Genesis Composite into HDTV

[MagitekAngel]

All my crap is hooked up to a Samsung 32" LCD HDTV. Everything pre-PS2 is hooked up in composite, and for the most part, it looks fine. My Genesis, on the other hand, looks absolutely Godawful - the image is very pixelated - looks like it's suffering from information loss equivalent to converting a bitmap to a JPEG in MS Paint. It's a Model 2 Genesis, and the composite cable was bought of eBay new (so, not the first party cable). Is it the Genesis? The cable? Does anybody else have the same problem?

[Reaperman]

All my crap is hooked up to a Samsung 32" LCD HDTV. Everything pre-PS2 is hooked up in composite, and for the most part, it looks fine. My Genesis, on the other hand, looks absolutely Godawful - the image is very pixelated - looks like it's suffering from information loss equivalent to converting a bitmap to a JPEG in MS Paint. It's a Model 2 Genesis, and the composite cable was bought of eBay new (so, not the first party cable). Is it the Genesis? The cable? Does anybody else have the same problem?

It's probably the tv's scaling system choking on genesis 240p video. Some HDTV's have trouble with it, most don't. Mine displays a totally black screen except for a couple games, so I had to purchase an external scaling device. External scalers are pricey new, but go for almost nothing used. I use a Deuce 2200 myself.

Edited October 15, 2010 by Reaperman

[+SpiceWare]

My HDTV is finicky on the old consoles as well.

[kool kitty89]

It sounds like you might be experiencing the normal composite video artifacts seen on many models of the Genesis.

 

Is it a model 2? The model 2s often use a Samsung KA2195D video encoder that tends to have some heavy vertical bars/blocky artifacts vs the less artifacted but fairly blurry video of the CXA1145 common to NTSC model 1s and some model 2s. (late model 2s have a CXA1645 which should be better, but on certain models other things screw that up too)

It's also heavily dependent on TV as some will blur the crap out of stuff and hid the artifacts and there's also varying comb filtering ability, (or older/cheaper TVs with crappier notch filters instead of comb filters -which makes a lot of color bleed) The KA2195 also has no s-video support. (even with modding the only opion is taking RGB and an external encoder)

The one good thing about the KA2195 is that unlike the Sony CXA1145 or even CXA1645 and Fujitsu MB3514 you don't get the rainbow artifacts on dithered surfaces in high res (320x224) mode in NTSC, I think. (PAL has no problem either way as they higher color resolution avoids it -also games in 256 wide mode tend to not be a problem either, and RGB avoids it too -s-video has it very mildly)

 

One thing you should definitely try is going into the custom video options and turning off all filters (especially edge enhancement) and then turning sharpness down.

[2600FunTimes]

Using a lil' "piece-o-crap" CRT for my old consoles, was never truly satisfied with the output on my older game consoles, even when I played around with the preferences and sharpness.

 

Always thinking about going back and trying other things though, this retro clunker of mine sadly won't last forever - but maybe long enough to continue enjoying.

[MagitekAngel]

It sounds like you might be experiencing the normal composite video artifacts seen on many models of the Genesis.

 

Is it a model 2? The model 2s often use a Samsung KA2195D video encoder that tends to have some heavy vertical bars/blocky artifacts vs the less artifacted but fairly blurry video of the CXA1145 common to NTSC model 1s and some model 2s. (late model 2s have a CXA1645 which should be better, but on certain models other things screw that up too)

It's also heavily dependent on TV as some will blur the crap out of stuff and hid the artifacts and there's also varying comb filtering ability, (or older/cheaper TVs with crappier notch filters instead of comb filters -which makes a lot of color bleed) The KA2195 also has no s-video support. (even with modding the only opion is taking RGB and an external encoder)

The one good thing about the KA2195 is that unlike the Sony CXA1145 or even CXA1645 and Fujitsu MB3514 you don't get the rainbow artifacts on dithered surfaces in high res (320x224) mode in NTSC, I think. (PAL has no problem either way as they higher color resolution avoids it -also games in 256 wide mode tend to not be a problem either, and RGB avoids it too -s-video has it very mildly)

 

One thing you should definitely try is going into the custom video options and turning off all filters (especially edge enhancement) and then turning sharpness down.

 

VERY helpful explanation, you sure know your stuff! I plugged my Model 2 into a CTR TV just to be sure, and it is indeed sending out a noticeably blurrier and more pixelated signal than my other classic consoles. No visible artifacting on the CTR, though. I'm wondering if a Model 1 would serve me better.

[kool kitty89]

VERY helpful explanation, you sure know your stuff! I plugged my Model 2 into a CTR TV just to be sure, and it is indeed sending out a noticeably blurrier and more pixelated signal than my other classic consoles. No visible artifacting on the CTR, though. I'm wondering if a Model 1 would serve me better.

There's a lot of info here: http://sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7796

Though the main article could use some revision given some later discussion as it seems the Samsung chip has merits on certain TVs or set-ups and even the supposedly "best" Sony CXA1645 has significant issues seen somewhere in that long thread. And again, one solidly good thing with the otherwise limted Samsung chip is a lack of "rainbow" artifacts on dithered areas like the reansparent waterfall in Sonic 1.

It seems the VA4 revision model 2 may have changed some other external circuitry that resulted in the same CXA1645 encoder looking better than on the VA3 revision, though it may be very TV dependent as well.

The CXA1145 is rather blurred by comparison (not smeary colors as such on my TVs at full sharpness, but there's artifacts and some general blending, but in the luma signal -ie the B/W signal, the sort of things that stay when you turn color off), that is unless I turn sharpness way down and get a bit of bleeding and a lot of blur that obscures the artifacts.

 

You'd need to open the system up to be sure, and if it's a Samsung KA2195 you're pretty much stuck vs using an external RGB encoder (cheaper to find a new console), but if you have a CXA1145 or CXA1645 (or a Fujitsu MB3514 -but those are uncommon outside of Europe) you can s-video mod it and also improve composite for the CXA1145 with a simple mod). The CXA1645 and MB3514 are very simple to S-video mod (literally just a couple resistors and an s-video socket -or hardwired cable or some other options on mounting) but the CXA1145 requires a bit more work with a luma amp being built. (requires a transistor, capacitor, and a resistor -not enough to require a breadboard though)

 

So if you're even moderately capable at soldering or have a friend/family member who is and can follow directions, you can do that at very low cost. (radio shack and Fry's prices aren't great but they're OK -better at some online dealers and perhaps you have another local option as well)

 

 

 

Oh, and did you try altering the filter and sharpness settings on the HD set?

 

 

 

Edit: I found some more posts on the topic:

http://sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?p=237182#post237182

http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/8313/sonicx.jpg

 

http://sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?p=258766 (more in general earlier in the thread also showing an odd case where the 32x actually had more artifacting issues than the Genesis -usually the 32x improved video quality)

Edited October 16, 2010 by kool kitty89