what innovations has nintendo really brought the industry?

[SoulBlazer]

The 'Seal of Approval' was like a joke really, even games like Godzilla and Taboo got them. Actually the seal of approval only meant the cartridge works in said console. Did it set a standard? As a matter of fact Nintendo didn't care much who bought their cartridges for making games, as long as they bought loads.

 

As for looking for concepts and taking them to te bank, Love Hotels? Rice cookers? late entry in Pong consoles? didn't exactly rocked the world (or Japan). The laser range did good, as did some of the Nintendo toys during the 70s.

 

Hey, don't knock Godzilla! I love that game!

 

The Seal of Approval just ment that Nintendo had QC'd the game and that it had no major bugs in it -- which did make it better then anything that happened in the pre-crash games, cause there were a number of buggy games that came out.

 

What also helped to pervent a glut was that each company that was licenced by Nintendo to produce games for the NES could only release 5 games a year. This didn't mean that 6 baseball games couldn't come out a year, but it ment there was a fixed number of games that could come out -- no flooding of market. They allowed several companies to make a a second label -- Konami and Ultra, for example.

[NE146]

They created platformers with Donkey Kong right?

Not quite. Donkey Kong only added gameplay elements to the platform genre.

 

Space Panic was released in the arcades a year before Donkey Kong. Space Panic doesn't have the jumping ability of Donkey Kong, but is considered to be a platformer.

 

I think I remember a time when those games were referred to as "Ladder Games" At least in some of the "how to win at videogame" books I had. That didn't last did it.

 

But yeah, as others have said, I'd say the Nintendo D-Pad is one of the big things here. Sure there were other up/down/left/right touchpad thingys in various devices prior such as the Microvision (which I had at the time). But the Game & Watch was really the first place I ever really saw that neatly designed little plastic cross which we still see to this day on every major controller. I remember seeing the NES controllers for the first time and thinking.. "ah wow they used the game & watch controller!". Which was really cool considering it was now the nicely compact default controller for a tv-based videogame.

 

[gdement]

Seal of Approval meant that the game was produced under license from Nintendo. Whatever that did or didn't entail is beside the point. The point is that Nintendo proved how successful you can be by tightly locking your system against 3rd party software, and then selling licenses. Nobody had ever derived such significant revenue this way before the NES. After the NES, every console manufacturer wanted to replicate this scenario.

 

I don't know much about the Atari 5200, but I think it doesn't have a lockout mechanism. If true, that really amazes me, considering everything they experienced on the 2600 platform.

[Retro Rogue]

I don't know much about the Atari 5200, but I think it doesn't have a lockout mechanism. If true, that really amazes me, considering everything they experienced on the 2600 platform.

 

The 7800 does. The 5200 was designed when the 3rd party stuff was just before the "out of control" stage.

[kool kitty89]

As someone mentioned, the 5200 already had an automatic RF. Also, the Microvision ('79) had a dpad style control for one of it's interchangeable games:

Good point with the microvision. (I wonder if the use in the game and watch was inspired by that or just convergent engineering ideas)

 

Also, I think there were ones predating the 5200's autoswitch, I think the RCA Studio II had it and one of the dedicated consoles too. (though the latter may have come after the Studio II anyway)

 

 

 

Did any other console aside from the N64 use Rambus RAM?

PS2 used it, also the 2nd console to use a 64-bit architecture CPU, nest was the 360 then PS3. (of course, PSX, N64, and PS2 all used SGI/MIPS CPUs, as does the the PSP -not sure if the PSP uses RDRAM though, but the PS2, N64, and PSP all use derivatives of the MIPS R4000 family I believe -PSX is the older R3000)

 

Personally, I don't really see where any of Nintendo's ideas is an "innovation". I never really thought of it that way. I have noticed that with the newer consoles, Sony and Microsoft have flashier machines. Comparing consoles generation for generation, the couple of Nintendo consoles I have (NES and N64) are close to if not the strongest consoles hardware-wise of their respective generations that I own. The portables are just the opposite--the Game Boy classic and the DS are the weakest.

The N64 was very late in the game: It was released almost 2 full years after the PSX and Saturn in Japan, so It's more of a surprise it wasn't more advanced than it was -though a good part of that is that a lot of it's power is capped by bottlenecks in software and hardware- Consider that the 3DO was only a year older than the PSX -though the N64 is more like the Jaguar in some respects like being long-term design projects (1993-1996 for N64, 1990-1993 for Jag) and both were highly low-cost optimized with tradeoffs made to accomplish that. (but Nintendo had the advantage of starting later and getting a better perspective on the future market -oriented to texturemapped shaded triangle based 3D rendering- and had tons more funding, but screwed up worse in some areas given their better management and budget -some software tool limitations, especially limiting the utility of some flexibility offered by the RSP and also using carts in 1996, atari went with carts for cost reasons but followed up with a CD unit less than year and a half after launch compared to Nintendo who dragged their feet and finally released the ass backwards DD in Japan in 1999, 3 years after launch)

 

The Famicom was fairly advanced in 1983, though not extremely better than the C64 or 5200/A8 (more so over CV/MSX/SG-1000), and of the generation, the SMS was technically more advanced in several aspects (namely the 15 or 16-color per tile/sprite graphics to the NES's 3 or 4 color tiles/sprites), Sound was a bit weak in the western version though. (Japanese Mk.III had an add-on YM2413 FM synth chip and 1987 SMS in Japan had it built-in though, then again, several JP Famicom games had sound expansion too)

7800 is kind of an odd one out, with weak sound without an add-on cart and graphcis better at far different things than the NES or SMS. (best at fixed screens with lots of moving objects -so a lot of early/mid 1980s arcade games, and also total lack of flicker)

 

 

 

 

They created platformers with Donkey Kong right?

Not quite. Donkey Kong only added gameplay elements to the platform genre.

 

Space Panic was released in the arcades a year before Donkey Kong. Space Panic doesn't have the jumping ability of Donkey Kong, but is considered to be a platformer.

Was Pitfall the first to implement a multi-screen horizontal run and jump type game? (a horizontal platform adventure if you will, with page flipping rather than scrolling -a popular method on several later games too, even on platforms capable of scrolling, like Treasure Island Dizzy or A Boy and His Blob)

Edited June 29, 2010 by kool kitty89

[Retro Rogue]

Also, I think there were ones predating the 5200's autoswitch, I think the RCA Studio II had it and one of the dedicated consoles too. (though the latter may have come after the Studio II anyway)

 

No, what the RCA Studio II has was the single r/f powercord setup like the 4 port 5200. It was not autoswitching though, you still have a tv/game lever on the side of the box.

[ErickFTW]

Not quite. Donkey Kong only added gameplay elements to the platform genre.

 

Space Panic was released in the arcades a year before Donkey Kong. Space Panic doesn't have the jumping ability of Donkey Kong, but is considered to be a platformer.

 

Thanks for the information. I'll have to play Space Panic one of these days.

 

Was Pitfall the first to implement a multi-screen horizontal run and jump type game? (a horizontal platform adventure if you will, with page flipping rather than scrolling -a popular method on several later games too, even on platforms capable of scrolling, like Treasure Island Dizzy or A Boy and His Blob)

 

I believe Smurf: Rescue in Gargamel's Castle came out the same year as Pitfall. I have always wondered which game was released first.

[Retro Rogue]

I believe Smurf: Rescue in Gargamel's Castle came out the same year as Pitfall. I have always wondered which game was released first.

 

Pitfall has a publication date of 8/20/82 which would have been when it was sent to distributors for the official September availability. Smurf was announced (in the context of being completed) in mid May and I see it on sale as well the first week of September with the ColecoVision.

[jeremysart]

Why so much hate for Nintendo? Its not like they are just popping out and saying "Look at us, we invented videogames!".

Calling Nintendo the creater of anything, or master of innovations, is the same as saying the 2600 was the first home game console, or that all of their products were innovative.

 

Just like Atari (in the beggining anyway) Nintendo found a way to take something that was sort of in the dark, and shine a big ol' spot light on it.

 

Did they come up with motion control? No. Did they come up with touch screen? No. Did they come up with 3D? No.

Were they innovative about it? Yes! They took technology that was otherwise forgotten about, and made advances on it, and found innovative ways a way to make it fun, not just for core gamers, but EVERYONE. The Wii for example is the first gaming console my mom and dad have touched since Atari. Family members that never owned a console before have a Wii in their home.

 

Not only did they make it fun for everyone, they also made it affordable for everyone.. I can regularly pick up Wii games for under $20.. we can go to our basement and play pool, go to the movies, or have a bbq with friends and have tons of fun without breaking the bank, but we were also able to purchase a wii, extra controllers and chargers plus several games over time without breaking the bank, and having just as much fun because there are games we both enjoy playing together, and a hand full of games we can play with family and friends (game party for example).

 

Its really a matter of taste in then end. Anyone can dig on anything and say someone else did it first, but if your a core gamer, chances are you would rather play a Sony system and say Nintnedo sucks. But for me, a casual and classic gamer, its about the first time I popped in Kirbys Adventure or Super Mario Bros. 3. It is about bringing home the SNES and opening it up to see Super Mario Allstars AND World in the box, and making my way through Special World. It was about experiencing 3D in my home for the FIRST time, saving Corneria from the evil Andross, and beating all 3 episodes of Doom without having to purchase a high end computer, or all the memories of blasting friends in Goldeneye 007 on the 64, collecting 118 stars in Super Mario 64, or endless hours playing Mario Kart 64.

THATS what Nintendo has done for me and many millions more.

 

Also, as mentioned above, Nintendo brought the real 3D experience home first with the SNES and games like Mario Kart, Star Fox, F-Zero, Hyper Zone, and Doom. And the cartridges that had to use the FX chip werent $100 like virtua racer.. I think thats pretty innovative.

[Retro Rogue]

Why so much hate for Nintendo?

 

I don't think there's been hate for Nintendo, at least not in what I've posted. I'm just more interested in answering the original poster's question and some of the misidentified firsts that have been presented by some.

[kool kitty89]

I believe Smurf: Rescue in Gargamel's Castle came out the same year as Pitfall. I have always wondered which game was released first.

 

Wow, good point, and they seem to have been released at almost the same time (Pitfall seems like it may have been completed later), but Smurf is like a full run and jump platform adventure (and a bit of scrolling during page flipping for somewhat smoother gameplay).

[kool kitty89]

Just like Atari (in the beggining anyway) Nintendo found a way to take something that was sort of in the dark, and shine a big ol' spot light on it.

Hmm, to some extent, but they haven't necessarily done that more than others, and if you were talking about any of my posts, no real hate, at least not at Nintendo, but some frustration at some people's holier than thou attitude and ignorance of the bad as well as the good...

 

Did they come up with motion control? No. Did they come up with touch screen? No. Did they come up with 3D? No.

None of those things are super innovative IMO, gimmiks that sell (both are often detrimental and shovelware magnets and in many cases where it does work well it conventional control is still close or better I'd be very happy if almost all Wii games supported the GC controller as an alternative), but nothing mind blowing IMO (good for buisness fir sure, they print money after all ), though the new stereo-optic thing seems pretty interesting, I seem to recall Intel promoting a similar screen recently too, really neat and seems to avoid some of the disorientation and headaches of other stereoptical methods. (Sega was probably the first to do that really well at hone on the Mk.III/SMS with LCD shutter lenses much like current 3DTVs and with similar drawbacks -worked better than red/cyan or the virtual boy and wasn't cumbersome with full color on a normal TV, would have been interesting to see on the Genesis -and far cheaper than the VR unit they ended up abandoning)

 

Yes, they've managed to once again tap into a new sector or the market with the Wii, or rather re-tapped (and expanded) something that was starting to get neglected. (the NES did that to a fair degree, and I do have some personal anecdotes to tie into it too)

 

 

Were they innovative about it? Yes! They took technology that was otherwise forgotten about, and made advances on it, and found innovative ways a way to make it fun, not just for core gamers, but EVERYONE. The Wii for example is the first gaming console my mom and dad have touched since Atari. Family members that never owned a console before have a Wii in their home.

 

Not only did they make it fun for everyone, they also made it affordable for everyone.. I can regularly pick up Wii games for under $20.. we can go to our basement and play pool, go to the movies, or have a bbq with friends and have tons of fun without breaking the bank, but we were also able to purchase a wii, extra controllers and chargers plus several games over time without breaking the bank, and having just as much fun because there are games we both enjoy playing together, and a hand full of games we can play with family and friends (game party for example).

I haven't seen new Wii games for under $35 at retail (some older/less popular releases for less, but not high profile titles), but we've always bought used or at bargain prices so it's not too much of an issue, and PC games are FAR cheaper (though I haven't been current with PC gaming since last generation, I keep tabs and prices are 1/2 to 1/4 of what they are on the PS3/360 new, even mroe dramatic used)

I've got tons of stuff to look for on older consoles anyway, so it's all good. (and if Wii quality graphics -or slightly better- are fine, there's tons of great stuff to look for on the GC or Xbox if you were into the PS2 last gen or simply missed a lot of games -as many average gamers would) Older PC games too that should be fine even on lower end current computers.

 

And in the case of retro gamers, much, much more. (and I've found in most cases, real games are cheaper or very similar in cost to VC anyway and really botched in a few cases on VC)

Much of the best Wiiware is also cross platform. (Telltale and Lucas Arts have all their stuff on PC iirc)

 

Its really a matter of taste in then end. Anyone can dig on anything and say someone else did it first, but if your a core gamer, chances are you would rather play a Sony system and say Nintnedo sucks. But for me, a casual and classic gamer, its about the first time I popped in Kirbys Adventure or Super Mario Bros. 3. It is about bringing home the SNES and opening it up to see Super Mario Allstars AND World in the box, and making my way through Special World. It was about experiencing 3D in my home for the FIRST time, saving Corneria from the evil Andross, and beating all 3 episodes of Doom without having to purchase a high end computer, or all the memories of blasting friends in Goldeneye 007 on the 64, collecting 118 stars in Super Mario 64, or endless hours playing Mario Kart 64.

THATS what Nintendo has done for me and many millions more.

I hate labels like hardcore and such, they're stupid and make people overlook broader aspects of consoles, though in thecase of the Wii it really is a fairly small portion of good more serious or adult games, but for things liek the Xbox it gets labeled such and people ignore the platformers and adventure games, and the opposite on the GC or N64. (when it was the N64 which really popularized console exclusive FPSs with split screen multiplayer)

 

The N64 took party multiplayer to a standard, that's the defining factor for the system IMO (and I was the perfect age during its life span), the Xbox and GC both did that well too, and PC to some extent (mainly in respects to LAN, though there was some split screen). In fact, that's a huge reason why I'm more fond of the Xbox and GC of last gen consoles (DC had potential for it too though), I had plenty of friends with PS2s, but by far they ended up doing single player stuff, and when it was 2 player there was the problem of having more than a couple people wanting to play.

 

And the Doom comment makes no sense: that the quality of the game you got on the SNES and the time it was released, most mid range PCs could play it better, and older/low end PCs could play it well enough or be upgraded to do so (with MANY other advantages and many other games meriting such, like X-Wing, Tie Fighter, a bunch of newer adventure games, Mech Warrior II, etc -though several need a bit more than Doom or X-Wing). Compared to SNES, take a 40 MHz AM386DX (or one of the low cost 486s or 386/486 alternatives) with a baseline VGA PC and adlib/soundblaster card (I don't remember if Doom has covox/sound source DAC support for sfx, I know wolf3D does) with 4 MB of RAM and you shoudl have been able to run it at a reasonable framerate (15+ FPS -SNES is slower than that iirc) in low detail and ~70% screen height/width (so higher res than the SNES) and have the missing animation, lack of control lag, missing levels, 8-sided sprites, full textures, proper AI, a save function, better controls, etc. (getting it to run as well as the 32x would have been tougher not to mention Jaguar -which did things the PC version couldn't)

 

Also, as mentioned above, Nintendo brought the real 3D experience home first with the SNES and games like Mario Kart, Star Fox, F-Zero, Hyper Zone, and Doom. And the cartridges that had to use the FX chip werent $100 like virtua racer.. I think thats pretty innovative.

Huh, how so? There was software rendered 3D on earlier consoles (Elite on the NES was an early one -wire frame with hidden line removal), and Mode 7 games aren't really 3D (and mode 7 is used for a lot more than that too, namely cases like bosses and certain animations -in SMW for example).

Virtua Racing was pricey, but so were Super FX games (more so for Super FX 2), Super FX 1 tended to be a little more than $10 cheaper, Super FX 2 games were far closer. (especially the 2 MB ones -remember ROM was a fair chunk of cost and many sfx1 games were 512 kB or 1 MB, Yoshi's Island and Doom were 2 MB -it's also part of what made games like DKC (plus the cost of the workstantion graphics), and several fighting games so expensive) Hell, Phantasy Star IV was just ROM and SRAM+Battery and cost $100 due to its size.

There were several software rendered 3D games on the Genesis, even a couple on the SNES (much more primitive -makes me wonder why they didn't use the DSP-1), and many, many more if you look toward home computer platforms. (many competing directly with the NES, SMS, SNES, and MD in Europe)

And more if you count the Sega CD, of course. (and a good bit of scaling/rotation/warping more advanced than mode 7 -though underutilized on the whole, but again, that's not really 3D necessarily -there are some cases of texture mapped polygons and ray cast surfaces too -namely in batman and robin or batman returns -also in F-1 Beyond the limit and Joe Montana NFL)

 

Star fox's good game design is what made it, it wasn't really technically impressive overall at the time (for the SNES alone it was) and it needed that tech to do what it did, but it was the game itself that was good. (though I've heard many comments by people who -even bitd- found the graphics primitive and framerate barely playable -in one case Doom was argued as more fluid -I don't see it though)

 

And to be sure, you have to remember it was Argonaut who pushed Nintendo to go for 3D in the first place (playing around with a conversion of a Starglider derivative and then suggesting expansion to go past the native limitations -DSP-1 probably would have been the best of what was already available on the SNES), and they hired Ben Cheese to design the chip (one of the 3 members of flare who designed the flare 1/konix multisystem chipset, the other 2 going on to design the Jaguar).

Note that Argonaut had been one of the pioneers of 3D video games, namely on home computers (would have been neat to See Starglider or Starglider 2 on the Genesis or Sega CD though).

Also interesting to note that Argonaut was rather enthusiastic about the 3D potential of the Multisystem. (probably tying into commissioning Ben Cheese -who'd designed the Flare 1/Multisystem RISC DSP -which also makes me wonder if the Super FX was a direct derivative of that DSP core)

Edited June 30, 2010 by kool kitty89

[gdement]

Also, as mentioned above, Nintendo brought the real 3D experience home first with the SNES and games like Mario Kart, Star Fox, F-Zero, Hyper Zone, and Doom. And the cartridges that had to use the FX chip werent $100 like virtua racer.. I think thats pretty innovative.

Huh, how so? There was software rendered 3D on earlier consoles (Elite on the NES was an early one -wire frame with hidden line removal), and Mode 7 games aren't really 3D (and mode 7 is used for a lot more than that too, namely cases like bosses and certain animations -in SMW for example).

 

Prior to the SNES, console games in a 3D perspective sucked. Mode 7 was primitive but basic 2D scaling alone made a big improvement, enough that 3D actually started to be fun. I was a Genesis fan but even I was impressed when I saw F-Zero.

Edited June 30, 2010 by gdement

[DracIsBack]

 

Prior to the SNES, console games in a 3D perspective sucked. Mode 7 was primitive but basic 2D scaling alone made a big improvement, enough that 3D actually started to be fun. I was a Genesis fan but even I was impressed when I saw F-Zero.

 

Scaling didn't impress me at the time ... mostly because scaling on the Lynx in 1989 (Blue Lightning) already showed me what it could do.

[mbd30]

I remember me and my friends were blown away by stuff like the mode 7 airships in "Final Fantasy II". We had never seen anything like it on a console. But then none of us had ever owned a Lynx.

 

I think "Star Fox" was impressive by early 1993 standards. The 32-bit consoles didn't exist yet. 3D acceleration for computers didn't exist yet.

[jeremysart]

None of those things are super innovative IMO, gimmiks that sell

 

The touch screen, not so innovative, but I do enjoy the motion and tilt control. Never said it wasnt done on other systems, but rather its the highlight of the system and lots of fun. If it werent for the motion control, I dont think I could get my family to sit around the tv and race, play darts or shuffle board with their unique avatars (mii's or whatever you want to call them)

 

 

I haven't seen new Wii games for under $35 at retail (some older/less popular releases for less, but not high profile titles), but we've always bought used or at bargain prices so it's not too much of an issue, and PC games are FAR cheaper...

 

Most of the Wii games I have bought were close to $20, and not bad shovel ware crap either. The only titles I spent more for were New Super Mario Bros, Twilight Princess, and Mario Kart, which were still well under what new PS3 or 360 games cost. $35 retail is pretty decent even, I'll be a lot quicker to buy a game for 35 than 60. As far as PC or older consoles, thats sort of drifting off topic, we were focusing on the Wii and newer consoles. Your comment was relevent, but I was talking about how I can get family and friends of all ages to play on the Wii, thats not going to happen with a PC.

I love older consoles, I am a classic gamer, I own pretty much every console from the VCS up to now, and I do collect games for them, but thats beside the point.

 

I hate labels like hardcore and such, they're stupid and make people overlook broader aspects of consoles

 

I didnt say "hardcore", I said core, which refferes to those that care more about graphics, hardware, and adult games such as modern warfare. The Wii generally is more for casual gamers, not to say that there arent casual games on other consoles, or more violent/adult games (no more heroes) on the Wii..

 

And the Doom comment makes no sense: that the quality of the game you got on the SNES and the time it was released, most mid range PCs could play it better, and older/low end PCs could play it well enough or be upgraded to do so

 

See, now thats where you are wrong. I dont know if you remember how much computers were back in 1992-94, but our SNES was only $160 when we got it in 93, packaged with Super Mario World and All Stars. Our family could not afford a $900+ PC. To run Doom on a PC, you must at least have at least a 386 and a VGA graphics card with at least a 256 color depth. When Doom came out in 93, most people were still running 286's that either had no hard drive, or very little hard drive space, cga or monochrome video. Its kind of like the misconception that most people own HDTV's and blueray right now.. when 70% of people still use CRT and DVD..

And even if you had a computer capable of running it, unless you had a top of the line PC at the time, you were probably running it in fairly low resolution anyway.

Although the SNES Doom is low res and pretty slow, it does still offer all the original enemies, weapons, powerups, and all three un-altered episodes including the secret levels. Plus the music was pretty rad (another issue with the PC.. you also had to buy a soundblaster or compatible if you did not own a new pc or your low end pc did not come with a sound card.. and boy playing with PC speaker sounds is less than desirable.)

 

Huh, how so? There was software rendered 3D on earlier consoles (Elite on the NES was an early one -wire frame with hidden line removal), and Mode 7 games aren't really 3D (and mode 7 is used for a lot more than that too, namely cases like bosses and certain animations -in SMW for example).

 

I knew I should have specified, that by "real 3D experience", I was not counting vector line graphics, or faux 3D space harrier style rail shooters. I was talking about shaded and or textured polygons in mostly 3D rendered environments, and not shrunk down to 1:4 the screen size so that it runs smoother. The frame rate in Doom may be chuggy and unbearable to some, but not at all in Starfox.

Also, how is Mode7 not 3D? Have you played F-Zero or Hyperzone? Though the math may not technically be "3D", the environments are in a 3D perspective, that can be moved about freely, textured, and objects have actual depth and can move infront or behind, above and below you in space.

And again, we are talking about consoles not PC's, and most of the argument for Nintendo is about bringing things to the masses at reasonable prices. Not everyone could afford a PC at the time. Super FX games generally cost $60, the rest were same as today, between $30 and 50 depending on the type of game and popularity.

 

Anyway, I do get and understand most of what you are arguing, and by all means I am not a person who talks like "Thou shalt not smite thy Nintendo game gods".. im not like that about any console or company.. I just tend to stick up for Intellivision and Nintendo in generally because they both get picked on a lot of the time for no reason, or people like to point out every possible flaw or downside, when there are lots of gems on the systems.

Edited June 30, 2010 by jeremysart

[DracIsBack]

I think "Star Fox" was impressive by early 1993 standards. The 32-bit consoles didn't exist yet. 3D acceleration for computers didn't exist yet.

 

Also had good art direction too. When I first played Cybermorph, the technical folks were talking about how it had more polys, wasn't on rails etc. But I just thought the game looked ugly compare to bright Star Fox.

[Atari2600Lives]

Here is (by far) the biggest thing Nintendo brought to the table....this one is hard to top...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shigeru_Miyamoto

 

This guy deserves far more credit than Shigiwhatsit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sid_Meier

 

 

Sid is great but not sure what he has to do with Nintendo....also your really underestimating Shigawhatsit's contribution to gaming..

[Retro Rogue]

See, now thats where you are wrong. I dont know if you remember how much computers were back in 1992-94, but our SNES was only $160 when we got it in 93, packaged with Super Mario World and All Stars. Our family could not afford a $900+ PC. To run Doom on a PC, you must at least have at least a 386 and a VGA graphics card with at least a 256 color depth. When Doom came out in 93, most people were still running 286's that either had no hard drive, or very little hard drive space, cga or monochrome video.

 

Actually, that's where you'd be wrong though. Early 90's it was 386's (introduced in '85) and 486's (introduced in '89), with the pentium first introduced in '93. And low end hard drives in PC compats were already commonplace. 286's were already way way outdated.

 

 

PC.. you also had to buy a soundblaster or compatible if you did not own a new pc or your low end pc did not come with a sound card.. and boy playing with PC speaker sounds is less than desirable.)

 

You make it sound like such a chore to have a 386 with a common VGA and soundblaster card, when such systems were already common low end systems by the time of Doom.

[high voltage]

Here is (by far) the biggest thing Nintendo brought to the table....this one is hard to top...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shigeru_Miyamoto

 

This guy deserves far more credit than Shigiwhatsit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sid_Meier

 

 

Sid is great but not sure what he has to do with Nintendo....also your really underestimating Shigawhatsit's contribution to gaming..

 

 

See, Shigeru was OK but later he didn't do much, just throwing his name around, bit like Roberta Williams. Sid did far more for gaming, but not a lot to do with Nintendo, and that's a good thing.

 

 

On a different note, here's a great 'real' 3D game on Amiga from 1991:

http://www.mobygames.com/game/amiga/hunter/cover-art/gameCoverId,80141/

[+GameGirl420]

When the NES came out, the biggest innovation I can remember was that it had games that you can actually pass and see the endings. It was'nt about who had the higher score anymore,the NES brought games that actually had a real goal in them.Plus the Legend of Zelda is the first game I remember where you can actually "save" a game and go back to where you left off.

 

The music in alot of NES games were also very innovating I think. Music in Capcom and Konami games definitely raised the bar a bit.

[atarian63]

I always viewed them kind of like Apple. Other companies focus on cool technologies, Nintendo and Apple focus on making cool technologies accessible to the masses.

 

Huh?

Having a way more expensive product than your competitor is bringing it to the masses?

 

Yep that's exactly it

 

Try this instead: the mouse, graphical user interface, USB, multi-touch interface, etc. You know, those things you take for granted now.

more items apple stole from others,then over priced them

[Emehr]

I always viewed them kind of like Apple. Other companies focus on cool technologies, Nintendo and Apple focus on making cool technologies accessible to the masses.

 

Huh?

Having a way more expensive product than your competitor is bringing it to the masses?

 

Yep that's exactly it

 

Try this instead: the mouse, graphical user interface, USB, multi-touch interface, etc. You know, those things you take for granted now.

more items apple stole from others,then over priced them

The point was this:

Nintendo and Apple focus on making cool technologies accessible to the masses.

 

How do your and jetset's replies dispute this?

[kool kitty89]

Scaling didn't impress me at the time ... mostly because scaling on the Lynx in 1989 (Blue Lightning) already showed me what it could do.

It was neat, and it was fairly impressive for the time (256 color scaled/rotated tile layer -I think added raster effects with some overhead had to be used for the warping effect seen in most racing games and such).

 

The Lynx's scaling was different, it was more flexible but was only simple zooming like many arcade games, not rotation, but the SNES can only do 1 (or 2 with 1/s the colors iirc) mode 7 tiles, and in their simplest form they're used in case like Bowser and Ludwig Von Koopa in SMW, and can be the only BG displayed while on-screen (just the sold color window layer -those boss battles using sprites for the BG details, games like F-Zero change the video mode on the horizon to manage a proper BG)

 

I think the Amiga Blitter could manage scaling somewhat like the Lynx, but I'm not sure. (it might involve a fair bit of CPU overhead)

 

 

 

I remember me and my friends were blown away by stuff like the mode 7 airships in "Final Fantasy II". We had never seen anything like it on a console. But then none of us had ever owned a Lynx.

 

I think "Star Fox" was impressive by early 1993 standards. The 32-bit consoles didn't exist yet. 3D acceleration for computers didn't exist yet.

It was neat, but the graphics were fairly primitive for 1993, and it was all 15-color stuff on top of that, hence the dithering compared to games like Stunt Racer and Dirt Trax), it does have a full tile layer behind it though for a proper 15/16 color tile graphics.

 

3D acceleration has nothing to do with it... it wasn't until 1996 that acceleration even started to become close to popular on consumer PCs, up to then it was all software rendering and for a time after that acceleration was optional even for windows games. X-Wing, Tie Fighter, Doom (and related), Duke Nukem 3D, Quake (DOS), Tomb Raider, Wing Commander III, Wing Commander IV, etc were all software rendered (albeit requiring increasing CPU grunt), a few offered highcolor rendering too, though mainly those with acceleration support (some DOS games supported acceleration too, all that did had it optional as with many early win9x games -even Tomb Raider II)

 

It still wasn't too much more advanced than the best the Sega CD had to offer (Silpheed was prerendered animation and scaling sprites -though it tricked a lot of reviewers, but Stellar Fire is all realtime), then there's stuff on the PC, Amiga, ST (or X68000 or FM Towns in Japan), well for the Amiga and ST, the standard machines wouldn't be too great (more like the Genesis's 3D or old 286 PC stuff -though better than EGA color), but the 32-bit Amigas would be up to snuff. Tons of older PC and Amiga stuff that looks somewhat like star fox, but normally running slow -on stock 68k machines- and/or with low polygon count. (Starglider 2 has a rather similar style, not surprisingly) Older PC games too, though often EGA, they would be running much smoother than the ST/Amiga/Genesis contemporaries with even a low-end PC in 1992/93. (things like Stellar 7, Mech Warrior, Frontier, etc -again much faster on better than 68k amigas too -less options for ST users though some games on all platforms were timing sensitive though, so they could run too fast)

 

I like star fox, it's one of my favorite SNES games (if not my favorite), but the graphics are only OK for 1993 (on a PC it would have had more color, no dithering, and possibly even gouraud shading), but the game design is what counts, and it's great. (and I don't think it would play was well as a scaled 2D game either, it has a different feel -one thing for me is the kind of game that feels right with inverted y axis, and that's definitely true here, most 2D scalers don't feel right, though even wing commander manages that in scaled 2D)

 

The Jaguar and 3DO easily blew it out of the water in terms of graphics, even common PCs in that respect (there were trade-offs though and PC tech was ever improving)

 

 

 

 

The touch screen, not so innovative, but I do enjoy the motion and tilt control. Never said it wasnt done on other systems, but rather its the highlight of the system and lots of fun. If it werent for the motion control, I dont think I could get my family to sit around the tv and race, play darts or shuffle board with their unique avatars (mii's or whatever you want to call them)

 

Oh yeah, it's great with casual games, I just wish it wasn't as forced... Bowling and golf are some of the best... Tennis is pretty lame IMO. (something like Mario Tennis is much more fun, wii sports tennis seems sort of stupid in the way it works -maybe if it had nunchuck support and allowed the player to be controlled)

 

Most of the Wii games I have bought were close to $20, and not bad shovel ware crap either. The only titles I spent more for were New Super Mario Bros, Twilight Princess, and Mario Kart, which were still well under what new PS3 or 360 games cost. $35 retail is pretty decent even, I'll be a lot quicker to buy a game for 35 than 60. As far as PC or older consoles, thats sort of drifting off topic, we were focusing on the Wii and newer consoles. Your comment was relevent, but I was talking about how I can get family and friends of all ages to play on the Wii, thats not going to happen with a PC.

I love older consoles, I am a classic gamer, I own pretty much every console from the VCS up to now, and I do collect games for them, but thats beside the point.

Yes, and that's why I'd sooner build a decent gaming PC than buy a console, at least until cheap/used stuff becomes common, and the reliability of used hardware isn't promising either. (a lot of older current gen games will work great with mid-range PC hardware, and newer stuff at lower detal -though that may still be close to 360 quality)

 

I'm honestly more interested in building a classic gaming rig though (lots of older games that are a pain to run well or at all that I'd love to play), plus we've got all the parts for that laying around at home... somewhere.

 

I didnt say "hardcore", I said core, which refferes to those that care more about graphics, hardware, and adult games such as modern warfare. The Wii generally is more for casual gamers, not to say that there arent casual games on other consoles, or more violent/adult games (no more heroes) on the Wii..

I like both, as long as it's fun to play, serious games or satirical ones, etc, it depends on the case. I can't dey the graphics either, it's always a factor, but never the only factor: all about presentation, and sometimes more advanced gaphics feel off (ie if they did a straight classic star fox remake in high detail texture mapped 3D, it would be a bit off, but one with high framerate and resolution with moderately higher detail, gouraud shading, and a few billboard textures to preserve the feel, it could work IMO -they sort of did that on warioware even) I hated SMB allstars for that reason... (it looked and sounded wrong, SMB2 and 4 were far more reasonable given the original style on the NES)

 

Although the SNES Doom is low res and pretty slow, it does still offer all the original enemies, weapons, powerups, and all three un-altered episodes including the secret levels. Plus the music was pretty rad (another issue with the PC.. you also had to buy a soundblaster or compatible if you did not own a new pc or your low end pc did not come with a sound card.. and boy playing with PC speaker sounds is less than desirable.)

No it's missing a lot, it plays off (one sided enemies messed up AI, messed up shotgun, messed up sound effects, missing levels, etc). It is missing levels, but more selectively than the 32x version, and is closer to the PC maps in some ways too, but it's far less playable than any except maybe the 3DO port (not sure, but some claim the controls lag more). The Jag version has much more content though it is missing some enemies and the music (which PSX and Saturn omit too), it's very playable and looks better than the PC or PSX versions in some ways. (very smooth shading native to the console, though in low detail unlike PSX/Saturn/3DO -latter 2 probably should have been in low detail mode though)

It's not bad given the limitations of 128 kB of RAM a simple 21 MHz 16-bit RISC DSP and using planar graphics (so more overhead), but they had a lot more time to work on it too, hence the late release.

The lack of full level select for lower difficulties and no save feature are big problems too. (32x gave full level select and Jag had a proper save)

 

Doom wouldn't have been a reason to by the SNES IMO, but there were many other resons to do so. (Star Fox would be, but not because of the graphics but good gameplay)

 

I knew I should have specified, that by "real 3D experience", I was not counting vector line graphics, or faux 3D space harrier style rail shooters. I was talking about shaded and or textured polygons in mostly 3D rendered environments, and not shrunk down to 1:4 the screen size so that it runs smoother. The frame rate in Doom may be chuggy and unbearable to some, but not at all in Starfox.

Elite was never simple wire frame, but proper polygonal 3D (hidden line removal being a tiny step below flat shaded polygons), but that was on the NES as an example (Archimedes, ST, and Amiga ports had shaded polygons anyway), and there were MANY, MANY more advanced games on many computers -dozens on PC amiga and ST some on 8-bits even and then you have Japan with the M Towns and X68000, and consoles too before 1993. (Genesis got a lot, though not as smooth as star fox, they were 3D and they were playable, SNES had some too, but barely playable -see Race Drivin, the Lynx managed polygons pretty well too)

If you discount Space Harrier/scaling games, you should discount mode 7 too...

 

Star fox is pretty low framerate, it peaks at 15 fps (playable) but chugs with more on screen: I didn't notice as a kid, but it often drops below 6 fpsm some find it totally umplayable outside emulators that play it too fast (which I find unplayable IMO), and Doom actually runds fairly smoothly in terms of framerate by comparison (not quite as high all the time but 15 fps peak and not slowing down as much as the worst cases in SF iirc). I know people who can't stand Star Fox but find SNES Doom playable oddly enough: I can play both, but mid Doom much more. (I actually mid the dithering in Star Fox more than the framerate at times)

 

Also, how is Mode7 not 3D? Have you played F-Zero or Hyperzone? Though the math may not technically be "3D", the environments are in a 3D perspective, that can be moved about freely, textured, and objects have actual depth and can move infront or behind, above and below you in space.

That's like saying Sonic 3D blast or Super Mario RPG is 3D. The mode 7 tile is close to 3D in some respects, but the rest is not at all, again it's a matter of semantics in some respects, but the comment about depth and position of objects means very little to being 3D. (that kind of depth occurs with other things like simpler Out Run style racers -but with a linescroll GB rather than a rotating tile) Hence BC Racers, Soulstar, and such are not 3D proper. Wolfenstein 3D and Doom aren't really 3D either, the raycast environments depict depth, but the game engine is fully 2D, no 3D calculations or rendering involved. (that's not to say raycasting can't be used to generate 3D, but that in the manner used there it's not)

Elite is 3D in the common definition, but you seem to have a differing definition. You can fake 3D beautifully with some other techniques (some of which can apply to real 3D as well) The Sega CD could manage a far more advanced stuff than mode 7 and several games show it too, but I'm digressing.

This has been discussed before and by those with a better understanding than myself ans is totally off topic.

 

And again, we are talking about consoles not PC's, and most of the argument for Nintendo is about bringing things to the masses at reasonable prices. Not everyone could afford a PC at the time. Super FX games generally cost $60, the rest were same as today, between $30 and 50 depending on the type of game and popularity.

$60 then is like $90 today, but I've seen far more mentions (and old receipts and price tags in a couple cases) of Super FX games being $80-90 at release ($120-135 with inflation).

PC vs console gaming was an option, true, and there were trade-offs (the cost of a pre-built system or the trouble of building or upgrading one -which could be done on the cheap with used hardware shops and sales). On the plus side, software was (and is) far cheaper (less so used), but at the time consoles gave rather different experiences than PCs on average... Well unless you were in Europe where the 2 were almost back to back from the 80s to the early 90s (and it wasn't the PC, but 8-bit micros and the Amiga and ST into the early 90s -then you had MUCH cheaper options as well and much more console like games -Amiga was very capable in 2D, ST was the cheaper option for most and sometimes slightly better in 3D) I assume you were thinking mainly from the US perspective though where Amiga and ST were viable options, but far less common and not thought of as game consoles as such. (as they were in Europe, more or less -and up to the late 80s, namely the MD's release, consoles were seen with the stigma of low-end kiddie toys with computers being the real gaming machines from what I understand -Master System was probably the most competitive as it actually put out stuff that often looked competitive with some ST or even Amiga stuff)

 

I have nothing against Nintendo, I just rather dislike credit given when it's not due... Star Fox was a good game facilitated by some neat thinking on Argonaut's part and the engineering skill of Ben Cheese as well as combined software efforts of Argonaut and Nintendo and with some excellent musical arrangements. But it's not the first 3D game by a long shot, and not the first on a console either.

 

 

 

 

Also had good art direction too. When I first played Cybermorph, the technical folks were talking about how it had more polys, wasn't on rails etc. But I just thought the game looked ugly compare to bright Star Fox.

 

It's an art choice, and Cybermorph went with more of a surreal approach... the main problems with the presentation are lack of backgrounds or music IMO, that and gouraud shading is only used on some planets, so it loses some advantage. It is FAR smoother than Star fox, had many times more detail, and much more color (complete lack of dithering for one -though for flat shading you can manage that with 256 colors as did Dirt Trax and Stunt racer compared to the 15-color Star fox -not counting the BG tile layer).

 

Some of the later Star Fox level have very similar color schemes to Cybermorph, and a few in Cybermorph match closer to Star Fox's corneria stage, but I really think it's the BG and music that kills Cybermorph in terms of presentation.

 

That's just presentation though, and Star fox is a far simpler linear game (Star Fox 2 is not), and a different type of game in general, one that has a broader appeal in part for the simplicity. The on-rails aspect also greatly facilitates rendering too (nothing to worry about behind you in most cases). It's a bit of a shame the Jag didn't get a 3D railshooter among many other things, like devs considering non-polygonal pseudo 3D stuff (sprites for added detail, raycasting, and especially voxels -can you imagien Cybermorph with voxel terrain! even if Comanche quality -rather than the outstanding Phase Zero)

Some even prefer fully scaling based games like Soulstar (good on the Sega CD, stunning on the Jaguar prototype), but that's more limiting IMO. (It's like AVGN's comment about F-Zero looking better than Checkered Flag, they're totally different games with different styles and one isn't even 3D -CF's problems are non graphical, looks better than Genesis virtua racing by a good margin but plays far worse -World Tour Racing did it Right)

 

 

 

 

Actually, that's where you'd be wrong though. Early 90's it was 386's (introduced in '85) and 486's (introduced in '89), with the pentium first introduced in '93. And low end hard drives in PC compats were already commonplace. 286's were already way way outdated.

They would still have been more expensive, but that's true in general, but it would vary from home brewed systems (especially with used parts) vs preassembled units, and upgrades vs an entire new system. (back then our home computer was largely used parts bought at budget prices -including a grayscale SVGA monitor with cracks in the vens on the back ) Of course, you need to know a bit to assemble your own machine.

In the case of upgrades, a 286 (or even older) board would be stuck (replace motherboard: case, sound and video might be re-used if adequate), but any 386 (even SX) boards with a few ISA slots and you could upgrade it a good deal: minimum for full sound in a game like Doom and x-wing would be a sound blaster would be a 64 kB VGA/MCGA card (both run in mode 13H, so even MCGA should work), 4 MB system RAM, a HD floppy drive (not sure if Doom was on 5.25" but X-Wing was in 1993 -might have even been QD and not HD) and one of the Cyrix or IBM 386/486SLC chips. (a 386DX motherboard would have other options like an AM486-40 or 386/486DLC.

 

It obviously depends on the circumstances, but in the case of a household with no PC at all that would be the most extreme. (I'm not sure on prices, but I'd imagine you could hack together a low-end DOS machine with used parts and a used VGA monitor -especially grayscale- for a couple hundred dollars -you'd need to know how or have a friend/relative to help out)

 

By the time Doom was released on the SNES the console was only $100 (dropped to that by late 1994 iirc) and Doom was 2 years old already. (and the SNES version looked worse than pretty much any other port, 3DO may have had worse controlls though and 32x had arguably worse content -but was far more playable IMO -not sure why 3DO opted for high detail mode, it really should have been low detail like Jag/32x/SNES

 

 

 

 

 

On a different note, here's a great 'real' 3D game on Amiga from 1991:

http://www.mobygames.com/game/amiga/hunter/cover-art/gameCoverId,80141/

 

Oh, come on, there's loads more than that on the Amiga and ST, dozens of games, plus those on PC (or all 3). Elite, Elite 2, Starglider 2, Epic, Zero 5, P[ace Fighter, Steel Talons, various flight sims, Hard Drivin' a few racing games (one hoverbike type game iirc). Some came after Star Fox too, of course.

 

 

 

 

When the NES came out, the biggest innovation I can remember was that it had games that you can actually pass and see the endings. It was'nt about who had the higher score anymore,the NES brought games that actually had a real goal in them.Plus the Legend of Zelda is the first game I remember where you can actually "save" a game and go back to where you left off.

Those existed earlier too, though they weren't super common, especially on consoles, but you had them.

Pitfall II comes to mind (full soundtrack too) with a neat little ending sequence with victory music, not too much different than simple "the end" or "thank you for playing" or "congraduration". Smurf may have been the earliest example, though that has less of an ending and no sound track iirc.

 

The music in alot of NES games were also very innovating I think. Music in Capcom and Konami games definitely raised the bar a bit.

That was happening across the board though, well the 7800 did what it could but was a bit stuck without a POKEY. (SMS and CV were a bit limited too though at least 3 channels, Intelliviaion and Vectrex were better and 5200 was really nice)

The C64 tended to go overboard and often sacrifice sfx (or force one to chose one or the other), though that persisted across a number of computer platforms (including Amiga and ST in some cases), but that's a developer choice, and many of such companies did some of that on consoles too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Huh?

Having a way more expensive product than your competitor is bringing it to the masses?

 

Yep that's exactly it

 

Try this instead: the mouse, graphical user interface, USB, multi-touch interface, etc. You know, those things you take for granted now.

more items apple stole from others,then over priced them

The point was this:

Nintendo and Apple focus on making cool technologies accessible to the masses.

 

How do your and jetset's replies dispute this?

This is off topic but the thing is, at the prices they had, they were NOT for the masses... PC clones were getting there (especially the likes of Tandy), and The amiga was cheaper too and orders of magnitude better value (though not quite as simple -in part due to added features), and then you had the ST:

Now that WAS bringing it to the masses! Something with a good deal MORE features and the MAC at less than 1/2 the price and even the option to run MAC software (later on). Of course, it still wasn't until that stuff went to PC that it really got widespread in the US, in part due to Apple railroading Digital Research over the BD "look and feel" thing. Though in honesty DR was never particularly good about fighting legal matters. (there was little they could do against MS though once tied to IBM -in terms of suing over DOS -stupid that the CP/M deal wasn't tied with IMB in the first place though)

Tandy did offer GEM x86 though, at least for DR-DOS, as well as their own Deskmate.

 

Some later things apple did were more applicable to your argument, but not so much with the Mac... the whole claim to first is the first commercial implementation of a GUI with the Lisa (based on work with Xerox PARC -with sort of a defacto agreement iirc, or simple lack of interest to sue on Xerox's part) and that went nowhere. By '84 others had GUIs already, though perhaps not commercially released. (I think GEM was around already -Atari had it ported to the ST with their custom CP/M port as well -lacking a commercial 68k version)

Edited July 2, 2010 by kool kitty89

[DracIsBack]

Wasn't really making a comment on Apple's pricing, which I agree with. When I said accessible, I meant that the average Joe-Q-Non-Techie would find it easy to use their products and enjoy using them because of how the technology is packaged.

 

My view on Nintendo is the same as my view on Apple. They don't do a lot of technical innovation, but they package it up nicely in a way that's easy to use and fun to use ... and that's their strength.