Confirmed: RROD on 360 slim

[Rev]

N4G < click

[Hyper_Eye]

I saw this video the other day. Even the author says he thinks his issue is a unique one as he hasn't found evidence of anyone else experiencing it. I don't think anyone expects the failure rate to be 0%. That is unattainable. The industry standard failure rate for electronics is supposed to be 5%. This video simply proves that the product can fail which we all already knew. We know that regardless of the product or the manufacturer. What I am waiting to see is a large quantity of failures all with the same issue. This problem appears to be a bad power brick. He has another unit and so far hasn't experienced any issues. I saw a picture where someones 360 displayed a warning dialog that it was not getting proper ventilation and it was shutting down to protect the unit. So it looks like the 360 is no longer going to be allowed to exceed some thermal threshold which may mean RROD simply isn't possible anymore with the slim. That also means that were the 360 simply unable to keep itself cool enough you would have a brick anyway because the emergency shutdown would constantly trigger. I haven't seen reports of anything like that yet either. So this is a wait and see sort of thing. Isolated incidents are good for causing alarm but they don't really mean anything more than electronic products can be defective and that is something all purchasers of electronic products are aware of. We aren't demanding 0% failure rates, the 5% industry standard would be perfectly reasonable. I would like a reasonable expectation that my console is not defective and will not fail after a certain time. With the old 360 there was a complete expectation of eventual failure.

[HammR25]

That's not RROD. The console doesn't have red rings anymore. I agree with Hyper_Eye in that I couldn't care less that one console broke. Come back when it's an actual pattern like with the earlier 360s.

[moycon]

If in 6 months there's dozens and dozens of video's like this then I'd take the time to make a post about it. I've heard of Wii and PS3 consoles going tits up in the first week. There's a difference between a unacceptable design flaw and an acceptable failure rate. Hopefully this is a case of the later.

[Mord]

If in 6 months there's dozens and dozens of video's like this then I'd take the time to make a post about it. I've heard of Wii and PS3 consoles going tits up in the first week. There's a difference between a unacceptable design flaw and an acceptable failure rate. Hopefully this is a case of the later.

 

For myself, I'm not going to require dozens and dozens of video evidence. I suspect if there's a real problem there will be hundreds and hundreds of complaints all over the place regardless. Given Microsoft's experience with hardware up until this point, I'll take people's words for it.

[moycon]

I suspect if there's a real problem there will be hundreds and hundreds of complaints all over the place regardless.

 

Right, that was what I was getting at. Posts from unhappy consumers on forums like this one will certainly far outweigh video evidence if the Slim really does have a design issue. You can bet the video evidence won't be lacking either though. There would be plenty of evidence for all.

[Rev]

Reguardless if this is an isoleted incedent or a one in a million problem, it does bode well for microsoft. Being i have been burned twice before (rrod) i may give it 6 months and if there doesnt seem to me tons and tons of slim 'rrod' 's i may actually buy a 360 again (going against my own word that i wouldn't)

 

i still love playing 360,the online and the game selection, i just cant stand the unreliability.

[xg4bx]

they've also gone back to a 1 year warranty, no more 3 year deal.

[Hyper_Eye]

The reduced warranty period is a bold move. I suspect Microsoft must be incredibly confident that the RROD issue is finished in order for them to reduce the warranty period. If it is not fixed the resulting fallout could very well finish MS in the game console market and they are definitely aware of that. I am betting that they had the die shrink completed and have been running systems with the CPU/GPU combination for quite a while now. I would be curious to see what their stress testing looks like. Anyway, I have not had much worse luck with the 360 than I have had with other optical-based consoles in the past. It has been unfortunate to see consoles lasting no longer than a few months to a year but I haven't had issues on that scale. So, assuming that the slim will do better than the previous models, I don't feel any regret about snagging one and I am sure it is going to do fine. Hell, I don't have any regret about getting a pro on day 1 which eventually failed. It resulted in a lot of awesome gaming anyway.

[Atariboy]

The reduced warranty period is a bold move. I suspect Microsoft must be incredibly confident that the RROD issue is finished in order for them to reduce the warranty period.

 

Then again, if you were incredibly confident that the RROD issue is finished, why reduce the warranty period at all?

 

If the problem is fixed there shouldn't be many consoles that need to take advantage of the three year warranty for a RROD style of repair (I don't think the extended period ever covered things like the disc drive). But by lowering the warranty period it's raised a red flag to some consumers that remember past issues with the 360.

[Hyper_Eye]

That doesn't take shareholder concerns into consideration. There is always a balancing act being played and the consumer is only on one side of it.

[Atariboy]

That doesn't take shareholder concerns into consideration. There is always a balancing act being played and the consumer is only on one side of it.

 

My suggestion doesn't take the shareholds into consideration? How so?

 

If they're so "incredibly confident" that the common failure point for many 360's has been resolved to such a point that the extended warranty isn't needed, why still lower it? It's making some individuals very hestitant to upgrade due to their past experiences.

 

Lowering the warranty for this failure down to 1 year for something that supposedly has been largely eliminated that shouldn't require repairs for the vast majority of customers, but which is causing a fair number of individuals to hold off on purchasing, is more what I'd call not taking the shareholders into consideration. It's losing sales for repairs that largely shouldn't be needed any longer (The 3 red ring failure).

 

Maintaining the warranty period should essentially be a free selling point if the common RROD failure that happened to so many earlier 360's has indeed been largely eradicated. Instead, the 1 year period is making some potential customers very hesitant.

 

If this revision isn't prone to the type of failure that was indicated by 3 red rings on earlier models (Which is what the extra two years covered, not such things as the disc drive and other components), then it shouldn't cost them much of anything to maintain the warranty length if the consoles aren't falling due to such failures.

Edited June 25, 2010 by Atariboy

[Hyper_Eye]

If you think there is any condition in which shareholders would prefer the 3 year warranty over the 1 year warranty, considering how much the warranty extension cost, then you don't know a whole lot about how major shareholders think and operate. Obviously Microsoft felt inclined to lower the warranty period for a reason and pressure from shareholders is the biggest thing that moves a corporation. Time will tell if the 1 year warranty is acceptable for the slim. One thing that MS has shown is that if it turns out a defect exists in the product, and I would hate to think they haven't learned any lessons from the multi-billion dollar mistake made with the original design, they are willing to put a plan for replacement into place and extend the warranty. For those that are weary about buying the new 360 slim they probably shouldn't buy it but I would suspect most of them had their mind made up about the 360 anyway.

[Atariboy]

If you think there is any condition in which shareholders would prefer the 3 year warranty over the 1 year warranty, considering how much the warranty extension cost, then you don't know a whole lot about how major shareholders think and operate.

 

My point is that lowering the warranty for something that we've been led to believe has been redesigned to not fail in the same manner and rate it did before, is basically free (It's the same line of thought with things like 100,000 mile warrantys for automobiles, they're giving you that warranty on the engine and powertrain knowing full well that your not likely to encounter a failure during that period of time, but it gives confidence to the consumer in the product and makes it more attractive to customers which leads to increased sales with few additional warranty claims).

 

But by lowering this warranty covering the issues indicated on earlier 360's by the 3 RROD error signal (And I think the E74 error message was covered by the additional warranty length as well), it's scaring away a few potential customers by them deciding not to cover for the same length of time a failure that's supposedly been largely eradicated in the slim 360.

 

You essentially aren't losing money by warrantying something that in the vast majority of cases out there, won't be failing. But you do lose money by reducing the warranty length because you're thinking it's now a unnecessary protection for the buyer if it's scaring away customers.

 

They haven't shortened the warranty period in a "bold move" to send a signal to customers that they're "incredibly confident" that this common console failure has been largely eliminated. If it's been eliminated, they would just gain sales by maintaining the attractive 3 year warranty on certain aspects of a console that has been notoriously unreliable in the past so they're not scaring away potential customers. Taking away those two years for some common past 360 failures is making some shy away for now due to past history.

 

If they're that confident this issue is gone, those two years is essentially just a bullet point to help entice people to buy the console because MS doesn't have to make repairs on a largely nonexistant problem. Shareholders want to maximize profit which doesn't necessarily mean trimming warranty lengths.

 

Anyways, I never thought it was a major problem. I'm confident that MS has brought to market a reliable console with a reasonable failure rate this time. I just found lowering the warranty length on common 360 failures as a odd decision that isn't necessarily going to be in the best interest of Microsoft's stakeholders. And I absolutely don't think it's some impressive bold message to communicate to consumers the 360's new found reliability. I think it has only accomplished sending some doubt to a small percentage of potential slim 360 customers, which should vanish in the coming months as the durability of the system becomes clear.

Edited June 25, 2010 by Atariboy

[moycon]

I'm with Atariboy, I think companies specializing in new tech should warranty their product for life.

[Hyper_Eye]

Did I say that what MS did was a bold move that would impress to customers their confidence and increase sells? No. I said it was a bold move and it was. It is a bold move because their confidence will lose them sells. I don't think this is going to increase sells for them. I agree with the majority of what you are saying. The only thing I disagree with is that shareholders would not want the warranty period reduced. They look at historical performance and what they are going to see is the massive cost incurred when the warranty was extended to 3 years. It is still costing massive amounts of money. I absolutely think they want to see that phased out. I don't want to see the warranty period reduced any more than any other consumer who spends a pretty nice chunk of change on this product. I certainly feel better the longer the warranty is. I wasn't aware that calling a decision a bold one always implied a positive connotation.

[moycon]

We need a sarcastic Emoticon real bad.

[Atariboy]

We need a sarcastic Emoticon real bad.

 

I of course don't think they have an obligation to provide anything beyond a standard length warranty. I never meant to imply that we're owed anything such as a three year warranty. Even if it's just 90 days, that's a reasonable amount of time if your console has a manufacturing defect (Which is what a warranty primarily covers you for) for it to reveal itself during normal usage. Anything beyond that is just a bonus that gives the consumer even more confidence in making their expensive purchase.

 

I just found it a odd move to reduce the length of warranty time for a failure that has hopefully been eradicated.

 

Did I say that what MS did was a bold move that would impress to customers their confidence and increase sells?

 

You're right, it's a leap I incorrectly made with your initial statement.

Edited June 26, 2010 by Atariboy

[Hyper_Eye]

We need a sarcastic Emoticon real bad.

 

Your comment came off as sarcastic as intended. My response wasn't directed towards you. I didn't quote because I thought it was obvious enough.

[moycon]

Your comment came off as sarcastic as intended. My response wasn't directed towards you.

 

LOL I was 99% sure you got it...but that 1% doubt made me post that.

 

I see Atariboy's point, they changed the "standard" warranty to 3 years for RRoD and now it's gone. If they really wanted to give consumers a warm and fuzzy...just keep it. Thing is the new slims by design don't get RRoD. (No doubt a corporate decision) They just rebooted basically is the way I look at it. They released the console that should have been released to begin with. (except for the size) you know, one that wont break in a year or two!! I'm pretty confident the issue's that caused so many 360s to fail is resolved. I've returned no less than 6 (maybe 7) xbox 360s...but none since the Jaspers and my Falcon is still working as well! That's not to say NONE will fail. But the failure rate will be acceptable, not 99%!!

[HammR25]

The 3 year warranty only covered RROD anyway.

[xg4bx]

i tend to think the rrod phenomena is both partly over exaggerated and partly due to user error, especially within the past couple years.

 

i've owned a few 360s and only 1 got an rrod. it was a launch console and frankly i treated it like shit (smoking in front of it, dusty, etc). the launch consoles were blatant garbage as everybody knows. but others i've had, as well as my most recent, ran perfectly. my newest one actually runs cooler than my ps3 slim.

 

i've worked at gamestop. to put it bluntly, most people treat their things like absolute shit. if they're indicative of the public at large i'm not surprised so many died. i'm talking putting it on the floor, dusty as all get out, sharpie all over it, cigarette burns on it, reeking of cigar smoke, animal fur, etc. i've seen it all.

 

 

as for why i've had so many 360s, video game o.c.d. if i'm bored with something i get rid of it immediately then end up rebuying it. it drives my gf nuts but thankfully i seem to have cured myself of it.

[Austin]

i've worked at gamestop. to put it bluntly, most people treat their things like absolute shit. if they're indicative of the public at large i'm not surprised so many died. i'm talking putting it on the floor, dusty as all get out, sharpie all over it, cigarette burns on it, reeking of cigar smoke, animal fur, etc. i've seen it all.

 

With my five years of experience in video game retail, I have no doubt that this could attribute to the large number of RROD systems. To put it into perspective, people seem to forget the massive problem PS2's had with its disc-read error issue. IIRC, there were numbers floating around back in '05 saying something like one out of every four systems got the error.. Out of the millions of consoles sold, that's a lot of defective units. Anyways.. With all the systems I saw come and go on the used market that had vents completely caked to the rim with dirt and dust with no way to ventillate, there's no wonder most of the ones we got didn't work. These things were clearly hardly cared for. I have no doubt the 360 RROD issue is along the same lines, especially if people are letting their systems get clogged up with crap like they did their PS2 systems. This isn't to say there isn't a severe underlying manufacturing problem that attributed to it, but I bet a good chunk of the general-public RROD numbers are at least partially due to a lack of routine maintenance on the system.

Edited June 27, 2010 by Austin

[+swlovinist]

i've worked at gamestop. to put it bluntly, most people treat their things like absolute shit. if they're indicative of the public at large i'm not surprised so many died. i'm talking putting it on the floor, dusty as all get out, sharpie all over it, cigarette burns on it, reeking of cigar smoke, animal fur, etc. i've seen it all.

 

With my five years of experience in video game retail, I have no doubt that this could attribute to the large number of RROD systems. To put it into perspective, people seem to forget the massive problem PS2's had with its disc-read error issue. IIRC, there were numbers floating around back in '05 saying something like one out of every four systems got the error.. Out of the millions of consoles sold, that's a lot of defective units. Anyways.. With all the systems I saw come and go on the used market that had vents completely caked to the rim with dirt and dust with no way to ventillate, there's no wonder most of the ones we got didn't work. These things were clearly hardly cared for. I have no doubt the 360 RROD issue is along the same lines, especially if people are letting their systems get clogged up with crap like they did their PS2 systems. This isn't to say there isn't a severe underlying manufacturing problem that attributed to it, but I bet a good chunk of the general-public RROD numbers are at least partially due to a lack of routine maintenance on the system.

 

First off I want to say that I too worked alot of retail, visit several game stores in about a 150 mile radius in the Northwest. I have had an Xbox 360 from day -2. My system is finally having issues...but in my opinion it should still be working fine. The hardware issue for me has made me play my PS3 and Wii alot more. The more people start having issues outside the three year warrinty, the more you will see folks move on from their Xbox.

 

While I agree that people dont take care of game systems, I am the only collector out of 20 collectors that I know to not get a RROD. The 20 collectors were clean freaks who had their system in clean non confined areas. Nevertheless the failure rate to me is unacceptable in any condition. MS fanboys will keep buying systems or upgrading their units. The rest of the public is going to think twice either by not buying their next system, or just switching to a a PS3. Mark my words: The RROD thing is not going away. The 360 was made with inferior hardware design and MS paid dearly for it. Of the next generation consoles, by far the 360 has the most issues.

 

I am done with Microsoft, and their shoddy hardware bullcrap. They may of had the edge on games, but when your system craps out on you, who cares?

 

I dont think that their new system will fix the problem. Only time will tell. I for one will not be buying it and will be speaking with my wallet.

[DracIsBack]

First off I want to say that I too worked alot of retail, visit several game stores in about a 150 mile radius in the Northwest. I have had an Xbox 360 from day -2. My system is finally having issues...but in my opinion it should still be working fine.

 

Me too.

 

On one hand, it's a testament to the library that the system is still selling so well, with all of the publicized issues. My best friend and uncle - who are both more casual players - just had theirs added to the pile of RROD devices.

 

On the other, imagine how many XBox 360s Microsoft might have sold if the system had a normal failure rate?

 

This is why I simply don't have an XBox 360 - love the games, love XBox live ... but with about 20 friends, family and colleagues with dead ones now, it hits too close to home, warranty or not.

 

I was at a tradeshow last summer when Microsoft was giving away an XBox 360 as a door prize. Someone remarked to the winner, "hopefully it works for you". He replied, "This is actually going to be my fifth 360 ... the other four have Red Ringed".