Replacement Jag Controller Buttons

[the.golden.ax]

He is moving

[Judas-Prime]

Did you perfect the D-Mod Judas? Any new designs/colours tried?

 

Hi gang,

A quick update. Nothing new, just moved into my new place and am waiting for the movers to bring all my stuff to my new apt. So no new molds or cast pieces until they get here. Soon.... ALso I received the Pro-Controller Lentzquest, its in great shape save for some minimal damage on a few buttons and some cable damage, but other than that its in super great condition. Also, Upon first inspection , pro-controllers will be much easier to make moulds of, and cast new shells in resin. The original controllers have a slanted seam between the shell halves where as the Pro-Controller has a straight seam. THis means less silicon required to pour moulds, a better seal between the mould halves and in general a much easier task in making and casting the pro-controller shells.

 

My question to you guys is what would you prefer me to focus on? Pro-controller shells or Classic shells? The circuit boards are not the same so you cant just put a classic controllers electronics in a pro-controller shell..not without modification. I will eventually do both, but i really want to offer Pro-Controllers as a way to reduce the stupid high prices of pro-controllers on Ebay and elsewhere. I think that with some clever engineering we could come up with a viable aftermarket solution to the Pro-controller shortage/ stupid high prices. The Pro-controller electronics are off the shelf parts correct? At first glance it seems like we should be able to reverse engineer them. Any electronic engineers or really smart people wanna weigh in on this? I will be taking some pics of the insides of the pro-controller tonight and will try to post them soon....we still dont have internet (using our business center ATM)

 

Anyway thats my update. Thanks for hanging in there during this move.....once Im up and running again Ill have more to announce.

[Judas-Prime]

Received my D-Rad in the mail today. It was a perfect fit replacement for the stock d-pad. I am going to try it out tonight and will report back on results. Initially, it feels great, like the way the Jag controller should have been from the factory.

 

Glad to hear you got the D-Rad. ANy updates on how it plays for you? Im really looking forward to your feedback. Thanks again!

[the.golden.ax]

Did you perfect the D-Mod Judas? Any new designs/colours tried?

 

Hi gang,

A quick update. Nothing new, just moved into my new place and am waiting for the movers to bring all my stuff to my new apt. So no new molds or cast pieces until they get here. Soon.... ALso I received the Pro-Controller Lentzquest, its in great shape save for some minimal damage on a few buttons and some cable damage, but other than that its in super great condition. Also, Upon first inspection , pro-controllers will be much easier to make moulds of, and cast new shells in resin. The original controllers have a slanted seam between the shell halves where as the Pro-Controller has a straight seam. THis means less silicon required to pour moulds, a better seal between the mould halves and in general a much easier task in making and casting the pro-controller shells.

 

My question to you guys is what would you prefer me to focus on? Pro-controller shells or Classic shells? The circuit boards are not the same so you cant just put a classic controllers electronics in a pro-controller shell..not without modification. I will eventually do both, but i really want to offer Pro-Controllers as a way to reduce the stupid high prices of pro-controllers on Ebay and elsewhere. I think that with some clever engineering we could come up with a viable aftermarket solution to the Pro-controller shortage/ stupid high prices. The Pro-controller electronics are off the shelf parts correct? At first glance it seems like we should be able to reverse engineer them. Any electronic engineers or really smart people wanna weigh in on this? I will be taking some pics of the insides of the pro-controller tonight and will try to post them soon....we still dont have internet (using our business center ATM)

 

Anyway thats my update. Thanks for hanging in there during this move.....once Im up and running again Ill have more to announce.

 

I was thinking the same thing as soon as you started talking and you went right there with it. That would be awesome. I know there are lots of people who design PCBs on Atari Age. Maybe someone like Tursi and Goat Store could get in on it and help fund the PCB production.

[Judas-Prime]

Did you perfect the D-Mod Judas? Any new designs/colours tried?

 

Hi gang,

A quick update. Nothing new, just moved into my new place and am waiting for the movers to bring all my stuff to my new apt. So no new molds or cast pieces until they get here. Soon.... ALso I received the Pro-Controller Lentzquest, its in great shape save for some minimal damage on a few buttons and some cable damage, but other than that its in super great condition. Also, Upon first inspection , pro-controllers will be much easier to make moulds of, and cast new shells in resin. The original controllers have a slanted seam between the shell halves where as the Pro-Controller has a straight seam. THis means less silicon required to pour moulds, a better seal between the mould halves and in general a much easier task in making and casting the pro-controller shells.

 

My question to you guys is what would you prefer me to focus on? Pro-controller shells or Classic shells? The circuit boards are not the same so you cant just put a classic controllers electronics in a pro-controller shell..not without modification. I will eventually do both, but i really want to offer Pro-Controllers as a way to reduce the stupid high prices of pro-controllers on Ebay and elsewhere. I think that with some clever engineering we could come up with a viable aftermarket solution to the Pro-controller shortage/ stupid high prices. The Pro-controller electronics are off the shelf parts correct? At first glance it seems like we should be able to reverse engineer them. Any electronic engineers or really smart people wanna weigh in on this? I will be taking some pics of the insides of the pro-controller tonight and will try to post them soon....we still dont have internet (using our business center ATM)

 

Anyway thats my update. Thanks for hanging in there during this move.....once Im up and running again Ill have more to announce.

 

I was thinking the same thing as soon as you started talking and you went right there with it. That would be awesome. I know there are lots of people who design PCBs on Atari Age. Maybe someone like Tursi and Goat Store could get in on it and help fund the PCB production.

 

Exactly, I have a very limited set of electronic skills...I can hack stuff up..but making something that is reproducible and consistant is not in my skill set. Not now at least. Anyway, I would love to open this topic up more and invite any and all people who can contribute...lets get the ball rolling and see what we can do. Resin cases and buttons are my bag so I can cover that aspect....I cant wait until my supplies gets here (tomorrow) .....and a side note, there is a mould supplies store down the street from my new Apt. so supplies are right around the corner.

Edited May 18, 2012 by Judas-Prime

[Austin]

Focus on classic shells. Pro Controllers are much less common and less people are likely to have them.

 

Reproducing the Pro Controllers themselves though.. Hm, if that is possible, that would most certainly be awesome!

[Judas-Prime]

On the Pro-Controller front I found this schematic for the classic controller....From what I understand the pro-controller is basically a modded classic controller, so this should serve as a great starting point.

 

Jaguar Controller Schematic

 

Edited May 19, 2012 by Judas-Prime

[Judas-Prime]

Focus on classic shells. Pro Controllers are much less common and less people are likely to have them.

 

Reproducing the Pro Controllers themselves though.. Hm, if that is possible, that would most certainly be awesome!

 

Thanks for the feedback Austin. Your thoughts echo mine, But I would love to offer NEW Pro-Controllers...making the shells is the easy part. I would love to offer them in custom color combinations, made to order.

[walter_J64bit]

After market Pro-Controller awesome!

[the.golden.ax]

Just a thought, but if making new pro controllers from scratch, why limit yourself to their stock design at all. It could be shaped like something more comfortable like a SNES pad with a detachable digit pad that connects when needed. Just brain storming.

[twoquickcapri]

I would prefer the saturn pad. It already has the right number of face buttons.

[thucom]

Even better thought. somehow manage to convert the phone pad into 2 d-pads+shoulder buttons, or just plain seperate out the buttons. It just takes too much room all together like it is. If it can be broken up to be placed strategically around where your hand already is on the controller, certain games might actually be easier to play.

[Zerosquare]

Pro controllers aren't really anything special, electronics-wise. Remember that there are really no "new" buttons: all the extra buttons are just "shortcuts" for numeric keypad keys. So all you need to do is wire each button in parallel with the one on the keypad.

 

Here's the map (from the Jaguar FAQ) :

L : 4

R : 6

X : 7

Y : 8

Z : 9

[sqoon]

Here is my promised review of D-Rad stick on the stock Jaguar controller:

 

Raiden – Stick performs amazingly, offering control not like the standard d-pad. I found myself resting my left thumb on the top of the D-Rad. This worked great for quick directional changes of my Raiden ship. Highly recommend D-Rad for this game.

 

NBA Jam T.E. – Good overall control of my players, both with my thumb on top of the D-Rad stick, and holding the D-Rad between my left thumb and forefinger. Was it an improvement over the stock d-pad? I think so. I seemed to have better control of my players, especially allowing precision placement of my players outside the 3 point arc.

 

Cybermorph – The D-Rad stick was meant for a flight game like this. I loved how it allowed for easy tilt back for climbing, and tilting forward for descending. Definitely recommend it for this game alone.

 

Tempest 2000 – D-Rad was not meant for this game. I found myself having a difficult time figuring which way to tilt the D-Rad stick to make my sprite move clockwise or counterclockwise. Not recommended for this game.

 

I also have an adapter cable from Best Electronics that allows me to use Jaguar controllers on DB-9 consoles like 7800 and Colecovision. Hence, I tried it on some 7800 titles.

 

Donkey Kong, Jr. – Great arcade-like stick for DK Jr. This is the stick the 7800 has been needing. I actually played this game for about a half hour with no hand cramps ala 7800 stock controllers.

 

Ms. Pac Man – Like DK Jr., allowed arcade-like control of my player. I think I’m liking D-Rad for 7800 games.

 

Galaga – Being an 80’s arcade regular, I always loved Galaga. Only trouble was getting an arcade-close controller for home console ports. The D-Rad was as close to arcade of anything I have played Galaga on at home. Nice.

 

Final thoughts: I actually think D-Rad is the digital controller that Atari should have released with the 5200 console way back when. Save Tempest 2000, it shined with everything I threw at it. Highly recommended stick adapter for the Jaguar (and 7800 with adapter plug).

[Austin]

That's.. Rad!

[Judas-Prime]

Here is my promised review of D-Rad stick on the stock Jaguar controller:

 

Raiden – Stick performs amazingly, offering control not like the standard d-pad. I found myself resting my left thumb on the top of the D-Rad. This worked great for quick directional changes of my Raiden ship. Highly recommend D-Rad for this game.

 

NBA Jam T.E. – Good overall control of my players, both with my thumb on top of the D-Rad stick, and holding the D-Rad between my left thumb and forefinger. Was it an improvement over the stock d-pad? I think so. I seemed to have better control of my players, especially allowing precision placement of my players outside the 3 point arc.

 

Cybermorph – The D-Rad stick was meant for a flight game like this. I loved how it allowed for easy tilt back for climbing, and tilting forward for descending. Definitely recommend it for this game alone.

 

Tempest 2000 – D-Rad was not meant for this game. I found myself having a difficult time figuring which way to tilt the D-Rad stick to make my sprite move clockwise or counterclockwise. Not recommended for this game.

 

I also have an adapter cable from Best Electronics that allows me to use Jaguar controllers on DB-9 consoles like 7800 and Colecovision. Hence, I tried it on some 7800 titles.

 

Donkey Kong, Jr. – Great arcade-like stick for DK Jr. This is the stick the 7800 has been needing. I actually played this game for about a half hour with no hand cramps ala 7800 stock controllers.

 

Ms. Pac Man – Like DK Jr., allowed arcade-like control of my player. I think I’m liking D-Rad for 7800 games.

 

Galaga – Being an 80’s arcade regular, I always loved Galaga. Only trouble was getting an arcade-close controller for home console ports. The D-Rad was as close to arcade of anything I have played Galaga on at home. Nice.

 

Final thoughts: I actually think D-Rad is the digital controller that Atari should have released with the 5200 console way back when. Save Tempest 2000, it shined with everything I threw at it. Highly recommended stick adapter for the Jaguar (and 7800 with adapter plug).

 

Thank you for the feedback. its good to hear that it worked well for you and with so many different games. Especially the 7800 ones. Im still tweaking the underlying mech on teh D-Rad too so hopefully I can improve the performance across all games.

 

Thanks again sqoon.

[Amstari]

Pro controllers aren't really anything special, electronics-wise. Remember that there are really no "new" buttons: all the extra buttons are just "shortcuts" for numeric keypad keys. So all you need to do is wire each button in parallel with the one on the keypad.

 

So it would be easy to convert a normal controller into a Pro Controller, you just have to add the buttons and solder them to the keypad. That's great!

Although looking at my controller there isn't much room above the existing buttons to put any more buttons.

 

Maybe a Pro Controller conversion would be possible. Take the internals from the classic controller, put it inside a new case from Judas-Prime and wire up the extra buttons.

[sqoon]

Thank you for the feedback. its good to hear that it worked well for you and with so many different games. Especially the 7800 ones. Im still tweaking the underlying mech on teh D-Rad too so hopefully I can improve the performance across all games.

 

Thanks again sqoon.

 

Just another thought: I saw one time where an innovative person cut the standard 5200 stick about 1/2 in length, sort of a stubby stick. Because of my inclination to play with my left thumb on top of the D-Rad stick, maybe a shortened version would be easier on the thumb? If you try this, it would be great if you could leave the concentric grip rings on top of the stick.

 

Keep up the excellent work.

[Judas-Prime]

Pro controllers aren't really anything special, electronics-wise. Remember that there are really no "new" buttons: all the extra buttons are just "shortcuts" for numeric keypad keys. So all you need to do is wire each button in parallel with the one on the keypad.

 

So it would be easy to convert a normal controller into a Pro Controller, you just have to add the buttons and solder them to the keypad. That's great!

Although looking at my controller there isn't much room above the existing buttons to put any more buttons.

 

Maybe a Pro Controller conversion would be possible. Take the internals from the classic controller, put it inside a new case from Judas-Prime and wire up the extra buttons.

 

The internals from a classic controller wont fit into a Pro-Controller shell. The Pro Controller upper Circut board is a different size and layout than the Classic circuit board. The numerical pad electronics is Proly the same, but the upper D=pad and action button PCB is totaly differnet. This is why I want to investigate creating NEW internal PCB's for new pro-contollers.

[Zerosquare]

The Pro-Controller also has better buttons. I don't know how it's done internally (I don't own one, I just tried a friend's), but the tactile response is definitely better ; the buttons feel responsive, unlike the somewhat "spongy" touch of the standard pads.

[Judas-Prime]

The Pro-Controller also has better buttons. I don't know how it's done internally (I don't own one, I just tried a friend's), but the tactile response is definitely better ; the buttons feel responsive, unlike the somewhat "spongy" touch of the standard pads.

 

The pro controller buttons have a silicon membrane switch embedded into each button, whereas the standard controller has the buttons resting on top of a silicon membrane. THe difference is on a pro controller when you press the button you are pressing a single unit (buttons and membrane switch) onto the contacts of the PCB, on a classic controller you press the button, the button presses the membrane and THEN the membrane switch hits the contacts of the PCB. Also, the silicon membrane in a pro controller has a much shorter travel distance than the classic controller before they engage the contacts on the PCB.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Judas-Prime

[Amstari]

 

The internals from a classic controller wont fit into a Pro-Controller shell. The Pro Controller upper Circut board is a different size and layout than the Classic circuit board. The numerical pad electronics is Proly the same, but the upper D=pad and action button PCB is totaly differnet. This is why I want to investigate creating NEW internal PCB's for new pro-contollers.

 

That would be great to have new Pro controllers!

 

I would buy two of them.

[Judas-Prime]

Update!!:

 

Hi gang.. sorry for the extended downtime. But Im back, moved in to my new place and am getting my studio set up. Almost finished so thats good... I hit up a local used game store (Game Dude for you So-Cal people) and picke dup some games , Iron soldier 1, Flashback, and a copy of Cybermorph...Total cost was $ 25.00 so thats not too bad. Upon getting home Cybermorph was immediately taken apart so I can prep some Moulds for colored cartridge since thats a fairly common request. Also I ordered additional Resin dyes to offer wider variety of choices. All this leads to the announcement that i will be taking orders very soon...I will be posting a Product list with pics and prices soon..

 

Controller shell update: I haven't completed the front shell mould as I am out of Liquid silicone, I have a local source so I will be able to get what i need quickly so shouldn't be too much longer. HOnestly there are a few issues I need to work out on the planning for the mould anyway so its best not to rush it.

 

Anyway, hope everyone is having a great weekend. More updates soon.

[walter_J64bit]

LOL, I might be able to get me some Blood Red DOOM carts!

Edited May 28, 2012 by walter_J64bit

[Judas-Prime]

Pro Controller Pics!!!

 

So I finally got around to taking those pics of the internals of a Pro-Controller. I have searched high and low and couldn't find pics anywhere online..so I decided to post these. This was an exploratory operation, prepping for buttons , d-pads and shells for the Pro-Controller while I wait for supplies to arrive.

 

Onto the pics!

 

These pics are the controller just opened up. i moved the wires for the second pic and focused on the shoulder butons mechanic for the third.The shoulder buttons are interesting as the design works off of a hinge style mech. You press "In" on the button but it swings "Out" to press the switch. Its pretty clever, but I will admit i had a good chuckle at how they rigged it all up. Weird and Cool...thats my ATARI.

 

 

These pics focus on the buttons as they look after unscrewing the upper PCB. Yes, Atari finally screwed the PCB onto the controller for the Pro-Controllers. I will go on record and say that for this reason alone the Pro-controllers have superior button feel and response. As you can see the buttons have their own individual Silicone Switch seated inside the button whereas on a standard controller the button rests on the silicone switch..the switch being fastened to the PCB. Just by adding the pressure from the screw, Atari solved the "mushy" button problem...as usual YMMV.

 

 

Looking deeper, you can see In the first pic a comparison between a standard Jag Controller Silicon Switch (left,) a pro controller (middle) and an aftermarket saturn controller on the right. The Pro-Controller has a larger contact disk and a shorter "throw" before making contact than the standard controller. The parts ATARI used for the pro controller are clearly superior as they have a much springier feel, larger contact and shorter "throw"

 

 

Just a front shot of the PCB's, You can see that the upper PCB is smaller and more compact than that of the standard controller, in-spite of adding three buttons. The D-pad silicone membrane feels much more dense and had a snappier response than the standard controller.Notice the absence of the Orange spacer "cone" for the d-pad. For the pro-controller the spacer has been designed into the underside of the D-pad, a design choice I disagree with for a variety of reasons. Luckily enough the D-pads between controllers (pro and standard) are the same shape and size so any D-pad peripherals I make will work across both.

 

 

A shot of the Shoulder buttons. Nothing too remarkable about them.

 

 

The pro controller with a white D-Rad.

 

 

 

Overall the Pro-controller is built nice and is something every Jag fan should have access to. The Pro-Controller has its share of quirkiness, but its a solid piece of equipment and one I am looking forward to making replicas of very soon.

Edited May 28, 2012 by Judas-Prime