7800 Piggyback Expansion Module comes to life!

[Betamax001]

All that's missing now is a source for new cartridge shells.

Shame all those ET and Pacman carts were smashed by a steamroller. You could have taken the boards and labels out and put good stuff in.

[jaybird3rd]

Shame all those ET and Pacman carts were smashed by a steamroller. You could have taken the boards and labels out and put good stuff in.

That's what's been done so far: publishers have cleaned out and recycled the existing shells to build new homebrew game cartridges. I've done it myself many times. But it is very labor-intensive, and in my opinion the final product isn't quite as "fresh" as what you would get with all new materials. Besides, even though there is a plentiful supply of old cartridges right now, that supply is limited, and there will eventually come a point when we will need new ones. We have new cartridge boards, thank goodness, but we haven't seen new shells yet because of the expense involved in creating the plastic injection molds that would be required to manufacture them. Perhaps the Expansion Module will help to spark enough homebrew development to make a new batch of shells affordable, not only for the 7800 but also for the 2600 (since cartridges for both systems use the same basic shell design).

[DracIsBack]

DracIsBack was saying that I was being a killjoy and trying to discourage the team that made this by comparing it to 32X. And I'm saying that I', not, and the comparison isn't an insult.

 

Perhaps I was hasty given the other goings on in this thread.

 

That said, this SOOOO is not a 32X. It's more like an NES MMC chip if anything.

[Rex Dart]

I apologize if this has already been answered, but will the cart slot be "keyed" so that games produced for the expansion module won't fit a standard atari console? Sort of like how the Sega 32x carts were shaped.

[GroovyBee]

I apologize if this has already been answered, but will the cart slot be "keyed" so that games produced for the expansion module won't fit a standard atari console? Sort of like how the Sega 32x carts were shaped.

 

Games will be able to detect if the expansion module is present or not so they don't need to be "keyed". If its not present they could just display a red background or put up some error text. At then end of the day its down to the game programmer and available ROM space.

[potatohead]

Maybe a little, tiny mini-game. "Equip Expansion Module to avoid PONG."

[GroovyBee]

Maybe a little, tiny mini-game. "Equip Expansion Module to avoid PONG."

 

I can't say that I've ever had the desire to program a pong game. Even when I started as a teenager I was more interested in exploring what I could make my Speccy do in BASIC.

[potatohead]

I kind of like ball and paddle games. PONG isn't so much fun, but others are.

 

The first real interesting game I did on the old 400 was a Super Breakout clone. It was BASIC, with a small assist in ASM. DLI code changed the color of the bricks on one of the chunky graphics modes, which should have been 16 color anyway, from a list of values. One player for the paddle, one for the ball, and a display list for a nice score at the top.

 

The basic program scrolled the DLI values, and the bricks with that string variable pointer trick. (Define a string, then change it's data location in the pointer table, so scrolling is A$(X) = B$(Y)...) The actual game loop was tiny! One ball at a time too. No multi-ball. BASIC didn't have a fast enough loop for that to make any sense.

 

Got all the pieces from "Creative Computing", and COMPUTE! Those were the days! Go do the grocery grind with Mom, come home with some trick new code to hack on, once the food is stored.

 

Anyway, on Ataris, those games kind of made sense because of the simple sprite hardware. Many of us had VCS machines too, so the appeal was there.

 

On a non-sprite capable machine, those games kind of suck. I remember the old Apple ][ breakout in lo-res. It actually ran ok, but the movement was crap. Probably true on a lot of machines.

Edited August 2, 2010 by potatohead

[Madaracs]

Okay, haven't slept since yesterday, but here we are, this is the 7800 Expansion Module:

 

 

 

 

Very tired....

Curt

 

 

Wow. Would love one of those.

[Madaracs]

Okay, just drove back from North East CT. this morning...

 

 

Finished giving the sample plastic a simple satin coat, I need to clean it up a bit tomorrow, some fine sanding and cloth wipe it down to get more of the shine off of it and then place a temporary breadboard into it and ports, screw it together firmly so its ready for showing at CGE next week...

 

 

 

 

My brain has 'sploded. This is awesome.

[ZylonBane]

The people behind the 7800 Expansion Module don't want it to be perceived as something that transforms the 7800 into a different system, which is what the strong reaction was about.

It's an academic distinction at best. Either way, it necessitates the creation of games that can only be played by people who've bought the expansion module. Any 7800 coders who want their games to reach the maximum theoretical audience must logically avoid this thing like the plague.

 

If homebrewer resources were infinite, I wouldn't have a problem with the expansion module and any games created for it. But homebrewer resources are in fact shockingly limited (especially when it comes to the 7800), so the harsh reality is that products like this, which attempt to subtract finite resources from mainstream 7800 development, are actively harmful to the community.

 

Theoretically, anyway.

[GroovyBee]

So ZB we'll be seeing your 7800 magnum opus sometime soon then?

[potatohead]

LOL!!!

 

"harmful..."

 

Well, here's something to chew on. Because of that expansion, and the H2 project, I'm very seriously wanting to jump in and start working with the 7800. Was off the table before, just FYI. I know I'm not alone in that.

 

Edited August 3, 2010 by potatohead

[GroovyBee]

But homebrewer resources are in fact shockingly limited (especially when it comes to the 7800), so the harsh reality is that products like this, which attempt to subtract finite resources from mainstream 7800 development, are actively harmful to the community.

 

How can it be harmful to the community when several homebrew programmers are working on games for the module? I've had more PMs about 7800 development in the last few months than I did before the expansion module was being actively developed. More programmers means more projects and therefore potentially more games. Taking a derogatory stance against developers looking forward to working on games for the module will do more harm than good.

 

Since you say that are an assembly language programmer ZB how about you do something positive for the 7800 community instead of whining about it?

[Emehr]

it necessitates the creation of games that can only be played by people who've bought the expansion module. Any 7800 coders who want their games to reach the maximum theoretical audience must logically avoid this thing like the plague.

Why even develop for the 7800 at all? After all, every 7800 is backwards compatible with the 2600. By developing games strictly for the 7800, those who only have a 2600 are being left out in the cold. By developing 2600-only games, the maximum theoretical audience is reached.

 

See how silly that sounds?

[GrandviewCoin]

Its not silly at all. The 7800 was a established format. It was only backwards compatible to take advantage of a well known and sometimes previously purchased game library.

 

FYI I want to buy this, and the games for it. But if you step back, ZB does make a good point.

[desiv]

Funny, I don't remember people complaining about things like this when the CC2 came out.

 

"It's going to split the homebrew community. Some will only develop games that can use a Pokey and extra RAM, and how many people have a CC2????"

 

That didn't seem to cause too many problems...

 

Could be me tho.. Maybe I missed it..

 

desiv

[DracIsBack]

My god, people just bitch and bitch and bitch. Let it go already, kill-joys.

[Emehr]

Its not silly at all. The 7800 was a established format. It was only backwards compatible to take advantage of a well known and sometimes previously purchased game library.

 

FYI I want to buy this, and the games for it. But if you step back, ZB does make a good point.

And I would argue that the 7800+expansion module is backwards compatible with 7800 games. See where I'm going with this? ZylonBane makes a silly point.

 

I want to see this expansion module see the light of day and all the negative comments aren't helping. It's not like Atari is picking up the slack here developing any new-old hardware. If it weren't for Curt and Legacy Engineering a lot of this cool stuff would just be in our imaginations, now what good does that do anybody?

[GrandviewCoin]

Its not silly at all. The 7800 was a established format. It was only backwards compatible to take advantage of a well known and sometimes previously purchased game library.

 

FYI I want to buy this, and the games for it. But if you step back, ZB does make a good point.

And I would argue that the 7800+expansion module is backwards compatible with 7800 games. See where I'm going with this? ZylonBane makes a silly point.

 

I want to see this expansion module see the light of day and all the negative comments aren't helping. It's not like Atari is picking up the slack here developing any new-old hardware. If it weren't for Curt and Legacy Engineering a lot of this cool stuff would just be in our imaginations, now what good does that do anybody?

 

 

I'm not being negative at all. I want this, end of story. I'd like to get as many games as possible. I can just see what point he is making.. Doesn't mean I am against anything..

 

Hell, as a currently unemployed Illustrator, I'd love to help out in the packaging/label design aspect of it. Would give me something fun to do.

[AtariNerd]

Hmmm, aren't there several 7800 "special edition" home-brew games already in existence that require extra memory or a Pokey that aren't generally being produced anymore? Many missed out. I say come early next year, make a few deals with developers and offer a "second-chance" for early-adopters, offering the goods for a limited time at the cost of regular-edition game. That, along with a couple exclusives might wet the appetites a little.

[philipj]

You know the 7800 needs a pokey or a speakjet sound chip like the one on the Atarivox for better sound quality. Why not add a sound processor to the module? Graphically the system is capable of some untapped stuff, but the sound is still 2600 quality stuff.

[The_Laird]

It does have a Pokey

[Curt Vendel]

Your theory is flawed:

 

#1 - the Expansion module has High Score capability in it and for all games written for it, it allows those games to use that functionality. I only built and sold 120 High Score Cartridges and people have always asked for more. Even if no new "XM" games are ever written, all of the current HSC coded games will all work on the module, it doesn't require finite coder resources to HSC enable games and now with these modules, those who never got an HSC will not be able to enjoy that functionality.

 

#2 - games which have begged for better sound such as Donkey Kong, Pac Man (all variations) and games never written - like say Berzerk, will now have that ability with the module ontop of the high scoring.

 

#3 - The module includes expansion ports on it, not available anywhere before - to use SIO devices (like SDCARD SIO disk Drives), Modems and even allowing the system through SIO2PC to use a PC to run game code or perhaps if someone codes it - to be a developer station.

 

The Expansion Module will also have a DB-15 (yes I changed it) Keyboard Interface Port, to allow more advanced games - like Star Raiders, or modem terminals or a developer station to be run on the system.

 

The expansion module gives more of what is already being coded for and used (High Score) enables existing games to be enhanced and now allows for even more complex games to be done that coders have not been able to do previously. The expansion capabilities open up a whole new door for the 7800 to do far far more then ever before.

 

 

The people behind the 7800 Expansion Module don't want it to be perceived as something that transforms the 7800 into a different system, which is what the strong reaction was about.

It's an academic distinction at best. Either way, it necessitates the creation of games that can only be played by people who've bought the expansion module. Any 7800 coders who want their games to reach the maximum theoretical audience must logically avoid this thing like the plague.

 

If homebrewer resources were infinite, I wouldn't have a problem with the expansion module and any games created for it. But homebrewer resources are in fact shockingly limited (especially when it comes to the 7800), so the harsh reality is that products like this, which attempt to subtract finite resources from mainstream 7800 development, are actively harmful to the community.

 

Theoretically, anyway.

[AtariNerd]

Is the YAMAHA sound chip that was proposed, still going to be implemented in this early design, or is that going to be left as an option for a plug-in by other developers in the future? I know implementation and development costs might be an issue. Thinking about such games as Contra, which use a similar chip, what a treat it might be to port over the arcade sound, if possible. The game might even run just a touch faster, with the Maria being given just a schoosh more breathing space.

Edited August 5, 2010 by AtariNerd