Tempest Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 Tramiel screwed over Atari if you can't see that than oh well. Because you're suddenly the expert on Atari now? Tempest 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homerwannabee Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 Tramiel screwed over Atari if you can't see that than oh well. Because you're suddenly the expert on Atari now? Tempest No I am not the expert on Atari, but this seems to be the topic of discussion a million times over in the Atari 7800 forums. Most people do not like this guy. Go to any Atari 7800 discussion about him, and see what they think of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectorGamer Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 To wgungfu and Curt Vendel, the two guys "in the know": Turning things around to the positive, what did Nolan Bushnell bring to the table for Atari and although pure speculation, how successful do you think Atari would have been without his involvement? And could you folks give us insight into your credibility? For example, according to wgungfu's profile, he is 13 months and 1 day younger than I am and it begs the question as to where the inside slant could be coming from. Don't read into any deeper than it is as there is no ill intent behind my question. I see the names on the boards and association with Flashback consoles but that's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retro Rogue Posted April 21, 2010 Author Share Posted April 21, 2010 (edited) So let me get this straight. LOL, as evidenced below you're still not getting it straight. Any wrongs Tramiel is accused of it seems that you are defending. Nope. Any misinformation I'm seeing, regardless of who it's about, I'm correcting. Any credit given to Bushnell you are completely bashing. See above. Bushnell has been given an inordinate amount of credit for things he didn't do, and Tramiel has an inordinate amount of lambasting for things we later found were also inaccurate. There's plenty of other things to bash Tramiel about, and there's other things to praise Nolan about (as we've clearly stated regarding his ability to make deals). Trying to paint it as anything else is just a poor argumentative strategy on your part. So in your view you see Tramiel as this great manager, and Bushnell as just a huckster. Nope, never said that. But please, keep talking for me, it's certainly entertaining. I think I have seen everything now. Apparently you're still seeing nothing. Bashing Bushnell is one thing but defending a guy who many people despise here is another thing. Tramiel screwed over Atari if you can't see that than oh well. If you want to praise Bushnell and bash Tramiel, by all means go ahead, there's plenty to it for in both of those regards. If you're going to base it on incorrect information like you did, I'm going to call you on it and give the correct info. It's that simple. Anything else is simply you trying to read things in to motivation that simply isn't there. Edited April 21, 2010 by wgungfu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retro Rogue Posted April 21, 2010 Author Share Posted April 21, 2010 (edited) And could you folks give us insight into your credibility? For example, according to wgungfu's profile, he is 13 months and 1 day younger than I am and it begs the question as to where the inside slant could be coming from. You might want to reread through the long thread, we already stated what our long process of research and vetting is, including sources we go by, multiple times. Even during my last post with regards to the 7800. Though with over 3,000 posts here, I'm finding it hard to believe that's all you ran across here regarding Curt or myself is the Flashback consoles. Edited April 21, 2010 by wgungfu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cebus Capucinis Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 Off-topic: Can I get both of you (Curt & Marty) to sign my copy of both books? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homerwannabee Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 So let me get this straight. LOL, as evidenced below you're still not getting it straight. Any wrongs Tramiel is accused of it seems that you are defending. Nope. Any misinformation I'm seeing, regardless of who it's about, I'm correcting. Any credit given to Bushnell you are completely bashing. See above. Bushnell has been given an inordinate amount of credit for things he didn't do, and Tramiel has an inordinate amount of lambasting for things we later found were also inaccurate. There's plenty of other things to bash Tramiel about, and there's other things to praise Nolan about (as we've clearly stated regarding his ability to make deals). Trying to paint it as anything else is just a poor strategy on your part. So in your view you see Tramiel as this great manager, and Bushnell as just a huckster. Nope, never said that. But please, keep talking for me, it's certainly entertaining. I think I have seen everything now. Apparently you're still seeing nothing. Bashing Bushnell is one thing but defending a guy who many people despise here is another thing. Tramiel screwed over Atari if you can't see that than oh well. If you want to praise Bushnell and bash Tramiel, by all means go ahead, there's plenty to it for in both of those regards. If you're going to base it on incorrect information like you did, I'm going to call you on it and give the correct info. It's that simple. Anything else is simply you trying to read things in to motivation that simply isn't there. Well you are going off new information, and I am going off old information. The old information seems to put Bushnell in a more favorable light, and the old information seems to put Tramiel in a negative light. The new information seems to make this world topsy turvy. I guess I will wait awhile. If five years from now your new information is still credible among the community at large, than I will have to reluctantly go along with your version of the story. But I have been a member here for almost 7 years, and the info before last week that I have seen has been the old info. I am sorry but I just can't change my way of thinking over night. I have to at least give it a wait, and see approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectorGamer Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 And could you folks give us insight into your credibility? For example, according to wgungfu's profile, he is 13 months and 1 day younger than I am and it begs the question as to where the inside slant could be coming from. You might want to reread through the long thread, we already stated what our long process of research and vetting is, including sources we go by, multiple times. Even during my last post with regards to the 7800. Though with over 3,000 posts here, I'm finding it hard to believe that's all you ran across here regarding Curt or myself is the Flashback consoles. Yeah, I could only muster pages 1-3 of this thread... One or both of you guys know Richie "Knucklez", right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Random Terrain Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 Though with over 3,000 posts here, I'm finding it hard to believe that's all you ran across here regarding Curt or myself is the Flashback consoles. He might be kind of like me. I know some of the stuff that Curt has done, but I know very little about you. I've missed a lot of threads over the years and the threads I do look in, I usually don't remember who said what or who did what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Random Terrain Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 Well you are going off new information, and I am going off old information. The old information seems to put Bushnell in a more favorable light, and the old information seems to put Tramiel in a negative light. The new information seems to make this world topsy turvy. I guess I will wait awhile. If five years from now your new information is still credible among the community at large, than I will have to reluctantly go along with your version of the story. But I have been a member here for almost 7 years, and the info before last week that I have seen has been the old info. I am sorry but I just can't change my way of thinking over night. I have to at least give it a wait, and see approach. Don't fall for it. It's all part of the Illuminati plan to wreck your childhood memories. Keep the faith! Don't stop believin'! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cebus Capucinis Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 Don't fall for it. It's all part of the Illuminati plan to wreck your childhood memories. Keep the faith! Don't stop believin'! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmel_andrews Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 Perhaps it's a bad idea to releasing both books, since we'll be still arguing those points again and again since some people won't accept and some people will and most people just don't care and enjoy a good read to fill in the time Perhaps if Phillips had bought Atari or CBM or someone else, wouldn't have made Atari anymore successful, would we still be talking about this if Baer really did want to take Atari to the cleaners (instead of settling for an out of court settlement) One thing i do know is, Warner's do seem to have bad luck with tech related companies (strangely they are or at least were both of American origins and both began with A) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homerwannabee Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 Well it seems things were different just a little over 10 years ago. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Random Terrain Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 Well it seems things were different just a little over 10 years ago. I don't know what that is. The image is too small when clicked on. Is it two little people arm wrestling? Maybe it's an electronic farting contest. Is that why they are bent over? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homerwannabee Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 Well it seems things were different just a little over 10 years ago. I don't know what that is. The image is too small when clicked on. Is it two little people arm wrestling? Maybe it's an electronic farting contest. Is that why they are bent over? Person on the left is Nolan, and the person on the right is Curt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Leach Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 Off-topic: Can I get both of you (Curt & Marty) to sign my copy of both books? CL was unaware CC could Read? (off-topic as well...sorry) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retro Rogue Posted April 21, 2010 Author Share Posted April 21, 2010 Well you are going off new information, and I am going off old information. Fair enough. Though it's not that new, this is stuff (meaning the multiple topics we were just discussing in this thread) we've and others have been talking about here in various stages for the past 9 years. The biggest explosion in material that could be considered "new" was stuff we uncovered the Amiga material last year, completely blowing RJ Mical's previous claims out of the water. I am sorry but I just can't change my way of thinking over night. I have to at least give it a wait, and see approach. And that's certainly your prerogative, and I don't fault you for it. That's precisely the approach we've taken with material as well, especially "revelations" of the people we interview. Until we get things repeated and verified by multiple people and sources, we take it with a grain of salt. Like for example, we were told recently by one of the Blue Sky Rangers that the Intellivision was actually done and held off for a year because of Nolan's leaving and supposedly poor sales of the 2600 which made "Intellivision executives feel Atari was going to be leaving the consumer market" and why the test marketing was first done in late '79 (almost a year after Nolan left Atari). I actively started interviewing some of the earlier Mattel Electronics people, and digging up press releases and coverage at the time to try and corroborate it, besides us matching it up to Atari's own internal sales figures regarding 2600 sales, all in an effort to corroborate the story. Things just didn't match up with it for the most part, other than yes, the Intellivision was actually started in '76/'77 and completed by the end of '78. The evidence towards a holding off due to the reason and time period he gave did not match up however. '77 sales were strong and completely sold out. It was the Fall '78 sales (since console sales were still just seasonal at the time) that they had problems with (mainly because of manufacturing delays that cause almost no orders for further shipments after the first allotments sold out), and Nolan left that December. However, those being a reason or that they held off for a year until the late '79 test market in Fresno are conflicted with the fact that the Intellivision was then immediately showed and launched at the January '79 CES (literally a month later). And it was actively promoted through the entire Spring and Summer, including the Playcable announcement that Spring, peripheral announcements, etc. Just a lot of active press coverage and interviews promoting the Intellivision as the company's new direction. Likewise I found they were already giving them away through 7up and a competition they started running that August. From my interviews with ex-Mattel Electronics people, it's appearing the confusion is that there was some sort of delay during the development process itself, not that it was ready and sat for a year. That executives were worried because of working on an expensive consumer product at a time when they were facing much publicized financial problems (which ultimately lead to a removal of people who had been with the company for years). Mattel was literally filing quarterly losses from the mid 70's up through the end of '79. I'm still finishing up interviews regarding the actual development process to dot the i's and cross the t's before I can even corroborate that there was a development process delay. But the initial "revelation" (or claim) we were given has been adequately disproven. But hopefully this further explains the thought process, research, and vetting process we go through (which is not that far removed from your concerns) with every single bit of info we come across or are given. And why this process has been so agonizingly slow, or what we mean when we say each question answered uncovers 5 others. During the interviews with the Mattel Electronics people in regards to this, there's been a multitude of other questions and avenues that now need to be taken regarding development at the time in general (not specifically related to the original question). All from just trying to corroborate the original single statement. Or when we went to answer and clear up the Amiga mishmash and in the process uncovered a cornucopia of other projects, teams, experiences, documents, etc. from before the split that we're now actively researching as well. That's why it's been so hard to give an ETA to everyone that asks, because we don't want to just throw info out there like previous books have done (that was a big problem with Kent's book). We're well aware anything put out will be scrutinized - that's what drove us to want to do this in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wood_jl Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 So let me get this straight. Any wrongs Tramiel is accused of it seems that you are defending. Any credit given to Bushnell you are completely bashing. So in your view you see Tramiel as this great manager, and Bushnell as just a huckster. I think I have seen everything now. Bashing Bushnell is one thing but defending a guy who many people despise here is another thing. Tramiel screwed over Atari if you can't see that than oh well. The Tramiel bashing is just as bad as the Bushnell worship. I understand wanting to be critical of Tramiel as well, but it mostly stems from my being a kid during those years and not understanding the situation. Bushnell was at Atari so long ago I would have been in kindergarten (maybe???) and of course had never heard of Atari then, so there is no way I could understand any of that, and so the romantic nostalgia has been a big source of information. But people act like Tramiel had a magic wand and could have waved it and perfected everything, but that he didn't. I think he has proven himself as a fighter, tactician, and shrewed businessman when I look back now as an ADULT. Imagine the long shot that they had to overcome. They had little (relatively speaking) money, yet they successfully developed the ST (whether you care for ST or not) and marketed it and turned the company around. The thing was a pretty good computer, and certainly the best value on the market by a long shot. After quitting/getting canned at Commodore, I think he did pretty well. Atari Corp. wasn't the huge company people think it was, but rather small, with very limited resources. Yet it's still a popular pastime to be an armchair quarterback with 25 years hindsight, yet NO details or knowledge of what the details of the business decisions were that Tramiel made. Why????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 the Intellivision was actually started in '76/'77 and completed by the end of '78. I did not know that. You learn something new every day. Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retro Rogue Posted April 21, 2010 Author Share Posted April 21, 2010 Well it seems things were different just a little over 10 years ago. Yes, as I mentioned, Curt had a regular and professional relationship with Nolan. His experiences and the interviews and material he's contributed regarding him is not just coming from out of left field from somebody who didn't know him. But it's still a cordial enough relationship to allow us to continue to email Nolan and ask him things in an effort to get his viewpoint. Like I already said, when we contacted him regarding Ted's revelation that he didn't get scared or simply want out. That Nolan forced him out. And Nolan verified it via email, including stating that it was nothing personal it was just business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmel_andrews Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 (edited) Question is...Since Baer sued Nolan over Pong, did Nolan sue Baer (and Mattel) over Simon (since it was copied from Touch Me) There again, both Baer's and Nolan's first products (games) were essentially copies of someone else's games anyway (computer space=spacewar and Video tennis/tele tennis=tennis for two, the one that higginbotham demo'ed at Brookhaven) Was Phillips really interested in getting half of atari, I don't thing so, since Phillips hadn't done great things with Magnavox (who had the various odyssey systems) or was it that Magnavox didn't really exercise the advantage they had by being owned by phillips, and also Phillips had just signed up to the MSX consortium and became the only European company to do so (at the time) Edited April 21, 2010 by carmel_andrews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 I don't bare any ill-will towards Nolan, he seemed like a really nice guy when I talked to him. I was just sort of surprised when I found out he was more like a businessman/salesman and not like a old programmer. I guess I had this idea of what he should be like in my head (as I'm guessing we all do) and was shocked when he wasn't anything like it. Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DracIsBack Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 Yeah, that is Marty and my latest quest - to find a copy of Nolan's porn flick, we've got several very good leads, so we are in "hot pursuit" Ewww! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iwan-iwanowitsch-goratschin Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 No Nolan....no Atari.........no Atariage........... Hey Thank you Nolan. I hope you make ya day down in France! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DracIsBack Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 No I am not the expert on Atari, but this seems to be the topic of discussion a million times over in the Atari 7800 forums. Most people do not like this guy. Go to any Atari 7800 discussion about him, and see what they think of him. There are two ways to think about this. If I think about this purely as a 7800 fan, Tramiel did piss me off. I never saw commercials on tv, I felt like he chinced on games, licensing and development for that system and that he seemed to do everything he could to stand in the way of the machine succeeding. Even walking into Atari's limited retail channels and seeing the 7800 have to compete with the 2600jr and XEGS for limited resources (let alone the SMS and NES) was infuriating. If I think about this from a business perspective, it's easy to spend money when it isn't yours. And it's certainly human to be an armchair CEO. He probably reads these forums and laughs at all the Atari-Agers who've taken a break from running their own 400+ million dollar companies in order to give Jack business and strategy advice. Look at one he inherited in 1984 ... a mess of a company with business in a (then) collapsing industry, a revolting retail channel and enough red ink to fill an ocean. Can't say I blame him for being 'cautious' looking at it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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