7800 Piggyback Expansion Module comes to life!

[GroovyBee]

Its capable of this :-

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/166904-expansion-module-game-sneak-peek/

[nathanallan]

Its capable of this :-

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/166904-expansion-module-game-sneak-peek/

Saw that, it's all I needed to know that I wanted one for sure

[GroovyBee]

Saw that, it's all I needed to know that I wanted one for sure

 

Easy sell! . The game is currently running on a stock 7800 with a CC2. It won't be long before it'll exceed what the CC2 can offer and be a true expansion module game.

[+SpiceWare]

I was wondering if anyone is planning of putting up any videos of the demonstration at CGE 2010.

the unit on display was not functional. I have a couple photos of it on my site, the 2nd and 3rd photo on page 5.

[philipj]

I was wondering if anyone is planning of putting up any videos of the demonstration at CGE 2010.

the unit on display was not functional. I have a couple photos of it on my site, the 2nd and 3rd photo on page 5.

 

That's pretty neat looking... I look foward to this thing being released... It's about time the 7800 got some props. Now all that's left to do is to make some nes style control pads for the system. I would suggest using a speakjet for a sound processor but those things run $24 a pop.

 

[mos6507]

I would suggest using a speakjet for a sound processor but those things run $24 a pop.

 

No they don't. I got a good deal on a bulk order and I (and probably others) can probably do so again if you haggle.

 

If the 7800XM has extra controller ports then hooking up an AtariVox for extra sounds would be a good idea since it would still give you full access to the regular controller ports. That was what I was hoping to do with Chimera. It could probably hook up to SIO with the right cable.

Edited August 10, 2010 by mos6507

[GroovyBee]

I would suggest using a speakjet for a sound processor but those things run $24 a pop.

 

A speech chip is only suitable for a limited number of games. The expansion module will have POKEY for music and effects. The YM2151 is also being evaluated.

[philipj]

I've always wanted to use the Speakjets for more than just speach synthesis. Theoretically it can handle music as well, if not better, then the POKEY having a couple of more sound channels then the POKEY... I've yet to hear anyone make any music with it though.

 

Will the 2151 be an additional sound chip to be added to the module? Now that would certainly bring the 7800 to an oldschool arcade machine like status provided you all use a Z80 as a sound controller. lol

[ATARI7800fan]

Nice pictures, though I would still appreciate it if someone put up some video of the games for it as soon as it would be convenient for them to do so. Have a nice day.

[desiv]

Now all that's left to do is to make some nes style control pads for the system.

 

You mean like the 7800 joypads?

 

desiv

[GroovyBee]

Nice pictures, though I would still appreciate it if someone put up some video of the games for it as soon as it would be convenient for them to do so. Have a nice day.

 

You'll have to be patient like everybody else.

[+SpiceWare]

Nice pictures, though I would still appreciate it if someone put up some video of the games for it as soon as it would be convenient for them to do so. Have a nice day.

The pictures are of a non-functional unit, you'll be waiting a while.

[AtariNerd]

Hahah. I think some people are getting a little excited, as well they should (I know I am geeking out) , but as has been stated without hesitation before and bears repeating, this doesn't change the nature of the beast, it "just" incorporates a few favored existing features already in use (reason enough to own this and justify what doesn't need justification ... you're saving potentially thousands of POKEY chips, alone.) by the home-brew community , frees up a few resources slightly (not sure how much the CPU and Maria can work freely. Maria still has to halt the 6502 to do it's work, but apparently more potential cycles have been freed due to how memory is addressed by the new mappers. A simple scroll blitter effect can be achieved (as Mr. Ball has discussed and teased us with. MMC1 equivalent...+ ?) , which for our little silicon friend is a boon, opening up many new avenues on it's own, but so far nothing else has been revealed (hey, it's early, yet, they are still finalizing the design) and expands the memory so that the skills of the programmer can better be utilized, enabling workarounds by the clever. We just have a few very modest gods and goddesses amongst us, here. It doesn't suddenly make it a multi-processor beast, just a more effective platform for the existing talent and potentially a more graceful way for new talent to acquaint itself.

 

OK, you can continue with the flailing.

[maiki]

OK, I understand this project is about "trying to make those things happen at last" since otherwise what is the point of such a module? True 7800 coders (not me of course) will stick to basic machine and will continue to uncover hidden performance over there. Did 128k RAM improve ZX Spectrum games? Since the basic video chip ULA was not changed, the difference was hardly noticable. They just used extra RAM to store a bunch of images and musical data... but can't also the 16k Spectrum stream the data from user port? Of course it can...

Edited August 22, 2010 by maiki

[GroovyBee]

OK, I understand this project is about "trying to make those things happen at last" since otherwise what is the point of such a module? True 7800 coders (not me of course) will stick to basic machine and will continue to uncover hidden performance over there. Did 128k RAM improve ZX Spectrum games? Since the basic video chip ULA was not changed, the difference was hardly noticable. They just used extra RAM to store a bunch of images and musical data... but can't also the 16k Spectrum stream the data from user port? Of course it can...

 

I'm not sure what point(s) you are trying to make. The 7800 is nothing like the ZX Spectrum in terms of how the display is generated. Although the 7800 can be made to have a full screen linear video frame buffer if enough external RAM is present (the RAM must be on cart/expansion module).

 

True coders will not just stick to the basic machine. They will use whatever they need to make the games that they want to make. I don't think there is anything hidden in the 7800 chip set that will get you more performance. The video chip MARIA and its display list format are well documented. The only things left are programming tricks. I suggest that you look at the 7800's 169 colour mode 160C and also the G2F tech demos I worked on earlier in the year.

 

The expansion module will allow much more diverse and innovative games utilising the extra RAM and NES like mappers, support larger levels, have improved multi-channel sound and offer non-volatile high score saving.

[Madaracs]

OK, I understand this project is about "trying to make those things happen at last" since otherwise what is the point of such a module? True 7800 coders (not me of course) will stick to basic machine and will continue to uncover hidden performance over there. Did 128k RAM improve ZX Spectrum games? Since the basic video chip ULA was not changed, the difference was hardly noticable. They just used extra RAM to store a bunch of images and musical data... but can't also the 16k Spectrum stream the data from user port? Of course it can...

 

Why does one climb a mountain?

 

Philosophically, it really doesn't matter why he's making it... only that he's making it. *shrug* Coders can still do what they want.

[Underball]

OK, I understand this project is about "trying to make those things happen at last" since otherwise what is the point of such a module? True 7800 coders (not me of course) will stick to basic machine and will continue to uncover hidden performance over there. Did 128k RAM improve ZX Spectrum games? Since the basic video chip ULA was not changed, the difference was hardly noticable. They just used extra RAM to store a bunch of images and musical data... but can't also the 16k Spectrum stream the data from user port? Of course it can...

 

I'm not sure what point(s) you are trying to make. The 7800 is nothing like the ZX Spectrum in terms of how the display is generated. Although the 7800 can be made to have a full screen linear video frame buffer if enough external RAM is present (the RAM must be on cart/expansion module).

 

True coders will not just stick to the basic machine. They will use whatever they need to make the games that they want to make. I don't think there is anything hidden in the 7800 chip set that will get you more performance. The video chip MARIA and its display list format are well documented. The only things left are programming tricks. I suggest that you look at the 7800's 169 colour mode 160C and also the G2F tech demos I worked on earlier in the year.

 

The expansion module will allow much more diverse and innovative games utilising the extra RAM and NES like mappers, support larger levels, have improved multi-channel sound and offer non-volatile high score saving.

 

I think what he was trying to say (albeit confusingly) is that graphically, the XM won't make a huge noticeable change from what the stock 7800 hardware can put out, since ultimately the graphics need to go through MARIA anyway. The games will potentially be more involved, longer, with more levels, characters, sprites, larger maps/screens, etc. But the basic graphics won't be that much of a noted difference. It's not like it will become capable of graphical output of say, the SNES or Sega Genesis with this unit.

 

Sound will be huge improvement, but that really only pertains to people who pay attention to the sound in the first place. Most gamers notice GRAPHICS first, sound second, if at all. They don't put sound clips on game boxes, after all. They put screenshots. This is what your average gamer looks for.

 

And although it may sound like nitpicking, most casual gamers won't really notice the difference, except maybe in the length of the games. Coders, and people involved in designing games will, obviously. But regular old players might not.

 

 

I'm still excited about the potential for this device. But it's really so far away in the development from showing what it's capable of - we'll just have to wait.

 

Maybe this sounds like more asking/begging - but I think Curt's list of confirmed buyers for this device would grow tenfold if people had some kind of idea what it was capable of. A Youtube video of it's capabilities in action when one of these games is at a decent stage of WIP, perhaps?

 

Atari never sold any devices without advertising and commercials.

[GroovyBee]

I think what he was trying to say (albeit confusingly) is that graphically, the XM won't make a huge noticeable change from what the stock 7800 hardware can put out, since ultimately the graphics need to go through MARIA anyway.

 

Nope! I don't agree. The hardware scroll assist NES like mapper in combination with the extra RAM will allow much more colourful games by moving CPU intensive stuff into hardware. Thus making it easier for the programmer to get the graphical effects they want.

 

The games will potentially be more involved, longer, with more levels, characters, sprites, larger maps/screens, etc. But the basic graphics won't be that much of a noted difference. It's not like it will become capable of graphical output of say, the SNES or Sega Genesis with this unit.

 

169 colour screens can be used more freely and at full screen width which will be immediately noticeable. However there will be no increases in colour depth or resolution just programming tricks to make things go further.

 

Sound will be huge improvement, but that really only pertains to people who pay attention to the sound in the first place. Most gamers notice GRAPHICS first, sound second, if at all. They don't put sound clips on game boxes, after all. They put screenshots. This is what your average gamer looks for.

 

Agreed. Music and sound effects will be boosted enormously.

 

And although it may sound like nitpicking, most casual gamers won't really notice the difference, except maybe in the length of the games. Coders, and people involved in designing games will, obviously. But regular old players might not.

 

I disagree. In the case of my games you will know that its an expansion module game.

 

I'm still excited about the potential for this device. But it's really so far away in the development from showing what it's capable of - we'll just have to wait.

 

Coming from somebody not on the development team you can't say where the project is at .

 

Maybe this sounds like more asking/begging - but I think Curt's list of confirmed buyers for this device would grow tenfold if people had some kind of idea what it was capable of. A Youtube video of it's capabilities in action when one of these games is at a decent stage of WIP, perhaps?

 

It is more asking/begging. You can see what the expansion module is capable of, just look at Dungeon! Anything beyond that you'll just have to wait.

[Underball]

I think what he was trying to say (albeit confusingly) is that graphically, the XM won't make a huge noticeable change from what the stock 7800 hardware can put out, since ultimately the graphics need to go through MARIA anyway.

 

Nope! I don't agree. The hardware scroll assist NES like mapper in combination with the extra RAM will allow much more colourful games by moving CPU intensive stuff into hardware. Thus making it easier for the programmer to get the graphical effects they want.

 

The games will potentially be more involved, longer, with more levels, characters, sprites, larger maps/screens, etc. But the basic graphics won't be that much of a noted difference. It's not like it will become capable of graphical output of say, the SNES or Sega Genesis with this unit.

 

169 colour screens can be used more freely and at full screen width which will be immediately noticeable. However there will be no increases in colour depth or resolution just programming tricks to make things go further.

 

Sound will be huge improvement, but that really only pertains to people who pay attention to the sound in the first place. Most gamers notice GRAPHICS first, sound second, if at all. They don't put sound clips on game boxes, after all. They put screenshots. This is what your average gamer looks for.

 

Agreed. Music and sound effects will be boosted enormously.

 

And although it may sound like nitpicking, most casual gamers won't really notice the difference, except maybe in the length of the games. Coders, and people involved in designing games will, obviously. But regular old players might not.

 

I disagree. In the case of my games you will know that its an expansion module game.

 

I'm still excited about the potential for this device. But it's really so far away in the development from showing what it's capable of - we'll just have to wait.

 

Coming from somebody not on the development team you can't say where the project is at .

 

Maybe this sounds like more asking/begging - but I think Curt's list of confirmed buyers for this device would grow tenfold if people had some kind of idea what it was capable of. A Youtube video of it's capabilities in action when one of these games is at a decent stage of WIP, perhaps?

 

It is more asking/begging. You can see what the expansion module is capable of, just look at Dungeon! Anything beyond that you'll just have to wait.

Nobody besides the dev team knows how far along this project is, development wise. Curt has been the only one forthcoming with it's development.

 

If the idea in helping Curt realize the final product demand is to get more people to commit and put a down payment to offset production costs, one would think giving people a reasonable expectation of what they are buying into wouldn't be out of the question. Not everyone can read a technical spec sheet and immediately understand what games might be capable of from that.

 

Those 4 screenshots of Dungeon, a game you admit isn't even taking advantage of the XM hardware, and is currently running on standard 7800 hardware, isn't that.

[GroovyBee]

Nobody besides the dev team knows how far along this project is, development wise. Curt has been the only one forthcoming with it's development.

 

That's only natural because he is the team leader.

 

If the idea in helping Curt realize the final product demand is to get more people to commit and put a down payment to offset production costs, one would think giving people a reasonable expectation of what they are buying into wouldn't be out of the question. Not everyone can read a technical spec sheet and immediately understand what games might be capable of from that.

 

Who knows what Expansion Module games will be created after its release? Its up to the scene's homebrewers to take the Expansion Module games to new heights. It has been mentioned numerous times already that developers will announce when they are ready to announce. You whining, begging and asking won't change that. I suggest that you get to grips with 6502 coding and create the games you want to create in the time frame you want to create them in instead of complaining about developers doing their own thing. Maybe then you'll actually appreciate the time and effort that goes into making a game.

 

Those 4 screenshots of Dungeon, a game you admit isn't even taking advantage of the XM hardware, and is currently running on standard 7800 hardware, isn't that.

 

The game is not taking advantage of the Expansion Module hardware at the moment because it was for demonstration at CGE2010. Unfortunately the expansion module hardware wasn't ready for the show but it's plastics were. The fact that the game could be run run from a CC2 on a stock machine was the next best alternative for any live demonstration purposes. However, after the theft of one of my other game demo carts I'm very glad that no CC2s were available at the show to play the game on.

[GaryH917]

Do not be desirous of having things done quickly. Do not look at small advantages. Desire to have things done quickly prevents their being done thoroughly. Looking at small advantages prevents great affairs from being accomplished. -- Confucius

[AtariNerd]

I don't have an indept view of the process, but having read from various developers' trials in bringing their games to the system, I know it's already using most of the available memory, just to be able to display those overlayed, multi-palleted screens, which are sucking quite a few cycles in themselves. Throw in software scrolling and tiling effects and you're working in a very tight window for a game kernal. It's only because one can off-lay some of those memory-hogging and cycle intensive processes to the expansion that any chance of really workable game is going to come out of this. Even Groovy here is going to be challenged.

Edited August 23, 2010 by AtariNerd

[GroovyBee]

Even Groovy here is going to be challenged.

 

I pretty much have a good idea on how to solve the outstanding problems in the game. Finding the time to code them however, is another matter .

[PAC-MAN PRIME]

One way the Module can be theoretically previewed right now is by trying the POKEY enhanced version of Pac-Man Collection via dl'ing the A78 file in the other thread in this forum. The improved sounds make worlds of a difference.

 

 

Regarding the unit itself, will the casing plastic have the same texturing to match the 7800, or will it be smooth and glossy? I can't quite tell by the photo.

[GroovyBee]

One way the Module can be theoretically previewed right now is by trying the POKEY enhanced version of Pac-Man Collection via dl'ing the A78 file in the other thread in this forum. The improved sounds make worlds of a difference.

 

Or try Commando or Beef Drop for POKEY sound. You don't want to play Ballblazer in the current ProSystem emulator because the fractal music doesn't work correctly.