' computer time, being old enough to finally understand basic DOS commands (7-8 ) right when PC started being standard.

 

Give me some of those links to those books! My wife is asking me what I want for Christmas and I have given her the Phoenix book, the two other video game history books, but I would absolutely love to own some books about classic computers!

 

EDIT: It's really cool to play around with all these old systems now that I'm an adult and I can fully understand the capabilities and what they had to offer. I just got my first A8s about 3 months ago and the TI-99/4a 4 months ago. The A8 computers get used daily, they're just so awesome!

 

The first time I fired up the A8 and played some games, I gave my dad a phone call and berated him for his 'PC IBM fanboyism' in the early 80s when I was growing up. We were exclusively a PC home, which was fun, but I can't believe how amazing these little A8 computers are! A friend had a C64 that we did wardialing and things on, but that was really late in the pre-internet days. It's funny, too, because my dad exclusively used the computers for VIDEO GAMING! He was so into using computers to play games, yet refused to even acknowledge the game-playing superiority of the A8, C64, and Amiga. So funny giving him a hard time now!

Edited December 8, 2009 by CebusCapucinis

[Mirage]

One about Commodore that is pretty good is called "On The Edge" by Brian Bagnall.

 

One about text adventures (interactive fiction) that is really good, but maybe a bit academic, is called "Twisty Little Passages" by Montfort.

 

One about Atari is "Zap: The Rise and Fall of Atari" by Scott Cohen. This one has some pretty glaring factual errors and isn't the best written book ever, but I still recommend it because there's a lot of good stuff in there. And it's a short, easy read.

 

Hmmm... I'm trying to think of a good general one, but my mind is a blank at the moment. Oh, there's a bunch on Apple, but that's a little later than what you're probably mostly interested in. I can't think of the names, but I probably have 25 books on Apple alone. I think Apple Confidential was pretty good. Oh, a good general one is "Accidental Empires" by Robert X. Cringley. Now, that one is pretty gossipy, and may have some tall tales if I remember right, but you'll still get a lot of info and it's interesting and a good read. I think it mostly focuses on Microsoft and maybe some Apple... I don't remember there being too much about the smaller companies. Next up, look for books about the early history of Microsoft, of which there are many. MS was such a driving force from the beginning that it's interesting whether you like them or not. They influenced and affected everyone, obviously.

 

You're going to have a much harder time finding anything in book form on anyone other than MS, Apple, Atari and Commodore, which is too bad. But I'm sure there's a ton of info on the other companies on the internet. And if anyone knows of any books specifically about or including lots of info on the other companies, I'd sure like to hear about them too.

 

This week (or next at latest) I'm digging all my computer books out of the moving boxes, and I'm sure I'll see others that were good reads. I'll try to remember to post them up here. I have a whole library of retro computer books alone.

[Cebus Capucinis]

Cool thanks! Found both of them and added them to my Amazon wishlist. Merry Christmas to me

 

Actually I'm particularly interested in Commodore so that Commodore book you put on here is perfect! Thanks again!

Edited December 8, 2009 by CebusCapucinis

[FastRobPlus]

They still live on today: Wii, Xbox 360, Ps3. These are the modern home computers. The difference is that home computers now are more focused: Play a CD, play a DVD, stream some media, browse the web, update facebook, download casual stuff and of course play games.

[Mirage]

Enjoy. Especially the Commodore one.

[Mirage]

They still live on today: Wii, Xbox 360, Ps3. These are the modern home computers. The difference is that home computers now are more focused: Play a CD, play a DVD, stream some media, browse the web, update facebook, download casual stuff and of course play games.

 

Yeah, that's a point, but I don't really agree. The old computers were much more hobbiest-based. They were designed right from the start to be user-programmable. The new consoles can be programmed with a lot of effort, if you can get a dev kit or whatever, but they're not naturally open to that by the end user. You put it the best way yourself... they are now more focused. The C64, A8, HeathKits, TRS-80s, Apple ][s, etc were the opposite of that. They were general use machines by design. It all depends on how you look at it, and I do see your point, but I just don't see it that way. If you want to look at it like "what is a modern home computer", I think a modern PC or Mac is much closer to the spirit of an 8-bit home computer... general use, user-programmable, much more open to experimentation by any curious user.

 

Must sleep. Cheers.

[Cebus Capucinis]

They still live on today: Wii, Xbox 360, Ps3. These are the modern home computers. The difference is that home computers now are more focused: Play a CD, play a DVD, stream some media, browse the web, update facebook, download casual stuff and of course play games.

 

Hmm, good point! I never really thought of it that way, because we've got this compounded, standard idea of what a "computer" should be vs. "video game console". Technologically speaking it's gray area now!

 

....but then again, even in the late 70s/early 80s there were still differences. The VCS was obviously "not" a computer, but the Atari 800 was....

 

so complex!

[Mirage]

Yes, I do agree that it's a "gray area" now. Things have just changed so much, there are no direct parallels. It's just that the most important aspect about the old computers was the openness and general purpose design. A modern console is nearly the opposite of that in many ways. But, you can hack or tinker with anything. The technology has just changed so much.

[littleman jack]

I agree that the modern game consoles are computers. And I'd add ipods and other mp3 players as well as cell phones. These things are all variations on a similar thing, and seem to have more individual personalities as did the 8-bit computers. They each have different strengths and weaknesses like the 8-bit computers.

 

Plus, if you really want to program and develop for one, you can run linux on almost any of them, and program in python, ruby, or pearl. Check out on-disk.com for linux distros that run on almost anything. Quite fun to see linux running on a ps3 or xbox 360.

 

As far as modern pcs, laptops seem to have the greatest amounts of differences among different models. Less standardization than desktops. I agree that there was something cool about the lack of standardization in the 8-bit era. But the standardization that followed really did make computers much more affordable. And bland. Some good, some bad. Luckily we still have the oldies to play with, and now for much cheaper than in the original days.

[Mirage]

Oh, I see the point now about the modern game consoles... since they are all different OS's, different architectures and designs, different personalities. Okay, I can get behind that. Running Linux on them to program on them though, I don't know if that's the same, because then you're just standardizing them... you may as well just do that with a PC or Mac. But, different personalities in their stock form, competing companies, sure, that's similar to 8-bit era.

 

Obviously there are no direct parallels. They are very very very different from the 8-bits, but certainly do have some similarities too.

[FastRobPlus]

The closest thing I've seen in spirit to the old home computers in the modern era is the Smartphone. With Smartphones (Nokia, WinMo, Android, Palm, iPhone, etc) you get the wild west feel of doing some things for the first time. You also get that "not quite ready" glimpse of the future. For example, wasn't it cool when you scanned a business card with your phone and the OCR translated it into an Outlook contact? Or when you found an app to overclock the camera's LED light and made a blinding spotlight that drains your battery in 10 min? Or when you jailbroke the phone and installed android onto it? Or when you retrofit your car with stereo bluetooth and streamed your playlist from the phone to your bose speakers? Or when you played an augmented reality game using the camera? Or didn't have an internet connection for your laptop so tethered and used the 3G?

 

The list goes on - but only for enthusiasts right now. Someday in the future PDA/phones will really do all the things they promise and hint at now, and when that day comes it will be BORING! Today is the time of the hobbyist (now called the gadget freak) and we'll probably be reminiscing about all the things the early phones could/couldn't do back in the 2000's.

Edited December 8, 2009 by FastRobPlus

[carmel_andrews]

You forgot one Mirage....Home Computer Wars by Michael Tomczyk (JT's former assistant at CBM)

 

And also Daniel Sheff's book 'Game over' (about how nintendon't planned to take over what Atari created), which seems to follow on from Home computer wars, sort of,

[Curt Vendel]

Economics --- Almost all businesses went IBM/DOS. CP/M died off due to DOS' popularity.

 

Mac's held on because they generated enough revenue to keep innovating them. Schools and graphics arts companies were a solid area for Apple.

 

Amiga's and ST's just didn't make enough inroads in numbers to sustain them, their lack of mainstream apps in the same numbers as IBM/APPLE systems also was a serious blow to them as well. Some token apps did make it like MS Write, Wordperfect and a few others, but not enough.

 

1990 really spelled doom for non-PC/Mac systems as PC's finally were equipped with Windows 3.0 and Mac was always strong with its Apps. Atari should've worked with DRI and they should've gotten more of the ST apps over to the PC under GEM, also Ventura Publisher should've made it to the ST platform. With the cross platform support, they could've greatly helped GEM on the PC have a stronger base of apps for it.

 

 

Curt

 

It's pretty amazing to think about how the birth of the home computing industry led to such a wide variety of options for the home consumer. Commodore 64, Amiga, Atari 8bits/XE/ST, Vic-20, TI-99/4A, you name it! There was just SO much to offer out there. Everything had its perks, too, and every system did certain things better than others. I have been amazed at what each system had to offer and it's simply crazy! But it leads me to wonder:

 

What happened to make us go to this 'standard' option of PC/Mac? All the other companies hit the dirt, sure, but why? Why didn't we see a continuation of Amiga standards or utilization of Atari computer specs? Everything just sort of seems bland now my comparison. You've got your Intel standard, your AMD fare, and that's about it. To all you history gurus out there, what exactly happened? The standardization of Microsoft's OS software and limited compatibility? I'm very curious as to why there is really only the two computer standards now.

 

Also, what do you think computing would be like now if these offerings were continued? If none of these companies hit the dust and were still making products today? Say there's still an Atari computer being made, or an Amiga even. How would the market be different? What would be different technologically?

 

I think the market would benefit from it. The increase in competition would lead to greater technological advancements, and each company's "benefit" would be even greater, I think!

 

So what say you, AtariAgers? Why did we go to this PC-only or Mac standard? What would be different if we didn't?

[jhd]

You're going to have a much harder time finding anything in book form on anyone other than MS, Apple, Atari and Commodore, which is too bad. But I'm sure there's a ton of info on the other companies on the internet. And if anyone knows of any books specifically about or including lots of info on the other companies, I'd sure like to hear about them too.

 

While not exactly a history, there is the classic The soul of a new machine by Tracy Kidder (1981) that goes into some depth of the corporate inner workings Data General corporation (and, if memory serves, some of the other firms active at the time).

 

Obligatory link to Wikipedia article

Edited December 8, 2009 by jhd

[Mirage]

Hey, great additions to the list Carmel and jhd. I haven't yet bought Home Computer Wars, but will now, and the Kidder book I have, but have not yet read.

 

Any others? Surely there are others...

[+save2600]

Lots of good content here and as Mirage stated, the 70's-80's were simply fantastic times for computer geeks. We were a proud bunch and totally separate from the mainstream, unlike today.

 

Anyway, a book I absolutely adore is called: "Why Do You Need A Personal Computer?" lol And written by Lance A. Leventhal & Irvin Stafford. I bought this for $9 back in the day for my dad, who was super resistant to the notion; despite my enthusiasm for them. He even ran his own business, but was so acclimated to using index cards and files - just never subscribed to the notion of going digital. Can't fully fault him as his system worked and worked well - even with having up to 20,000 clients at one time.

 

The book is a fascinating read and chock full of genuine computing goodness of the time: A8, Commodore, TI, Radio Shack, Honeywell, Heathkit, Rockwell, HP, Compucolor, Apple, Signetics, OSI Challenger II, Altos, iCom, Imsai with most ALL of them illustrated in pictures. Book was written in 1981 and the ISBN on it reads:

 

0 471 04784-8

 

...the book is worth every penny! And I see it only costs that at Amazon

 

Taken from the back of the book:

 

"Sensible, detailed guidelines on the advantages and drawbacks of every type of personal computer. Sources of equipment and information. If you have been intrigued by the idea of owning your own computer or have been wondering whether a personal computer might be a worthwhile investment, this book will explain the possibilities, the alternatives and the problems. You don't have to be a mathematician or an engineer to read this book and learn to take advantage of this new, powerful technology".

Edited December 8, 2009 by save2600

[Cebus Capucinis]

Thanks save2600! Another one added to the Amazon wishlist! I've got like $1000 in books on there now, haha!

[Mirage]

Oh yeah, I have that one too, the Leventhal book... and a bunch of other old "intro" books that are pretty entertaining and have a lot of misc random computers in them. I've always gotten them at garage and library sales, but now your best bet is probably Amazon or <shudder> ebay. They will really give you a little taste of the feeling of how it was back then. Obviously, you'd be very well served by looking at old magazines too, like the pdf archives that have been passed around here. Compute! was a very popular and good magazine, and Compute!'s Gazette served Commodore specifically. There was an Apple variant for awhile as well. Try out as many old magazines as you can!

[iwan-iwanowitsch-goratschin]

Oh yeah, I have that one too, the Leventhal book... and a bunch of other old "intro" books that are pretty entertaining and have a lot of misc random computers in them. I've always gotten them at garage and library sales, but now your best bet is probably Amazon or <shudder> ebay. They will really give you a little taste of the feeling of how it was back then. Obviously, you'd be very well served by looking at old magazines too, like the pdf archives that have been passed around here. Compute! was a very popular and good magazine, and Compute!'s Gazette served Commodore specifically. There was an Apple variant for awhile as well. Try out as many old magazines as you can!

 

 

Thought you would go to bed, Chris???

Jesus, you are awake again!!! LOL

Edited December 8, 2009 by iwan-iwanowitsch-goratschin

[Cebus Capucinis]

He doesn't want to go to bed because he's enthralled by my amazing posts on this website.

[Mirage]

It's true... I am addicted to Iwan and Cebus's posts! I'm super motivated now to dig out all my books and post up my findings!

[atarian63]

It's pretty amazing to think about how the birth of the home computing industry led to such a wide variety of options for the home consumer. Commodore 64, Amiga, Atari 8bits/XE/ST, Vic-20, TI-99/4A, you name it! There was just SO much to offer out there. Everything had its perks, too, and every system did certain things better than others. I have been amazed at what each system had to offer and it's simply crazy! But it leads me to wonder:

 

What happened to make us go to this 'standard' option of PC/Mac? All the other companies hit the dirt, sure, but why? Why didn't we see a continuation of Amiga standards or utilization of Atari computer specs? Everything just sort of seems bland now my comparison. You've got your Intel standard, your AMD fare, and that's about it. To all you history gurus out there, what exactly happened? The standardization of Microsoft's OS software and limited compatibility? I'm very curious as to why there is really only the two computer standards now.

 

Also, what do you think computing would be like now if these offerings were continued? If none of these companies hit the dust and were still making products today? Say there's still an Atari computer being made, or an Amiga even. How would the market be different? What would be different technologically?

 

I think the market would benefit from it. The increase in competition would lead to greater technological advancements, and each company's "benefit" would be even greater, I think!

 

So what say you, AtariAgers? Why did we go to this PC-only or Mac standard? What would be different if we didn't?

The biggest things were VGA video, Standard MS OS after the MS vs OS2 thing was settled and a couple of great looking (not so much playing) game titles. Forget the names now but when those things came together along with the fact that people probably already had one at the office, it was off to the races for pc's! Very sad indeed..

[Cebus Capucinis]

Well, I think I've finally made up my mind on the 'new console' debacle. This is almost exactly what Mirage said with a bit more generalization:

 

Modern video game consoles are single-use devices unless you "hack" or modify them in some way, shape, or form. Their single intended use is pop in a video game and play said game. You won't be doing any work on them, you won't be making spreadsheets, you won't be typing reports, etc. etc. One single design purpose. Computers, however, are multi-function devices, even if their primary use is to play video games (for example the A8 computers and the C64). Even though the primary userbase may be the video game circle, video games were not the SOLE design purpose of the devices. They are intended to be used in businesses, for typing, calculating, etc.

 

I think the simple design intent statement is enough to segregate the modern consoles from what I intend to say when I talk about computers from that era. Cell phones? Sure, those could be included. Those are multi-function devices. I'd even include modified consoles like running Linux on an Xbox, but I want to clarify that no modification should be necessary in my definition.

 

Basically with a clearer definition it makes the questions simpler. By computer I mean a designed multi-functional device that may or may not be primarily used as a video game system. (Of course I'm not going to buy it if I can't play games on it, but that's my user decision and certainly not a DESIGN decision)

 

What company would all of you liked to have seen continue in the computer market (if you say Atari you got some 'splainin to do because that's the obvious choice)? Why would you have liked it? How do you think it would have improved more?

 

Personally I would have liked to see the Amigas continue. Their audio/visual capabilities just seemed so much further ahead of anyone else, and I think we would have seen the capabilities in animation and design further a lot sooner than we did with the PC/Mac standard. If the Amiga wouldn't have failed I don't think Apple would have taken the crown for imaging/video.