Gemeni Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 So any chance of their being a/v outputs on the expansion?It would get rid of the hassle of having to mod the 7800! Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/165886-7800-piggyback-expansion-module-comes-to-life/page/4/#findComment-2051944 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybird3rd Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 So any chance of their being a/v outputs on the expansion?It would get rid of the hassle of having to mod the 7800! Nope. The Expansion Module is a cartridge port device, and the cartridge port doesn't have the necessary signals for A/V output. Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/165886-7800-piggyback-expansion-module-comes-to-life/page/4/#findComment-2051948 Share on other sites More sharing options...
doppel Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 (edited) I would have been satisfied with a piggyback POKEY expansion module that allows homebrew developers to add POKEY sound without harvesting old POKEY chips. But this...man, this is totally out of left field. It's almost as if I went back in time to an alternate past where Atari actually came through for us! (re: the 7800 I mean) :-) Edited July 16, 2010 by doppel 2 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/165886-7800-piggyback-expansion-module-comes-to-life/page/4/#findComment-2052031 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DracIsBack Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 Just get a jaguar. Have one! Next ... Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/165886-7800-piggyback-expansion-module-comes-to-life/page/4/#findComment-2052042 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DracIsBack Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 So any chance of their being a/v outputs on the expansion?It would get rid of the hassle of having to mod the 7800! Nope. The Expansion Module is a cartridge port device, and the cartridge port doesn't have the necessary signals for A/V output. Too bad! That's one problem that remains. Choices are either: - Crack open your 7800 and add the ports, which not everyone is comfortable with. I've seen a few posts from those that are and it comes across to me as "just connect the cosmotron to the flux capacitor and route it through the warp drive". I have visions of quickly frying my machine trying to add those ports. - Get someone else to do it. This usually involves packing up your system, paying a bunch of money, waiting a while and always worrying whether the person on the other end can be trusted to return your system and/or not wreck it. An output that just 'plugged in' would be ideal ... even if it's not actually feasible technically. 1 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/165886-7800-piggyback-expansion-module-comes-to-life/page/4/#findComment-2052046 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayhem Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 I suppose there's one question... the device will work fine with both NTSC and PAL 7800s? We wouldn't need a separate one for each, correct? Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/165886-7800-piggyback-expansion-module-comes-to-life/page/4/#findComment-2052078 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GroovyBee Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 I suppose there's one question... the device will work fine with both NTSC and PAL 7800s? We wouldn't need a separate one for each, correct? Don't forget that one of the team lives in PAL land. From a technical point of view it should be fine on both. There's nothing in the hardware that needs to be different. The only problem might be with the junk at the bottom of the screen when you use the HSC. I've seen PAL versions of some of the back catalogue HSC enabled games crash when they try and use it. I haven't looked at why they do but there will be a player controlled way to stop the HSC part being enabled. Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/165886-7800-piggyback-expansion-module-comes-to-life/page/4/#findComment-2052089 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underball Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 So any chance of their being a/v outputs on the expansion?It would get rid of the hassle of having to mod the 7800! Nope. The Expansion Module is a cartridge port device, and the cartridge port doesn't have the necessary signals for A/V output. Too bad! That's one problem that remains. Choices are either: - Crack open your 7800 and add the ports, which not everyone is comfortable with. I've seen a few posts from those that are and it comes across to me as "just connect the cosmotron to the flux capacitor and route it through the warp drive". I have visions of quickly frying my machine trying to add those ports. - Get someone else to do it. This usually involves packing up your system, paying a bunch of money, waiting a while and always worrying whether the person on the other end can be trusted to return your system and/or not wreck it. An output that just 'plugged in' would be ideal ... even if it's not actually feasible technically. It's not. That's why the need for hardware mods to add standard A/V output exists. But really, the "easier 7800 A/V mod" is about as simple as it can get, modding-wise. It's only like 5 or 6 easily obtainable components (a few resistors of common rating, a common transistor, and a capacitor - all of which can be bought at Radio Shack for around $6), and takes all of 15 minutes to assemble, solder together, and connect to the motherboard. Honestly, it takes more time opening the case and trying to get the metal shielding off the mainboard than it does putting that mod together. Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/165886-7800-piggyback-expansion-module-comes-to-life/page/4/#findComment-2052112 Share on other sites More sharing options...
108 Stars Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 This device should be mushroom-shaped. Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/165886-7800-piggyback-expansion-module-comes-to-life/page/4/#findComment-2052113 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybird3rd Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 This device should be mushroom-shaped. ... or shaped like a space-age toilet bowl. Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/165886-7800-piggyback-expansion-module-comes-to-life/page/4/#findComment-2052117 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nathanallan Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 This device should be mushroom-shaped. ... or shaped like a space-age toilet bowl. I still want one or (if at all possible) a clone that will work in its place. Even if it does look like that... Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/165886-7800-piggyback-expansion-module-comes-to-life/page/4/#findComment-2052314 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lendorien Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 Since everyone is asking, is it possible to get a full features list? Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/165886-7800-piggyback-expansion-module-comes-to-life/page/4/#findComment-2052504 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atari2600Lives Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 (edited) Very cool Curt! Edited July 17, 2010 by Atari2600Lives Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/165886-7800-piggyback-expansion-module-comes-to-life/page/4/#findComment-2052524 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GroovyBee Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 Since everyone is asking, is it possible to get a full features list? The main features are listed in the AA front page article. Some finer details are still being worked on. Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/165886-7800-piggyback-expansion-module-comes-to-life/page/4/#findComment-2052616 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaDDuck Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 Since everyone is asking, is it possible to get a full features list? The main features are listed in the AA front page article. Some finer details are still being worked on. wow, just wow.... Set your faces on STUNED!! I am very excited about this!!! Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/165886-7800-piggyback-expansion-module-comes-to-life/page/4/#findComment-2052619 Share on other sites More sharing options...
+swlovinist Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 When will preorders be accepted/taken? What an amazing project and best of luck. I love seeing programmers work together to make something wonderful. Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/165886-7800-piggyback-expansion-module-comes-to-life/page/4/#findComment-2052685 Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomickneedrop Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 wow. brings a tear to the eye. count me in whenever this happens! Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/165886-7800-piggyback-expansion-module-comes-to-life/page/4/#findComment-2052723 Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercylon Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 This looks really cool. I don't have my 7800 anymore, but maybe I should rediscover it. Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/165886-7800-piggyback-expansion-module-comes-to-life/page/4/#findComment-2052769 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 Products like this, no matter how technically impressive, entirely miss the point of coding on classic consoles. Part and parcel of coding on antique hardware is that it's technologically limited, so you suck it up and deal with it. The challenge is the entire point. If you don't want to deal with it, then why are you bothering? Go write Flash games instead. And from a gamer's perspective-- Once you slap on this module, it's no longer an Atari 7800. It's a... I dunno... Curtari Vendelsystem. I have fond nostalgic memories of the Atari 7800, which is why homebrews for it still interest me. The Vendelsystem, on the other hand, I couldn't possibly care less about. If I want a version of Donkey Kong with better sound, I'll just fire up MAME. Ultimately, it all makes about as much sense as going to a Civil War reenactment and handing out AK-47s. This isn't even addressing the installed base problem. The 7800 fan base is already pretty damn small. Fracturing it even further seems foolish at best. Even when major console manufacturers have attempted to introduce expansion modules, it's never been particularly successful. I agree, for the most part. It's reminiscent of the Sega Genesis 32X, in that you're more or less bolting another system onto an existing one. Also, I have to say that I wish the price was a little lower. Something like this would be highly tempting at the $30-$50 mark, but at $79-$99 it's harder to justify, especially considering that I only paid $79.99 for my 7800 back in 1987. I'm curious how games for the "expanded" system would be utilizing the hardware, both the 7800's original hardware and the improvements offered by this module. The best scenario that I can think of would be to have "enhanced" 7800 cartridges that could still be played on a stock 7800, but show off noticeably improved graphics and sound when played on a 7800 with the expansion module. Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/165886-7800-piggyback-expansion-module-comes-to-life/page/4/#findComment-2052958 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Laird Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 I think some of you are missing teh point totally here. There are 7800 games that use pokey chips, 7800 games that use ram on the board and the original 7800 had the expansion port. The expansion module means you don't need to add extra ram or pokey chips to cartridges (which has been done with both commercial and homebrew games anyway) This will bring down the cost of making some games and means that we won't have to wreck anymore Ballblazer or Commando carts. 1 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/165886-7800-piggyback-expansion-module-comes-to-life/page/4/#findComment-2052973 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underball Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 Does that mean the average cost of carts in the Atariage store will go down since they will be cheaper to make? Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/165886-7800-piggyback-expansion-module-comes-to-life/page/4/#findComment-2052975 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybird3rd Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 Does that mean the average cost of carts in the Atariage store will go down since they will be cheaper to make? Not necessarily. Right now, if you want to publish a game that uses POKEY or extra RAM, you have to recycle an old cartridge that already has one or the other (none of them had both), and retrofit the board inside with a new ROM. This is cheaper than having new boards and shells made, but it's also very labor-intensive, and the supply and the quality of donor cartridges is not always constant. With the POKEY and RAM in the Expansion Module, you won't have to source those parts for your cartridge, and you'll be able to use new ROM-only boards. This will make cartridges easier to build, but you'll have to have those boards manufactured, and you still need to get cartridge shells. Besides, I'm fairly certain that the hardware cost is only a small percentage of the cost of the completed cartridges in the AtariAge store. A lot of that cost is also printed packaging and labels, not to mention labor costs and royalties to the programmers. Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/165886-7800-piggyback-expansion-module-comes-to-life/page/4/#findComment-2052981 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DracIsBack Posted July 18, 2010 Share Posted July 18, 2010 I agree, for the most part. It's reminiscent of the Sega Genesis 32X, in that you're more or less bolting another system onto an existing one. No, not at all. The 32X added dual processors and new graphics hardware to support it. This is akin to taking additional memory used in carts like JINKS and TOWER TOPPLER, sound chips were used in BALLBLAZER and COMMANDO and putting them onto one module instead of multiple carts. Throw in 7800 equivalents of the mappers that the NES had in some of its carts and you get the idea. But instead of dealing with multiple carts (some of which are getting scarcer to pillage), one module. Also, I have to say that I wish the price was a little lower. Something like this would be highly tempting at the $30-$50 mark, but at $79-$99 it's harder to justify, especially considering that I only paid $79.99 for my 7800 back in 1987. Adjusted for inflation, your $79.99 purchase would be about $149.08 in 2008, adjusted for inflation! And like-wise, a $79 module in 2009, would be about $42.00 in 1987! http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi 2 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/165886-7800-piggyback-expansion-module-comes-to-life/page/4/#findComment-2053010 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GroovyBee Posted July 18, 2010 Share Posted July 18, 2010 Also, I have to say that I wish the price was a little lower. Something like this would be highly tempting at the $30-$50 mark, but at $79-$99 it's harder to justify, especially considering that I only paid $79.99 for my 7800 back in 1987. Its not 1987 any more! I don't think you appreciate the upfront costs. Its not cheap having a custom injection mold made for the outer case. Plus you have to factor in the size of the market. If this were a market with potential sales in the thousands it could be sold at a lower price. However, I suspect it will be sold in the low hundreds over its lifetime. I'm curious how games for the "expanded" system would be utilizing the hardware, both the 7800's original hardware and the improvements offered by this module. The best scenario that I can think of would be to have "enhanced" 7800 cartridges that could still be played on a stock 7800, but show off noticeably improved graphics and sound when played on a 7800 with the expansion module. As a developer I won't be creating "light" versions of my games targeted at the expansion module. If you want the full game experience you'll have to buy the game and the expansion module. 3 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/165886-7800-piggyback-expansion-module-comes-to-life/page/4/#findComment-2053013 Share on other sites More sharing options...
boog Posted July 18, 2010 Share Posted July 18, 2010 So, I'm trying to figure out what benefits I'd gain from this expansion module... The high score cart capability seems like the only immediate benefit, right? But it looks like there were only nine retail 7800 games with HSC capability: Asteroids, Centipede, Dig Dug, Food Fight, Galaga, Joust, Ms Pac-Man, Robotron 2084, Xevious Is this list correct? I also saw that Beef Drop and Pac-Man Collection support the HSC... are there any other homebrews that save high scores? Are the added memory, pokey chip, and other expansions only there for potential developer use? Would any of the current 7800 carts/homebrews take advantage of these features, or only future homebrews that are written (or re-written) specifically to use the expansion module? Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/165886-7800-piggyback-expansion-module-comes-to-life/page/4/#findComment-2053035 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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