Replacement controller ideas

[GroovyBee]

Starting with the post here in my 1st Inty homebrew thread the subject of replacement controllers has come up.

 

I'm suggesting a jagpad for the keypad and a PSX controller for the analogue sticks. Al is suggesting common Inty buttons on the PSX controller with a pass through for the original controller. Does anybody else have any suggestions?

[Akito01]

Starting with the post here in my 1st Inty homebrew thread the subject of replacement controllers has come up.

 

I'm suggesting a jagpad for the keypad and a PSX controller for the analogue sticks. Al is suggesting common Inty buttons on the PSX controller with a pass through for the original controller. Does anybody else have any suggestions?

 

This is something that has been on my mind as well. I recently got a Genesis controller extension cable to use with my Intellivision II, which required a small amount of work with an exacto knife to get to fit into the controller port on the console, but is totally worth it for the extra length to sit back from the TV. This lead me to the obvious question; would a Genesis controller work at all? Turns out, no. So, the question for someone as ignorant as myself is -why can I use a Genesis pad on my Atari 2600, but not my Intellivision II?

 

I've looked at the page that shows how to make an adapter for an Atari Jaguar pad to use on the Intellivision, but it is baffling and the directions not clear enough for me to understand. Perhaps, despite the fact that the Jag pad would be ideal, it simply isn't suited for a novice hack. Maybe for those action games that we'd most like to use a standard action pad, it isn't as important to find a keypad solution. Which brings me back to the Genesis pad. Do we know why, specifically, the Genesis pad gives no response at all in an Intellivision, and would it be a simpler project to get an adapter working compared to the Jag pad?

[jaybird3rd]

I've been considering a similar project for the Aquarius (which uses very similar controllers to the Intellivision), and as I see it, there are at least three design issues to overcome.

 

The first has to do with signal conversion and finding a suitable power source. The Intellivision's controllers are connected to the parallel ports on the sound chip (the AY-3-8914), so they're eight TTL I/O pins and a ground pin. Connecting other controllers--such as Atari joysticks--would require an encoder or a microcontroller of some kind to generate the correct signals; it would need to be more than a simple adapter. But, because the Intellivision controller ports don't provide any power pins (like the Atari joystick ports do), the converter would also require an external power source, either a battery or an AC adapter. These aren't insurmountable requirements, but they might make the converter more expensive.

 

The second is the issue of choosing a reasonable form factor. For the Intellivision I, there's no choice but to open the console and install it internally (the Intellivision I controllers are plugged into a pair of pin headers in opposite corners of the motherboard). With the Intellivision II, you can plug it into the hand controller ports, but it might be tough to come up with a convenient design (especially for both controllers at once) because the ports are seated deep into the hand controller cavities:

 

 

The third is the issue of finding a controller that would be an adequate replacement for the originals. As Albert pointed out, the Intellivision hand controllers offer several features (a sixteen-direction disc, an integrated keypad, multiple action buttons, an overlay system, etc) that the original games require, and it's hard to think of a single alternative controller that would offer them all. You'd either need a mix of controllers to cover all of the possible inputs, or the converter could have a "passthrough" feature so you can still use the hand controllers for games that wouldn't work with a standard joystick. I'm not sure how much of an improvement multiple controllers would be; maybe some people wouldn't mind, but to me it seems like too much trouble.

 

I suppose one important decision would be whether to design the converter to support the legacy Intellivision games, or only new homebrew games. The latter option would give you a lot more freedom, and I suppose the old games that would work with other controllers could be "patched" to use the converter. If I was to do it, I would probably design it for the extra controller ports in the ECS Computer Adaptor:

 

 

I know that not everyone has a Computer Adaptor, but I suspect that most hardcore Intellivision enthusiasts probably do. This would offer several advantages: the ports would certainly be a lot easier to reach, they wouldn't interfere with the original controllers at all, and you wouldn't need to mess with internal upgrades because the Computer Adaptor can plug in to all Intellivision models. Besides, it would be nice to get more use out of the Computer Adaptor, and this would be a perfect accessory for it.

[intvnut]

Starting with the post here in my 1st Inty homebrew thread the subject of replacement controllers has come up.

 

I'm suggesting a jagpad for the keypad and a PSX controller for the analogue sticks. Al is suggesting common Inty buttons on the PSX controller with a pass through for the original controller. Does anybody else have any suggestions?

 

 

Well, before we get too far in... to answer Al's question: The Inty 1 controllers are easily detachable, no soldering required. There's a 9 pin single-row header on the mainboard for each of the two controllers. No soldering required. only complication is that they're on opposite sides of the mainboard. The below photo shows the two connectors. (I've desoldered the RF shield on this board, but that's not necessary to gain access to the connectors. I also put a bright piece of paper under each to highlight them in the photo.)

 

 

Unless I'm gravely mistaken, the pinout for these is identical to the Inty 2 and Sears units, despite the fact the latter use 9-pin D-sub connectors. Pin 1 on the header is pin 1 on the D-sub, and pin 9 on the header is pin 9 on the D-sub.

 

And now for an actual functional suggestion: Regardless of what controller you select for input, I can think of one killer feature for the output. Allow a single input controller to drive outputs to both of the Intellivision's controller inputs.

 

A handful of Intellivision games use the action buttons, disc and keypad simultaneously. Unfortunately, due to how the Intellivision controller is designed, it can either resolve a single keypad input, or resolve a single action button plus disc direction input. If you try to press the keypad while either an action button or the disc is pressed, you'll meet with disappointment since the two input sets alias.

 

Many of these are one-player games, and will accept input from either controller at any time. So, if you send the keypad inputs to the left controller and the disc/action inputs to the right controller (or vice versa), then you can send both types of inputs at the same time. This makes games like Night Stalker and Tron Deadly Discs much more playable. Imagine binding a hat (or one of the analog sticks) to the keypad to control shooting (Night Stalker) or throwing the disc (Tron Deadly Discs) while the D-pad controls running? Even games like Astrosmash benefit, since hyperspace is on the keypad.

 

A second input (perhaps made obvious by the first) is that you probably need some mechanism for selecting from a set of different bindings based on the game. Some games, such as the Activision games, will only look at one controller in a single-player game. They'll let you start the game from either controller, but whatever game you started it with is the only one it'll look at the rest of the game. Beamrider and River Raid come to mind here. I can't remember if other Activision titles do this or if any of the Imagic titles do.

 

The output side of whatever adaptor you make should be pretty easy. The Intellivision controllers are not matrix scanned or anything remotely fancy. They're just a set of pull-to-ground switches that float high. A standard open-drain/open-collector I/O port on the simplest of microcontrollers should have no problem driving these TTL-compatible inputs with static values.

 

The controller wiring is also simple:

 

• Lower right action button pulls down bits 7, 6
  
• Lower left action button pulls down bits 6 and 5
  
• Either top action button pull down bits 7 and 5 (both are wired identically)
  
• Leftmost column keypad keys pull down bit 7
  
• Middle column keypad keys pull down bit 6
  
• Rightmost column keypad keys pull down bit 5
  
• Row 0 (top row) keypad keys pull down bit 0
  
• Row 1 keypad keys pull down bit 1
  
• Row 2 keypad keys pull down bit 2
  
• Row 3 keypad keys pull down bit 3
  
• The disc is uses a simple Gray-code-inspired encoding for its 16-position input, as shown in the diagram below. There's a 1-bit difference between adjacent positions as you rotate around the 16 directions, and D/R/U/L is directly encoded on the four LSBs.
  

 

 

And as always, I'm happy to answer any other tech questions.

 

Oh, and do you have any thoughts about the ECS Keyboard or the Synthesizer Keyboard? Those are also pretty easy to work with.

[intvnut]

I know that not everyone has a Computer Adaptor, but I suspect that most hardcore Intellivision enthusiasts probably do. This would offer several advantages: the ports would certainly be a lot easier to reach, they wouldn't interfere with the original controllers at all, and you wouldn't need to mess with internal upgrades because the Computer Adaptor can plug in to all Intellivision models. Besides, it would be nice to get more use out of the Computer Adaptor, and this would be a perfect accessory for it.

 

As someone who has interfaced to these ports before, let me tell you that they're equally hard to get to on the Intellivision 2 and the ECS. Both are recessed equally. In fact, the ECS is designed to take Intellivision 2 controllers as inputs, and I believe at least one title (one of the Soccer titles done in France) will supposedly support a 4 player mode if it detects an ECS.

 

I believe Mattel designed these connectors to be super-recessed on purpose, so that people didn't plug their Atari controllers into them.

 

When I did my "ECScable" experiment (ECS to PC printer port data cable), I had to take the top off of my ECS so that the connectors would reach.

[jaybird3rd]

As someone who has interfaced to these ports before, let me tell you that they're equally hard to get to on the Intellivision 2 and the ECS. Both are recessed equally. In fact, the ECS is designed to take Intellivision 2 controllers as inputs, and I believe at least one title (one of the Soccer titles done in France) will supposedly support a 4 player mode if it detects an ECS.

 

I believe Mattel designed these connectors to be super-recessed on purpose, so that people didn't plug their Atari controllers into them.

 

When I did my "ECScable" experiment (ECS to PC printer port data cable), I had to take the top off of my ECS so that the connectors would reach.

I was referring more to the fact that the ECS ports don't have a "wall" of plastic between them, so you could use adjacent connectors on a circuit board to plug into it. But yes, the ports are recessed a little too deep beneath the surface for standard vertical DB9 female connectors, so you'd probably need an extender of some kind.

 

The DB9 connectors that were used for the Atari MemCard/SaveKey might do the job; I'd post a picture if I had one handy, but as I recall they were a bit thinner than standard connectors. They might have been regular DB9 solder-cup connectors with the metal housing removed, come to think of it.

[intvnut]

When I did my "ECScable" experiment (ECS to PC printer port data cable), I had to take the top off of my ECS so that the connectors would reach.

I was referring more to the fact that the ECS ports don't have a "wall" of plastic between them, so you could use adjacent connectors on a circuit board to plug into it.

 

Ah, ok, understood.

 

But yes, the ports are recessed a little too deep beneath the surface for standard vertical DB9 female connectors, so you'd probably need an extender of some kind.

 

I think hex65000 had it easy by comparison.

[jaybird3rd]

But yes, the ports are recessed a little too deep beneath the surface for standard vertical DB9 female connectors, so you'd probably need an extender of some kind.

I think hex65000 had it easy by comparison.

This is where the Aquarius has an advantage over the Intellivision: it uses the AY-3-8910 for its controllers also, but the ports are flush with the outer surface of the Mini-Expander.

[intvnut]

One other interesting thought: The Intellivoice has an expansion bus hidden under the Mattel Electronics nameplate on the top. (Unfortunately, the connector is rarely populated on these, but the bus is there and intact.)

 

This expansion bus is a simple 8-bit data bus and it specifically passes through requests for $1FE and $1FF, the controller ports, to allow you to inject controller inputs there. It did this to support the "wireless controller" project that was in development at the time the Intellivoice was also in development.

 

This port provides a chip select, a few bits of address and has a bidirectional data bus. I have the details around somewhere, if you think this is an interesting avenue for expansion. It has the plus side of providing +5 and GND and not requiring you to open your Intellivision 1 or find connectors that will reach into an Intellivision 2. It has the downside of a slightly more complex interface, and the fact that most Intellivoice units will need a little bit of soldering to install a connector. It also requires the user to already own an Intellivoice that they'd be willing to mod.

[intvnut]

But yes, the ports are recessed a little too deep beneath the surface for standard vertical DB9 female connectors, so you'd probably need an extender of some kind.

I think hex65000 had it easy by comparison.

This is where the Aquarius has an advantage over the Intellivision: it uses the AY-3-8910 for its controllers also, but the ports are flush with the outer surface of the Mini-Expander.

 

I'm guessing the System Changer is the reason they did this on the Inty 2. Don't want kids mixing up the controllers within a system, so only make them fit one way.

 

The Sears controllersm, in contrast, have a more typical Atari-like 9-pin D-sub profile, but the same pinout as the Inty 2.

[GroovyBee]

This expansion bus is a simple 8-bit data bus and it specifically passes through requests for $1FE and $1FF, the controller ports, to allow you to inject controller inputs there. It did this to support the "wireless controller" project that was in development at the time the Intellivoice was also in development.

 

How about an joystick adapter cart that has a pass through to allow normal carts to be plugged in whilst providing a connector to the new stick interface? Then you don't have to modify your Inty or the Intellivoice. I'm not sure about the availability of Inty compatible edge connectors tho .

[jaybird3rd]

One other interesting thought: The Intellivoice has an expansion bus hidden under the Mattel Electronics nameplate on the top. (Unfortunately, the connector is rarely populated on these, but the bus is there and intact.)

 

This expansion bus is a simple 8-bit data bus and it specifically passes through requests for $1FE and $1FF, the controller ports, to allow you to inject controller inputs there. It did this to support the "wireless controller" project that was in development at the time the Intellivoice was also in development.

 

This port provides a chip select, a few bits of address and has a bidirectional data bus. I have the details around somewhere, if you think this is an interesting avenue for expansion. It has the plus side of providing +5 and GND and not requiring you to open your Intellivision 1 or find connectors that will reach into an Intellivision 2. It has the downside of a slightly more complex interface, and the fact that most Intellivoice units will need a little bit of soldering to install a connector. It also requires the user to already own an Intellivoice that they'd be willing to mod.

That's an interesting idea. I've seen the expansion bus under the nameplate but I didn't know what signals it provided. In case anyone hasn't seen it, here's a picture of my Intellivoice, which has a populated bus:

 

 

If an adapter could be designed for this, one could potentially offer pre-modified Intellivoice units, with the adapter already installed. Intellivoices are easy enough to come by (Atari2600.com sells them for something like $15 each), and those who already have one could "trade it in" for a discount on the modified one. These trade-ins could then become a source of new Intellivoices, to be modified for other customers.

[+thegoldenband]

Great ideas in this thread. Since a lot of one-player games on the Intellivision do listen to both controllers, let me note that for many games, a Sega Genesis controller could conceivably offer everything you need, i.e. eight directions and three input buttons. You could start the game with Controller 2, and then go to town, much as people often do with the 5200 (when they've got a VCS controller + adapter plugged in to Port 1).

 

Of course it wouldn't work for games that use all 16 directions or which need keypad input during gameplay, but there are enough games to make it an interesting interim possibility while we wait for a full-fledged replacement. If someone made a relatively inexpensive converter box into which you could plug a Genny controller, I'd definitely jump on it. Is such a thing technically feasible?

 

That said, a full-on replacement complete with 16 directions and keypad would certainly be ideal, and I don't mean to derail that possibility!

Edited September 8, 2010 by thegoldenband

[intvnut]

This expansion bus is a simple 8-bit data bus and it specifically passes through requests for $1FE and $1FF, the controller ports, to allow you to inject controller inputs there. It did this to support the "wireless controller" project that was in development at the time the Intellivoice was also in development.

 

How about an joystick adapter cart that has a pass through to allow normal carts to be plugged in whilst providing a connector to the new stick interface? Then you don't have to modify your Inty or the Intellivoice. I'm not sure about the availability of Inty compatible edge connectors tho .

 

The card edge connectors are (or at least were) widely available. 44-pin 0.1" center. Pretty standard, actually. At least one other obscure system uses the same connector (with a rather different pinout).

 

I didn't have problems finding these before when I bought a bunch awhile back. Right now I seem to be having a hard time finding some to link to, but for such a popular connector size, I'm sure it's just a matter of looking. I picked these up for a little over a buck a piece.

 

Granted, mine were vertical mount, but it allowed me to make my hacking widget:

 

 

 

EDIT: Ok, I found them on Digikey here. Digikey's search function for finding these is rather annoying. I had to drill down manually rather than search for the obvious.

Edited September 9, 2010 by intvnut

[chrisbid]

another oddity with the intellivision is the inability to use both the disc and face buttons at the same time. on games like night stalker and tron deadly discs, this is a huge disadvantage... unless you use two controllers.

 

so your idea of using a psx controller may work (similar to the 7800>psx controller adapter). map the player 1 disc to the left stick, and player 2 keypad to the second stick.

[GroovyBee]

EDIT: Ok, I found them on Digikey here. Digikey's search function for finding these is rather annoying. I had to drill down manually rather than search for the obvious.

 

Thanks for that. I tried a quick search on the usual component suppliers in the UK (Farnell, RS) and neither had any 44 way .1" edge connectors in. I'll have a better look tomorrow.

[jaybird3rd]

another oddity with the intellivision is the inability to use both the disc and face buttons at the same time. on games like night stalker and tron deadly discs, this is a huge disadvantage... unless you use two controllers.

 

so your idea of using a psx controller may work (similar to the 7800>psx controller adapter). map the player 1 disc to the left stick, and player 2 keypad to the second stick.

The way to get around the keypad/disc conflicts is to play the games with both controllers, one in each hand: one to move, the other to shoot. I've heard that this is the way several of the Blue Sky Rangers still prefer to play these games.

[GroovyBee]

so your idea of using a psx controller may work (similar to the 7800>psx controller adapter). map the player 1 disc to the left stick, and player 2 keypad to the second stick.

 

It would be player programmable so you could configure it to whatever buttons you want to use on the PSX interface.

[intvnut]

EDIT: Ok, I found them on Digikey here. Digikey's search function for finding these is rather annoying. I had to drill down manually rather than search for the obvious.

 

Thanks for that. I tried a quick search on the usual component suppliers in the UK (Farnell, RS) and neither had any 44 way .1" edge connectors in. I'll have a better look tomorrow.

 

The AMP part number is 5530843-4. This is sometimes listed as a 22 pin, 2-row connector, other times as 44 pin, 2-row. The inconsistency is annoying. It's apparently also a Multibus-1 connector.

 

I'm pretty sure I drew up an Eagle library component for it too, if you someday need it. :-)

[GroovyBee]

I've heard that this is the way several of the Blue Sky Rangers still prefer to play these games.

 

But they are old and we are young ummmm... younger! Lets do it the modern way .

[GroovyBee]

Does a schematic of the Intellivoice exist?

[intvnut]

Does a schematic of the Intellivoice exist?

 

Tada!

[GroovyBee]

Excellent! I'm glad its winter soon. Plenty of dark nights to implement mad ideas .

[+wongojack]

dig

 

Anything ever come out of this discussion?

[barnieg]

Thought it might be an idea to resurrect this thread as Controlling a Robotron style game properly will require a decent robotron style control system. Either allowing Atari type joysticks to be attached to the Aquarius mini expander (or applicable retro system of choice) or something similar to GroovyBee's 7800 adapter for Playstation pads.

 

I've been playing emulated Robotron recently using an XBOX 360 controller with the digital d-pad for movement & the right analogue stick for firing on Mame of course this would require a usb adapter which might get a little complex!