I think now I understand why the NES beat the 7800

[Lynxpro]

Actually didn't Atari Games get 70,000 shares for games they licensed to Atari Corp? Exactly what games were these? It was a combination for 2600, 7800, Lynx etc.

 

There's a note in one of the annual reports that they gave them shares in lieu of payment (which was overdue).

 

 

 

Time Warner actually negotiated the stock deal settlement between Atari Corp and Atari Games Corp. From 1991 through 1994, Time Warner was increasing their holdings in Atari Corp. and courted the Tramiels to sell.

[kool kitty89]

Actually didn't Atari Games get 70,000 shares for games they licensed to Atari Corp? Exactly what games were these? It was a combination for 2600, 7800, Lynx etc.

 

There's a note in one of the annual reports that they gave them shares in lieu of payment (which was overdue).

 

 

 

Time Warner actually negotiated the stock deal settlement between Atari Corp and Atari Games Corp. From 1991 through 1994, Time Warner was increasing their holdings in Atari Corp. and courted the Tramiels to sell.

When were they trying to buy Atari Corp?

 

It was my impression that few wanted anything to do with Atari Corp by late '92/93 with their financial position as it was with the downward spiral following Sam taking over. (by '93, the company was down to a skeleton of what it was when Sam took over iirc and they only reason the likes of TWI and IBM were willing to partner over the Jag was due to the successful hype generated in 1993 -one of the few things Sam managed to do fairly well what at Atari, especially given the circumstances -granted, circumstances that he largely contributed to creating)

 

If TWI could have negotiated a merger with Atari Corp back in '91, that would probably have been their best bet at getting things on track (1989 or 1990 would have been better though). Their funding and support may have been able to correct many of the management issues and investment in advertising and R&D could have been very substantial for both the Lynx's sales and Jaguar development/launch, and even the computers (if managed right, they still had a chance to maintain a niche market in the US, but more so, they had a chance to remain on the mass market in Europe -especially as CMB failed)

[malducci]

No one is demoaning Nintendo's success. What is fact is that Atari's 7800 is a superior system

and with a little less head up ass syndrome on Atari's part, the NES would have gone nowhere

mainly based on techincal merits of the system AND the software by Nintendo themselves.

 

By the time Nintendo practiced their illegal monopolistic licensing, Atari did not have

any choice but to deal with their own classic titles which are by far more playable than

anything Nintendo has released. For those Nintendo fanboys that have the balls to dare

bitch about Atari and their rehashes, no one has milked off of one theme as much as

Nintendo's Mario...

 

Wow, hate Nintendo much? I've seen your posts around the forum. Didn't some Nintendo kids kick the crap out of you as a kid or something? I can understand that there probably was some level of resentment towards Nintendo back then. Atari once a king, brought to its knees and almost forgotten while Nintendo became this incredible success. But that was soooo many years ago. Grown adults spitting bitter words nowadays, for nothing really more than toys of their childhood. This isn't specifically to you (The_Laird for example who can't quite keep himself from making snide remarks for any system he doesn't like, whenever he gets the chance), but quite a few members in general. It just seems by now, most people would have already ventured outside their beloved circle of choice to appreciate games on other systems, since - ... the war is long over with. It's not limited to AA, but man - it's much more intense here (or maybe it just a handful of members with reoccurring posts). It just seems silly to hold such intense resentment.

 

 

 

That aside (and the main reason I responded), tell me what's superior about the 7800 over the NES in the context of that generation? I only have a general idea of how the video setup specifics, work. The devil is ALWAYS in the details, which is why I'm asking. What does it have that allows it to adapt beyond the 83/84 arcade era? Both arcade and home console/computer games were making the transition to scrolling detail map(tiles/tilemap) based games. I know it's been said the 7800 strengths lay in its object per screen handling, but what about other video aspects like high background detail and coupled with 8-way scrolling? NES hardware excelled at making it extremely easy handle both these tasks, and color management as well, for software developers. One recent interview with a NES UK developer compared the NES handling of these attributes a lot easier than even the Amiga (of their experience of a range of home computers). Nothing in the library gives any indication of superiority to the NES generations of games (the life cycle of the sytem). Homebrew is looking good, but nothing as of yet that makes NES look inferior or blows it away. Sound wise, I don't see how Pokey is superior to the NES APU. Have you looked at the APU in detail? It's a fairly advanced 8bit sound chip. Kind of incredible when you think that the NES originally came out in 1983.

[Tubular Gearhead]

No one is demoaning Nintendo's success. What is fact is that Atari's 7800 is a superior system

and with a little less head up ass syndrome on Atari's part, the NES would have gone nowhere

mainly based on techincal merits of the system AND the software by Nintendo themselves.

 

By the time Nintendo practiced their illegal monopolistic licensing, Atari did not have

any choice but to deal with their own classic titles which are by far more playable than

anything Nintendo has released. For those Nintendo fanboys that have the balls to dare

bitch about Atari and their rehashes, no one has milked off of one theme as much as

Nintendo's Mario...

 

Wow, hate Nintendo much? I've seen your posts around the forum. Didn't some Nintendo kids kick the crap out of you as a kid or something? I can understand that there probably was some level of resentment towards Nintendo back then. Atari once a king, brought to its knees and almost forgotten while Nintendo became this incredible success. But that was soooo many years ago. Grown adults spitting bitter words nowadays, for nothing really more than toys of their childhood. This isn't specifically to you (The_Laird for example who can't quite keep himself from making snide remarks for any system he doesn't like, whenever he gets the chance), but quite a few members in general. It just seems by now, most people would have already ventured outside their beloved circle of choice to appreciate games on other systems, since - ... the war is long over with. It's not limited to AA, but man - it's much more intense here (or maybe it just a handful of members with reoccurring posts). It just seems silly to hold such intense resentment.

 

 

 

That aside (and the main reason I responded), tell me what's superior about the 7800 over the NES in the context of that generation? I only have a general idea of how the video setup specifics, work. The devil is ALWAYS in the details, which is why I'm asking. What does it have that allows it to adapt beyond the 83/84 arcade era? Both arcade and home console/computer games were making the transition to scrolling detail map(tiles/tilemap) based games. I know it's been said the 7800 strengths lay in its object per screen handling, but what about other video aspects like high background detail and coupled with 8-way scrolling? NES hardware excelled at making it extremely easy handle both these tasks, and color management as well, for software developers. One recent interview with a NES UK developer compared the NES handling of these attributes a lot easier than even the Amiga (of their experience of a range of home computers). Nothing in the library gives any indication of superiority to the NES generations of games (the life cycle of the sytem). Homebrew is looking good, but nothing as of yet that makes NES look inferior or blows it away. Sound wise, I don't see how Pokey is superior to the NES APU. Have you looked at the APU in detail? It's a fairly advanced 8bit sound chip. Kind of incredible when you think that the NES originally came out in 1983.

 

Just FYI:

 

The author of the above quote (top) is no longer a member here on AtariAge. See the other topic about "Warbirds"...

 

I guess it eventually catches up with everybody when all your posts seem to follow a similar pattern (making everyone mad)...

Edited March 9, 2011 by Tubular Gearhead

[The_Laird]

Wow, hate Nintendo much? I've seen your posts around the forum. Didn't some Nintendo kids kick the crap out of you as a kid or something? I can understand that there probably was some level of resentment towards Nintendo back then. Atari once a king, brought to its knees and almost forgotten while Nintendo became this incredible success. But that was soooo many years ago. Grown adults spitting bitter words nowadays, for nothing really more than toys of their childhood. This isn't specifically to you (The_Laird for example who can't quite keep himself from making snide remarks for any system he doesn't like, whenever he gets the chance), but quite a few members in general. It just seems by now, most people would have already ventured outside their beloved circle of choice to appreciate games on other systems, since - ... the war is long over with. It's not limited to AA, but man - it's much more intense here (or maybe it just a handful of members with reoccurring posts). It just seems silly to hold such intense resentment.

 

 

 

That aside (and the main reason I responded), tell me what's superior about the 7800 over the NES in the context of that generation? I only have a general idea of how the video setup specifics, work. The devil is ALWAYS in the details, which is why I'm asking. What does it have that allows it to adapt beyond the 83/84 arcade era? Both arcade and home console/computer games were making the transition to scrolling detail map(tiles/tilemap) based games. I know it's been said the 7800 strengths lay in its object per screen handling, but what about other video aspects like high background detail and coupled with 8-way scrolling? NES hardware excelled at making it extremely easy handle both these tasks, and color management as well, for software developers. One recent interview with a NES UK developer compared the NES handling of these attributes a lot easier than even the Amiga (of their experience of a range of home computers). Nothing in the library gives any indication of superiority to the NES generations of games (the life cycle of the sytem). Homebrew is looking good, but nothing as of yet that makes NES look inferior or blows it away. Sound wise, I don't see how Pokey is superior to the NES APU. Have you looked at the APU in detail? It's a fairly advanced 8bit sound chip. Kind of incredible when you think that the NES originally came out in 1983.

 

Yeah real mature and grown up of you to single me for abuse. I don't like the NES and don't make a secret of it, so what?

 

I see plenty of posts from you, especially in classic gaming, forcing your opinions on people far more than I do. People in glass houses really shouldn't throw stones.

 

The way I see it is, you are an NES fan then fine go hang out at an NES forum. This is an Atari forum so you should naturally expect and accept the Atari fanboyism that will take place here.

[Tubular Gearhead]

Yeah real mature and grown up of you to single me for abuse. I don't like the NES and don't make a secret of it, so what?

 

I see plenty of posts from you, especially in classic gaming, forcing your opinions on people far more than I do. People in glass houses really shouldn't throw stones.

 

The way I see it is, you are an NES fan then fine go hang out at an NES forum. This is an Atari forum so you should naturally expect and accept the Atari fanboyism that will take place here.

 

What's with all the NES fanboyism around here anyway? I do really enjoy all the technical discussions and historical insight, but I don't like it when people around here are so suprised and offended when other members actually really like Atari and think it is superior (for whatever reason- nostalgia, technically, game style, etc). This is an Atari site after all...

 

BTW- personal attacks for no particular reason...

[Rex Dart]

Eh, malducci's response doesn't look that outta line for that craziness he was replying to. Atari had no choice but to sell you more Joust because Nintendo had bottled up the world's creativity in a magic jar? Oookay.

[Underball]

Eh, malducci's response doesn't look that outta line for that craziness he was replying to. Atari had no choice but to sell you more Joust because Nintendo had bottled up the world's creativity in a magic jar? Oookay.

I tend to agree. I hate the NES with every inch of my soul, and am an Atari fan forever, but this place just chooses to selectively censor out opinions it doesn't like when someone gets sand in their vagina over it. His approach might be a little crude, but this place honestly needs a good shot in the arm once in a while. I hate having to tip-toe around certian users who will go crying to the mods because someone disagreed with them, or maybe made a joke at their expense. It's just video games, people. lighten up. It's ok to laugh at yourself, really.

[4Ks]

Wow, hate Nintendo much? I've seen your posts around the forum. Didn't some Nintendo kids kick the crap out of you as a kid or something? I can understand that there probably was some level of resentment towards Nintendo back then. Atari once a king, brought to its knees and almost forgotten while Nintendo became this incredible success. But that was soooo many years ago. Grown adults spitting bitter words nowadays, for nothing really more than toys of their childhood. This isn't specifically to you (The_Laird for example who can't quite keep himself from making snide remarks for any system he doesn't like, whenever he gets the chance), but quite a few members in general. It just seems by now, most people would have already ventured outside their beloved circle of choice to appreciate games on other systems, since - ... the war is long over with. It's not limited to AA, but man - it's much more intense here (or maybe it just a handful of members with reoccurring posts). It just seems silly to hold such intense resentment.

 

 

 

That aside (and the main reason I responded), tell me what's superior about the 7800 over the NES in the context of that generation? I only have a general idea of how the video setup specifics, work. The devil is ALWAYS in the details, which is why I'm asking. What does it have that allows it to adapt beyond the 83/84 arcade era? Both arcade and home console/computer games were making the transition to scrolling detail map(tiles/tilemap) based games. I know it's been said the 7800 strengths lay in its object per screen handling, but what about other video aspects like high background detail and coupled with 8-way scrolling? NES hardware excelled at making it extremely easy handle both these tasks, and color management as well, for software developers. One recent interview with a NES UK developer compared the NES handling of these attributes a lot easier than even the Amiga (of their experience of a range of home computers). Nothing in the library gives any indication of superiority to the NES generations of games (the life cycle of the sytem). Homebrew is looking good, but nothing as of yet that makes NES look inferior or blows it away. Sound wise, I don't see how Pokey is superior to the NES APU. Have you looked at the APU in detail? It's a fairly advanced 8bit sound chip. Kind of incredible when you think that the NES originally came out in 1983.

 

I really try to avoid posting in this forum for... obvious reasons, but you deserve a standing ovation for this post. Well said, malducci.

Edited March 9, 2011 by 4Ks

[mbd30]

I'd like to see some Atari fanboys respond to the actual good points made by Nintendo defenders, rather than eg. pulling the "THIS IS AN _ATARI_ FORUM. IF YOU LOVE THE NES SO MUCH, GO FIND A NINTENDO FORUM." card.

 

Anyway, these heated Atari vs Nintendo threads are always a fun read.

[The_Laird]

What's with all the NES fanboyism around here anyway? I do really enjoy all the technical discussions and historical insight, but I don't like it when people around here are so suprised and offended when other members actually really like Atari and think it is superior (for whatever reason- nostalgia, technically, game style, etc). This is an Atari site after all...

 

BTW- personal attacks for no particular reason...

 

Well said

[Tubular Gearhead]

I'd like to see some Atari fanboys respond to the actual good points made by Nintendo defenders, rather than eg. pulling the "THIS IS AN _ATARI_ FORUM. IF YOU LOVE THE NES SO MUCH, GO FIND A NINTENDO FORUM." card.

 

Anyway, these heated Atari vs Nintendo threads are always a fun read.

 

Whatever. Your post and 4Ks post- no real suprises there. Actually, several responses have been made to the "good points" over several threads as far as I can tell. It seems that the people that worship all things Nintendo (which is quite a few people) just don't like to hear anything bad said about the NES. But yet, there is never a shortage of people in line to bad mouth the 7800, and it has been that way for years. It is almost as if Nintendo is a religion or something...

[DracIsBack]

tell me what's superior about the 7800 over the NES in the context of that generation?

 

There have clearly got to be 50 different NES vs. 7800 threads on AtariAge that discuss this at length, Just do a search on it.

[Brian O]

[mbd30]

Constructive criticism of the NES is great. It's fine to prefer other consoles to the NES.

 

But comments along the lines of "I hate the NES with every inch of my soul"...? Or exaggerating the NES' flaws and saying that the system is garbage because it has many of the same shortcomings as other consoles of the era?

 

I don't understand it. I am not an Atari fanboy. I am not a Nintendo fanboy. I like video games, and a fun game is a fun game no matter what particular company's console it is running on.

[Underball]

tell me what's superior about the 7800 over the NES in the context of that generation?

 

There have clearly got to be 50 different NES vs. 7800 threads on AtariAge that discuss this at length, Just do a search on it.

Pretty sure his point was that the person he responded to couldn't substantiate them, whereas he seems pretty knowledgable in comparison.

 

To put it politely, anyway....

[DracIsBack]

. I like video games, and a fun game is a fun game no matter what particular company's console it is running on.

 

 

 

I don't think there's a need to badmouth the NES either. Personally, I like it and have fond memories of many games. Only wish they were a bit more reliable today. My NES sits next to my 7800, and my SMS too.

 

Honestly, as much as I dig the 7800, how that product launch was executed by Tramiel Atari fell vastly short of how Nintendo executed on the NES launch. This is why I love watching the Homebrew activity giving the 7800 a bit of a ressurgance than it never really had back in the day. Exciting times.

Edited March 9, 2011 by DracIsBack

[Retro Rogue]

Atari had no choice but to sell you more Joust because Nintendo had bottled up the world's creativity in a magic jar? Oookay.

 

If you don't understand the going-on in the industry at the time, that's fine, but sarcastic comments like that simply magnify that you're not familiar.

 

As has already been explained, two different Ataris. Atari Corp. was not Atari Inc., it had no in-house game developers and no actual game division (the Entertainment Electronic Division was started up in October of '85 for that purpose).

 

When operations started up that October, Katz looked to start licensing more games for the relaunch. He wound up hitting a brick wall as the popular titles of the time and most of the 3rd party studios were already locked up with Nintendo. Nintendo's locking in of 3rd party developers and licenses is part of factual history and legendary, not something made up as an excuse like your sarcasm seems to try and portray it as.

 

As such, he had to go to the computer industry (where he had just come from as the former head of Epyx) to start licensing computer platform games for the 7800. They also had the issues of farming out development. Once again the industry being very different than it was now, there was not a million and one different studios and startups to go to for developing games for a platform.

Edited March 9, 2011 by wgungfu

[Underball]

Constructive criticism of the NES is great. It's fine to prefer other consoles to the NES.

 

But comments along the lines of "I hate the NES with every inch of my soul"...? Or exaggerating the NES' flaws and saying that the system is garbage because it has many of the same shortcomings as other consoles of the era?

 

I don't understand it. I am not an Atari fanboy. I am not a Nintendo fanboy. I like video games, and a fun game is a fun game no matter what particular company's console it is running on.

Hyperbole, for humors sake.

 

If I have to take video game message board discussions as serious business, it'll fell way too much like work.

[kool kitty89]

Just FYI:

 

The author of the above quote (top) is no longer a member here on AtariAge. See the other topic about "Warbirds"...

 

I guess it eventually catches up with everybody when all your posts seem to follow a similar pattern (making everyone mad)...

Yeah, Gorf's had some good times, but gotten worse over the last couple years it seems. (he's always been temperamental and stubborn though) I had some nice/interesting conversations on the Jaguar with him (especially in the 1993 thread), but yeah, he can definitely rub people the wrong way. (I didn't let that get to me or ruin those discussions though -for the same reason I try to temper my responses to any aggressive/inflammatory comments in general, if I respond to them at all)

 

He's a tech guy and a programmer (one of the most prominent coders in the Jag homebrew community -though his personality seems to hinder that as well) and has definitely had experience with most/all Atari platforms, but I don't think he's actually had any experience working with Nintendo (or some others he's negatively commented on at times) platforms and thus doesn't have a good idea of what he's really saying.

 

 

 

 

 

Wow, hate Nintendo much? I've seen your posts around the forum. Didn't some Nintendo kids kick the crap out of you as a kid or something? I can understand that there probably was some level of resentment towards Nintendo back then. Atari once a king, brought to its knees and almost forgotten while Nintendo became this incredible success. But that was soooo many years ago. Grown adults spitting bitter words nowadays, for nothing really more than toys of their childhood. This isn't specifically to you (The_Laird for example who can't quite keep himself from making snide remarks for any system he doesn't like, whenever he gets the chance), but quite a few members in general. It just seems by now, most people would have already ventured outside their beloved circle of choice to appreciate games on other systems, since - ... the war is long over with. It's not limited to AA, but man - it's much more intense here (or maybe it just a handful of members with reoccurring posts). It just seems silly to hold such intense resentment.

That's a little strong, but I agree to a fair extent: a surprising amount of closed-minded people for a retro enthusiast forum especially. (even if you don't like the NES, you should certainly respect its success from a number of perspectives -technical, and more importantly, in terms of actual marketing and software produced for it)

 

That aside (and the main reason I responded), tell me what's superior about the 7800 over the NES in the context of that generation? I only have a general idea of how the video setup specifics, work. The devil is ALWAYS in the details, which is why I'm asking.

From what I understand, there's some advantages in colors per scanline flexibility (and all colors are indexed from the 256 color palette -no odd limits like the NES using the added color flags), it has DLLs somewhat like the A8, it has much greater bandwidth for sprites, no hard limit for on-screen sprites, but everything else has massive trade-offs. (to a large extent due to the low-cost design of the system as well as the limited design cycle -and configuration as such- and being tied to 2600 compatibility on top of those limits -and we're talking hardware here, so that's aside from all the issues with Atari being completely liquidated and split up in '84 and all the other limits imposed by the transition to Atari Games and Atari Corp -ie Trammel Technologies Ltd)

 

You've got a single bus design (low cost and compatibility) with DMA contention for the CPU and MARIA which greatly reduces the CPU time (even more after the overhead of the CPU managing the display lists and sprites), you've got an architecture that wouldn't have been bad to get into for early 80s developers familiar with the likes of the A8 and 2600, but one that was difficult to work with for those used to plain character/cell (or bitmap) and x/y position sprites (iirc, the 7800's sprites had to be manipulated somewhat more like the A8).

 

It's biggest advantage is cost effectiveness and general potential for further consolidation (albeit not exploited due to circumstances -production volumes, funding, etc, but they should have had it down to 2 main chips -MARIA and CPU/RIOT/TIA ASIC- and eventually down to a single chip ASIC -I think Atari Inc already had a similar single chip VCS ASIC in late 1983 or early '84 to go alogn with the Jr project -after transition to Atari Corp, no such ASIC was implemented until the late 80s -initial Jrs had normal chipsets, probably due to large stockpiles of old components).

 

It certainly wasn't superior to the NES as such, but it had advantages with trade-offs. (it was generally superior than the A8 and C64 in graphics -the main disadvantages would be onboard sound and CPU time, but you had better color and use of color than either of those, more flexibility of sprites, reasonable hardware scrolling/assist support)

 

Many of the real-world problems were circumstantial though, not due to flaws of MARIA, but implementation for 1984 with the time constraints, cost constraints, and backwards compatibility constraints of the design. (of course, some of that crossed over with the hardware being designed by VERY new engineers learning LSI by the seat of their pants so to speak -and no collaboration with them and Atari's engineers to facilitate use of DRAM, more complex bus interfacing, onboard/embedded sound, etc)

In general, it was well suited for the 1984 release planned though, and everything else was a matter of getting support and high volume production and strong market interest to facilitate tight programming of experienced developers, strong 1st and 3rd party development support, embedded bank switching logic and low-cost embedded sound chips (quite possibly doing both in the same ASIC like many NES mappers), or potential lock-on type add-ons depending on the case. (though I don't think they had any plans for the likes of an expansion module as such, just on cart expansions -which would be increasingly feasible as volumes increases, just as they were on the NES, except still cheaper due to the smaller PCBs and single bus design)

 

What does it have that allows it to adapt beyond the 83/84 arcade era? Both arcade and home console/computer games were making the transition to scrolling detail map(tiles/tilemap) based games. I know it's been said the 7800 strengths lay in its object per screen handling, but what about other video aspects like high background detail and coupled with 8-way scrolling?

It can do most/all of that with various trade-offs, but most is done very differently. (hence the context of developers transitioning directly from the likes of the A8/5200/VCS -especially the latter with its quirks- since the 7800's architecture wouldn't seem odd or difficult in that context -only after the defacto-standard of tilemaps and x/y position registers with developers heavily focused on that would it become alien and problematic, and it's not really fair to fault the 7800 for that either since those things had not yet emerged as full standards in 1983)

 

Nothing in the library gives any indication of superiority to the NES generations of games (the life cycle of the sytem).

Well that's really nothing to go by whatsoever, even more so than the likes of the 32x or Jaguar (as both of those at least had examples BITD that came somewhat close to pushing the hardware's limits).

The 7800 got weak support due to it being a victim of circumstances (many, many circumstances) that meant it got a limited number of games with relatively low production values and pretty much no independent 3rd party development at all. (ie all games were in-house or -more commonly- commissioned games from 3rd party developers, usually licensed computer games with a few unique titles)

 

The 7800's late gen games are more like what 1986 could have had if it was released in '84 with full effort and an array of titles expanding into the high-end (ie with 128k games by 1987).

 

With Atari Corp's position in 1986/87, they had tons going against them with the only advantages being that they at least had was an established brand name and good marketing/management under Michael Katz (in spite of an extremely tight budget -the opposite for Sega, huge marketing budget ahead of Nintendo initially, but weak marketing/management in the US). Things got worse as support more and more favored Nintendo both due to hardware merits and (more significantly) Nintendo's market position and clout to push monopolistic licensing contracts.

 

By the time Atari Corp was reasonably funded in the late 80s (you started seeing that by 1987 even), they had already fallen to a very negative position against Nintendo (still well ahead of Sega in market share/position until the end of the 80s from figures I've seen) and thus still had a relatively small budget to push against Nintendo for software or advertising. (and 3rd parties were basically locked out by that point, even if they did want to develop for the 7800 -hence Atari being the publisher of almost every single game on the system)

The biggest potential they missed out on in that context (given their limitations from 1986 on) was drawing game licenses/development support from European computer developers. (not really big names in the US marketing wise, but a lot of good games that could have catered to the US market)

I'm not sure if they ever tried to offer free licensing to 3rd parties or loop-holes to get around Nintendo (like Atari published games that were treated as 3rd party games with corresponding royalties), but that would certainly be interesting to find out.

 

 

Given their position, it's really a wonder that you saw any 7800 games that were competitive (or even had some advantages) against NES contemporaries. (Joust, BallBlazer, Xenophobe, maybe one or 2 others were actually worse on the NES)

 

 

The NES is like the 2600: a VERY long lifespan with strong development support that really maxed out the system's potential for the time (or came very close to it) as well as using on-cart hardware to expand on some limitations. (VCS mainly had bank switching and occasional RAM expansion -the latter a rather significant hack due to lack of Phi2- and even the likes of David Crane's DPC coprocessor for Pitfall II -including a rather ingenious hack to allow sound expansion through the cart slot of a system without any remote provisions for such -I think it streams 4-bit PCM and plays that via volume modulation through one of TIA's channels, hence the scratchy sound)

 

 

I don't see how Pokey is superior to the NES APU. Have you looked at the APU in detail? It's a fairly advanced 8bit sound chip. Kind of incredible when you think that the NES originally came out in 1983.

It's not, though there are some trade-offs (just as POKEY vs SID or such), the APU is obviously more advanced and especially more capable without special software tricks. (many of which aren't possible on the 7800 as they are on the 5200/A8 since IRQ is heavily limited in utility by DMA contention -inconsistent CPU time in active display- ) Hell, the APU is notable superior to the SID in some respects. (4 hardware channels -but less flexible- and the DMC)

 

Hell, if you put POKEY in the NES, you'd have a lot more flexibility with it than in the 7800 (lots of CPU time without contention and thus full flexibility with the interrupt driven effects), and more so than the A8 since you has the full 1.79 MHz without contention vs the ~1.2 MHz performance of the A8/5200 after video DMA and DRAM refresh.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you want more detailed and definitive tech info, maybe try Groovybee if he's willing to talk on the subject.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The way I see it is, you are an NES fan then fine go hang out at an NES forum. This is an Atari forum so you should naturally expect and accept the Atari fanboyism that will take place here.

What if you're a general classic gaming fan who wants to discuss this stuff? What if you like ALL of these consoles and computers (unlike some who fight over Atari Systems vs other Atari Corp/Inc systems even ) and like history and/or technical and/or general fun/collecting of this stuff in general.

 

I know it's unrealistic for the general populous of a dedicated Atari forum to be super well rounded in preferences as such (like myself, Appolloboy, or some others), but I'd at least hope that some reasonable discussion on a logical level would be possible aside from personal preferences. (and the blatant hate from some is really offputting in such a discussion)

Anyone who can't see the NES's huge library of good games (for the time) that catered heavily to the mass market (and was marketed well in Japan and North America -hit and miss in Europe) is not willing to take part in logical discussion.

I don't go to Sega-16 expencting the members to be blatantly biased towards Sega stuff, otherwise I wouldn't go there at all. (as I've said before, the main reason I avoid Nintendo forums is just that reason: even the best cases -like Nintendoage- are full of idiot fanboys with no reasonable respect or interest in ralistic discussions)

 

Granted, discussion technical, business/marketing, historical, and hypothetical stuff (from any category) is different from personal feelings on what you like in general.

 

 

 

That said, I agree that it was a bit unfair to single you out, especially since you haven't been nearly as unfair as others. (I rather like most of your discussions . . . certain others would have been much better examples -I usually don't like to single people out, but I find underball's attitude extremely offputting vs someone gearhead who obviously has biases/preferences but is at least up for reasonable discussion without hatred)

Edited March 9, 2011 by kool kitty89

[Rex Dart]

(history of atari omitted for time)

 

You're confusing creativity with licenses, and Atari's unwillingness to create wasn't Nintendo's fault. So Atari couldn't offer a port of Ninja Gaiden... but they could've offered Golf Ninja's Shanghai Freakout.

And I probably would've prefered it.

Edited March 9, 2011 by Rex Dart

[mbd30]

Constructive criticism of the NES is great. It's fine to prefer other consoles to the NES.

 

But comments along the lines of "I hate the NES with every inch of my soul"...? Or exaggerating the NES' flaws and saying that the system is garbage because it has many of the same shortcomings as other consoles of the era?

 

I don't understand it. I am not an Atari fanboy. I am not a Nintendo fanboy. I like video games, and a fun game is a fun game no matter what particular company's console it is running on.

Hyperbole, for humors sake.

 

If I have to take video game message board discussions as serious business, it'll fell way too much like work.

 

Okay, cool. No hard feelings.

[Retro Rogue]

(history of atari omitted for time)

 

You're confusing creativity with licenses, and Atari's unwillingness to create wasn't Nintendo's fault. So Atari couldn't offer a port of Ninja Gaiden... but they could've offered Golf Ninja's Shanghai Freakout.

And I probably would've prefered it.

 

 

No, you're once again not reading (which is obvious by brushing it off as "History of Atari", which also clearly shows you're not grasping that this was a different Atari company than the one that did the 2600/5200). Atari Corp. is not Atari Inc. THEY HAD NO GAME PROGRAMMERS OR DESIGNERS and were locked out of doing anything with the major 3rd party studios at the time. They were finally able to do what you're talking about later in the console's life, which was of course to late. I've talked directly to Katz and the others there, I know exactly what was going on. Katz came in and literally had to build a department from nothing.

 

 

 

Edited March 9, 2011 by wgungfu

[Rex Dart]

THEY HAD NO GAME PROGRAMMERS OR DESIGNERS

 

NOT NINTENDO'S FAULT

[Retro Rogue]

THEY HAD NO GAME PROGRAMMERS OR DESIGNERS

 

NOT NINTENDO'S FAULT

 

 

And around in circles we go. It was indeed Nintendo's fault for Atari Corp. not being able to go to any of the dev studios - Nintendo had a lockout. If they developed games for the NES, they couldn't develop for anywhere else. Consequently it took time to get themselves to anywhere near to what you're talking about - which they did do by the late 80's. Sorry, but this ostrich head in a hole in the ground thing of yours just isn't going to work.

Edited March 9, 2011 by wgungfu