Ahead of its time...

[atarian63]

I feel the Dreamcast lacked a "killer app". Sonic Adventure was supposed to fill this role, but instead they made a nice looking tech demo (especially the whale chasing part.) I still can't find a decent game in there somewhere.

 

The console had tons of quality games for a handful of somewhat niche markets, but no head-turning titles.

House of the Dead 2 WAS THE killer app. I paid over $100 for my Japanese version to have it 6 months early. Still play it.

[tz101]

Regarding OP:

 

Most of it boils down to fickle consumer tastes and popular perception (see VHS vs. Betamax). If some parents were thinking of investing in a game system for their kid around the time of the Jaguar release, might they just hold on a little longer until the next greatest thing (read Playstation) came along? I mean its not like Sega and Nintendo suddenly stopped releasing quality games about that time either. Look at Donkey Kong Country for SNES compared to Jaguar games in general. No real advantage in getting that system if I am a parent making wise financial decisions.

 

Same reasoning goes with 3D0, Dreamcast, or any such failed venture. Mainly poor timing for entering the crowded gaming marketplace along with word-of-mouth about greater things to come. Everybody learned lessons with Betamax and laser disc video formats in the 80s. They will try their best not to be burned that way again.

[Rev. Rob]

 

Same reasoning goes with 3D0, Dreamcast, or any such failed venture. Mainly poor timing for entering the crowded gaming marketplace along with word-of-mouth about greater things to come.

 

3DO was basically first in the market and the reason it did bad wasn't for anything other than a business model that doesn't work in console gaming. The model caused the console to be $800 and that just didn't fly with consumers.

 

I am not really sure that Dreamcast fits well alongside 3DO, Jaguar, or CD-i. Dreamcast was very successful. It turned 9.9.99 into the largest entertainment launch in history, eclipsing all other video game and Hollywood records. Dreamcast also didn't die from attrition or atrophy. It was cancelled in the height of its success. Sega was in the black for the first time in seven years and it bested PS2 that Christmas. The company just wanted to be a publisher, and now they're a shell of their former self.

[SeanXTC]

*kicks self in teeth*

 

SNES and Megadrive were 16 bit... Don't know what I was thinking there.

 

The point I was making about the Phillips CDI was it used CD format, and was released in 1991. That was ahead of its time... I can't say for sure if the MegaCD was before or after that?

 

Back to the Dreamcast... When I was at school a few friends had the N64, only 1 had Dreamcast and the rest were like me who had the Playstation. The friends with the N64 used to mock and call it the "Greystation".... Ah good times.

 

NEC's Turbo Express? What is that? Don't know if they were released here in England? *does a quick google search* Oh man, that looks cool! Still can't recall that being in England... I am sure I would have known about it.

 

Finaly back to the Lynx... Ok, portability, and battery life (the fact it needed 6 of the bugers too)... I can understand that. But I still really belive that thing is a great handheld and should have been a sucess. Shame.

[Eltigro]

Here's my take.

 

Jaguar and Lynx: I don't think Atari ever truly recovered their brand's respect after the crash. People still associated Atari with the loads of crap games that came out during that period. Lynx was technologically superior to the Game Boy, but if I remember correctly, it also cost more, had shorter battery life, and, as others have said, lacked big name games like Tetris. Not to say it wasn't fun, just that people didn't want to trust their money on an Atari product. The Jaguar was also probably more advanced, but had some of the same troubles as the Lynx (fear of Atari, library). The Jag also had the distinction of being difficult to program for, so many companies, even if they decided to develop games for the Jaguar, had difficulty producing quality games. I've also heard that some people didn't like the somewhat condescending "Do the Math" ads.

 

Dreamcast: As others have said, SEGA had difficulty selling the DC because many consumers still had a bad taste in their mouth from the 32X and Saturn. Both the 32X and Saturn were excellent systems, but SEGA didn't have them on the market with official support long enough for developers and consumers to reap their bounty. Developers were actually really unhappy with how fast SEGA pulled out on the Saturn and many pretty much refused to develop for the Dreamcast. If both the 32X and the Saturn had been given longer development cycles, I think they may have been a little more appreciated. Also, as someone else said, Sony put on an amazing show of advertising hype for the PS2. Many people passed over the DC because they were okay with waiting a year or more for the system Sony was hyping.

 

TG-16 or anything else NEC: No big name games. None of the best games released in North America. Terrible advertising and apathetic distribution. On the CD addon, and TurboExpress, high cost didn't help. I was an early adopter on the TG-16 and still have my original system. It suffered from being a "between" system. It came after the NES and before the Genesis in Japan. The games were a huge jump above the NES and the PC-Engine ruled the market in Japan. But they waited too long to bring it to North America and it ended up competing with the SEGA Genesis; SEGA's most successful system.

 

There are other systems out there that didn't fare that well either, but most of them suffered mainly from a lack of brand recognition, high cost, shoddy games, or a combination of the above. These include the CD-i and 3DO.

 

It makes me wonder what future consumers will think of things such as the 360's RRoD problems and the tons of casual games and shovelware for the Wii...

[johnny_boy]

 

• Soul Calibur
• Sonic Adventure
• Grandia II
• Skies of Arcadia
• Shenmue
• Resident Evil: Code Veronica
• Jet Grind Radio
• Phantasy Star Online
• Dead or Alive 2
• Crazy Taxi

 

From what I remember, Soul Caliber was the one game in this list to have a lot of hype and delivering upon it. I'm talking specifically about market reception, sales and media conversations. I admit though that I might be biased because of my contemporary outlook. Not many of those games have aged graciously.

[8th lutz]

Here is my take:

 

Lynx and Jaguar: People not respecting Atari brand is a small part of the problem. The amount of battery life for the lynx is a small part of the turn off for the system. Lynx was more expensive than the Game Boy was and was much bigger in size. I didn't remember a lot of stores selling Atari Jaguar and Atari Lynx games compare to Sega and Nintendo at the time. I remembered not seeing a lynx or a Jaguar at places like Target, sears and Kmart for an example back in the 1990's. The fact I saw the Atari Jaguar in less store than the Atari Lynx even. Lynx and the Jaguar lacked 3rd party support. The Atari Jaguar being difficult to program didn't help matters. Atari Jaguar's other problems were the the Jaguar CD was delayed and was released middle of the 16 bit era.

 

Dreamcast - Sega of America mishandling the Saturn was a part of the problem. 32x and the Sega Cd did play a factor into it also. Playstation 2 was being hyped around the time Sega Dreamcast came out in North America and it played factor into it. Sega Dreamcast had good games, but didn't have a game that is a system seller. Sega released the System in Japan Nov. 1998 and that was a problem in technology compare to the Playstation 2, Gamecube and Xbox. Sega also had the problem of not using DVD discs.

 

Tg-16/Turbo duo/Turbo CD/Turbo Express: Turbo Duo and the Turbo CD were more expensive than other systems out at the time. To make Matters worse, 44 disc based games were released in North America. That means the CD part of the system wasn't supported well in North America. Turbo Express was the original Sega Nomad, but the price turned gamers off. Nec was more successful in Japan than North America because more 3rd parties were supporting the TG-16/Turbo Duo in Japan despite being a in between system. A good amount Tg-16 and CD based games left in Japan were the best games for the system. What caused the lack of 3rd party of support was Nintendo of America still had their 3rd party exclusive policy in the late 1980's and early 1990's. North America was left with niche titles to the average gamer. The other problem with system is the fact you needed a turbo tap to use more than controller at a time.

 

Neo Geo Pocket Color: Great system despite it's small amount of games. The problem was every gamer wanted a Game Boy color because you could play Gameboy games on it and the Gameboy line existed for a very line time be the time Snk got into portable gaming. The other things not going for it was the fact there was little 3rd party support for it and not a lot of stores carried the system.

Edited March 14, 2010 by 8th lutz

[kool kitty89]

3DO was basically first in the market and the reason it did bad wasn't for anything other than a business model that doesn't work in console gaming. The model caused the console to be $800 and that just didn't fly with consumers.

 

For 3DO, business model was a big part of it, but not all. It was still expensive hardware, coming a bit early and having some significant limitations hardware wise (and poor trade-offs in hindsight). If they'd sold it close to cost, used a cost-optimized form factor, and switched to a 1x speed CD drive, they might have gotten it into a reasonable price range for 1993 without compromising the base hardware further. However the hardware had significant problems, most notably the CPU having no cache and sharing the main bus with the GPU (so some of the same kind of bandwidth trade-offs as the Jaguar), then there's the decision they made for the GPU to rasterize quadrilateral primitives rather than triangles. (rather like the saturn -with triangels being pretty much the common standard, though some do prefer quads)

The plus was that it has a very friendly programming environment, everything optimized for coding in C, so a bit like the PSX (or DC) in that respect, and highly contrasting with the Jaguar or Saturn.

The multimedia aspect wasn't bad, neither was the VCD expansion (though most useful in ASIA, where the format popularized), and a 1x speed drive wouldnt have compromised the VCD capabilities, though it would 1/2 the maximum bitrate, so could reduce the quality of cinepak video used in-game. (assuming a lot of said video actually used a 2x data-rate) If they used their own, custom CD-ROM controller, the cost difference between a 1x and 2x speed drive would have been far less significant and the benefits would likely have outweighed the cost. (CD32 managed $400 in Europe in 1993)

 

I am not really sure that Dreamcast fits well alongside 3DO, Jaguar, or CD-i. Dreamcast was very successful. It turned 9.9.99 into the largest entertainment launch in history, eclipsing all other video game and Hollywood records. Dreamcast also didn't die from attrition or atrophy. It was cancelled in the height of its success. Sega was in the black for the first time in seven years and it bested PS2 that Christmas. The company just wanted to be a publisher, and now they're a shell of their former self.

Yeah, Sega screwed themselves in the mid 90s (pretty much 1994 through 1998 outside Japan), it was do or die with the DC and they almost pulled it off. They just couldn't afford any big screw-ups and there ended up being a couple, like the CD-R problem (regardless of how much a problem it really was, the perceived threat was there to deter developers from an already shaky company). Then there's all sony's hype surrounding the PS2 and its DVD capabilities (and dumped price). Sega didn't think it could stand up to that, but in hindsight, with how much they struggled as a 3rd party (ending up being bought out) and the limited success of the GC and Xbox shows they might have been better off hanging on to the DC a bit longer while transitioning to software only. (already putting more and more emphasis on PC releases, they might have even managed some cross-platform releases while the DC was still alive too) It probably outsold the Xbox in Japan as it was.

 

The DC was going like there was no tomorrow initially, but the PS2 hype and some issues (CD-R among those) caught up with it; still Sega seemed to have gained back its North American market to some degree aster the severe slump of the Saturn, even more so in Europe compared to the sharp decline of that once Sega-Friendly region. (and weaker in Japan than Saturn, rather like previous Sega consoles)

 

 

 

The point I was making about the Phillips CDI was it used CD format, and was released in 1991. That was ahead of its time... I can't say for sure if the MegaCD was before or after that?

The CD-i hadn't been intended as a game console though, rather a multimedia entertainment system, especially an audio CD player, and introducing the VCD format, the games were a secondary feature, though intended from the start I'd imagine. (kind of the opposite of the 3DO, a game system first, and multimedia entertainment machine second)

One could argue that VCD itsself was ahead of its time due to the limitations of a 1x speed bitrate and MPEG-1 compression lackign a significant quality advantage over VHS (and inferior video to SVHS and LaserDisc) as well as lacking the recording ability of a VCR, though it did popularize in Asia.

 

 

 

 

Jaguar and Lynx: I don't think Atari ever truly recovered their brand's respect after the crash. People still associated Atari with the loads of crap games that came out during that period. Lynx was technologically superior to the Game Boy, but if I remember correctly, it also cost more, had shorter battery life, and, as others have said, lacked big name games like Tetris. Not to say it wasn't fun, just that people didn't want to trust their money on an Atari product. The Jaguar was also probably more advanced, but had some of the same troubles as the Lynx (fear of Atari, library). The Jag also had the distinction of being difficult to program for, so many companies, even if they decided to develop games for the Jaguar, had difficulty producing quality games. I've also heard that some people didn't like the somewhat condescending "Do the Math" ads.

I don't think the Stigma of the gaming crash had much to do with it, the 2600 Jr an 7800 sold surprisingly well post crash in light of Nintendo's market dominance. By the time of the Jaguar though, in the US, the Atari name may have had an old/outdated stigma to it for some. (probably not so much for Europe though given the popularity of the ST)

 

I think the Lynx was a good bit more popular in Europe, especially in particular regions (generally the less Nintendo engorged ones and those where the ST sold best), I've heard comments that the Lynx was significantly more popular than the GameGear in the UK (albeit weaker than the GB).

 

I wouldn't say being ahead of their times (on a basic level) really had much to do with the Lynx and Jag's limited success. ad the Lynx been launched in a different form factor it would have changed thing s lot; ie a non-backlit screen and a unit as compact as possible -possible a simple switchable frontlit screen like wristwatches from the time -odd that Nintendo didn't do that until a decade later. (same base hardware -though direct ROM access would have helped too)

The company backing it obviously had an impact, namely int he number of developers they attracted (and 1st party games) and the advertising budgets.

 

The Jag had significant hardware issues (some tied to poor choices at the insistence of management), limiting its capabilities and making it a huge pain to program for; on top of that were poor development tools. (in sharp contrast to the Lynx's quite clean tool set) Then there's the general management problems, advertising, and general weak/unstable condition Atari Corp was in at the time.

For the Record, I like the early "Get bit by Jaguar" slogan more than "Do the Math!." (something like "get bit by 64 bits" might have been good too)

 

TG-16 or anything else NEC: No big name games. None of the best games released in North America. Terrible advertising and apathetic distribution. On the CD addon, and TurboExpress, high cost didn't help.

The fact that the PC-Engine CD caught on so strongly (followed by the integrated duo units and upgraded system cards) in Japan didn't help matters either. In the JP market, CDs pretty much became the de-facto format for the system, so many titles only came out on CD or had to get card conversions for the west. (prior to all support being dropped)

Given their market strategy, it's really too bad they didn't try for Europe, it's much better suited to the business model which led to the Japanese success than the expansive North American market. (that and lacked the stiff Nintendo owned market compared to the US -with the 8-bit market divided between the NES, SMS, and several home computers -mainly C64 and Speccy)

 

 

 

Lynx and Jaguar: People not respecting Atari brand is a small part of the problem. The amount of battery life for the lynx is a small part of the turn off for the system. Lynx was more expensive than the Game Boy was and was much bigger in size. I didn't remember a lot of stores selling Atari Jaguar and Atari Lynx games compare to Sega and Nintendo at the time.

The battery usage and cost could have been addressed somewhat by removing the backlight, and size could have been reduced significantly over the original model. (possibly even smaller than the GameGear -odd that Sega never introduced a non-backlit GG either -cheaprr, smaller and much less power hungry)

One big problem regardless is the software library and advertising compared to Sega or Nintendo.

 

Sega released the System in Japan Nov. 1998 and that was a problem in technology compare to the Playstation 2, Gamecube and Xbox. Sega also had the problem of not using DVD discs.

Hardware was pretty competitive with the PS2 (superior in some respects -liek textures and antialiasing), reaonable to compete I'd say. The GD-ROM was fine too, there was no way Sega could have gone for the price range necessary with a DVD drive (let alone DVD video capabilities), Sony resorted to huge dumps to the price of the hardware to facilitate this (same for MS so some extent), and GC didn't opto for full sized DVD or DVD video capabilities. Lacking out-of-the-box VCD playback support was a bit odd though, the DC should have easily handled that in software. (and VCDs would have been a selling point int he Asian market) Edited March 15, 2010 by kool kitty89