+CharlieChaplin Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Well, there have already been many different Gr. 15 modes for more luminances (1 colour, up to 7 or 8 luminances; from time to time up to 8 different colours). But most of them use some sort of interlace (with high flicker), e.g. INT, INP and many others - see ATR images at atarionline.pl: http://www.atarionline.pl/v01/index.php?ct=utils&sub=2.+Grafika&tg=Grafika+INP#Grafika_INP There were also modes that produced up to 16 colours in 160x200 (240) resolution, like MAX, Mc-Painter (?) and others, see downloads at atarionline: http://www.atarionline.pl/v01/index.php?ct=utils&sub=2.+Grafika&tg=McPainter#McPainter http://www.atarionline.pl/v01/index.php?ct=utils&sub=2.+Grafika&tg=Grafika+MAX#Grafika_MAX and last not least a mode that produced 16 colours in 160x100 flicker-free resolution, created with Paradox by Satantronic (most pics had also been drawn by Satantronic then), e.g. look here: http://satantronic.atari.sk/?str=xe_utils to download Paradox 0.92 or look here for some GFX in this mode: http://satantronic.atari.sk/?str=xe_gfx Most of these gfx modes can also be shown in the PC programs AIS or FAIL: http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/148954-ais-atari-interlace-studio/page__st__25__hl__+ais#entry2523269 http://madteam.atari8.info/uzytki/ais.7z http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/191660-fail-120-released/page__hl__fail#entry2432068 http://fail.sourceforge.net/ Greetings, Andreas Koch. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 Hey, big thanks Andreas! Nice examples... I knew it shouldn't be anything new... For me it is the first really colorful mode that can be used for some kind of arcade game... And I have just found a game project begging for it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xuel Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 This looks pretty cool in the XL-Paint Max mode: http://youtu.be/Rhw5AbRoD3Q Emulator executable here (27MB compressed). I recorded the video using Altirra's frame blending mode. It looks pretty good in Pal Artifacting (High) mode as well. Compare to RastaMovie version here (25MB compressed). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Hi Xuel Is it someway possible you get each frame of this video and we build a film with Music and rasta converter like you did on the that Pixar's Bird film: http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/203753-something-actual-for-musicians-try-demo-with-gfxs-would-be-just-amazing/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CharlieChaplin Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 @Xuel: Tried to download the emulator executable of the XL-Paint Max movie - a) clicked on the link, nothing happened b) right-mouse click, save as - saved very quickly, with a length of 1 Byte !! Did not know the A8 can compress such a video so good... Can you repair the link ?!? -Andreas Koch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xuel Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 @Xuel: Tried to download the emulator executable of the XL-Paint Max movie - a) clicked on the link, nothing happened b) right-mouse click, save as - saved very quickly, with a length of 1 Byte !! Did not know the A8 can compress such a video so good... Can you repair the link ?!? -Andreas Koch. Sorry about that. Here is the correct link: https://github.com/d...ermovie/fim.zip 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xuel Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 (edited) Hi Xuel Is it someway possible you get each frame of this video and we build a film with Music and rasta converter like you did on the that Pixar's Bird film: http://www.atariage....e-just-amazing/ I'll give it a shot. Edited October 9, 2012 by Xuel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 This looks pretty cool in the XL-Paint Max mode: Graphics looks pretty OK, but sound is great! Wouldn't think it could sound that good.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthpopalooza Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 (edited) popmilo was kind enough to lend me a look at the source code for the 16 color 160x96 mode, and I did some experimenting ... The idea I had was, to see what would happen when you change the GTIA to mode 10 every other scanline, and no other color changes (except COLBAK). This was an idea I had used in my PCIN ICE character mode, which did a full frame flicker between Graphics 12 and 10 every VBLANK. What I wanted to do was see if I could apply this idea to a bitmap mode, in a similar fashion as the 160x96 mode. To start off, I took this source picture of Obi-wan: This is the same picture, rendered using PCIN character mode: obi-wan - pcin.atr This is 159x192, at 35 colors, full frame flicker with antiflicker dithering on PF0-PF3. To do the 159x96 interlace, you need a source Graphics 10 and a source Graphics 15 mic picture. You can get these with Atari Interlace Studio. You want to make sure PF0-PF2 are the same values on both renders, and choose values which step in luminance from darkest to lightest, this helps get a very distinct render. You have to shift the Graphics 15 mic file one pixel to the right so it will line up, as the mode 10 pixels get shifted one color clock to the right (the HIP bug). The interleaving is done by taking the first, third, fifth, ect. scanlines from the mode 15 render, and the second, fourth, etc. from the mode 10. Here was a preliminary result: I noticed the scanlines don't blend as well as they should, so I added in a scanline shift, by changing the first DLIST instruction (skip 8 scanlines) between 112 and 96. This is the result: obiwan.obx You get 30 colors onscreen at once, the colors are grouped into 9 groups of four colors each. Every two pixels has to be from the same color group. The PF and BAK color groups will share some colors. This mode doesn't flicker as much, because there are some areas where you will have the same PF register on both scan lines, these make solid colors. Here's a screen from the Ninja game done in this mode: ninja3.obx Best results are achieved in Altirra using Frame Blending, and no artifacting (PAL or NTSC). Would be keen to see what results are gotten on real hardware. Edited October 11, 2012 by Synthpopalooza 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthpopalooza Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 R-type screenshot, also in this mode rtype.obx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthpopalooza Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 (edited) double post ... doh! Edited October 14, 2012 by Synthpopalooza Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthpopalooza Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 And here's Turrican, converted from the Amiga screenshot, also in this mode ... I only did the playing area, not the status area below. The score display is also unreadable, but the rest shows up remarkably well. turrican.obx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Can anyone try this on a real machine ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creature XL Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Can anyone try this on a real machine ? I have tried your images on my PAL XL. Looking great. Tempting to use this mode for the HARem title pic It's a pitty its using the same 16 col for teh whol epic. As was mentioned, a line by line color change should be better. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 I have tried your images on my PAL XL. Looking great. Tempting to use this mode for the HARem title pic Thanks! What about Synthpopalooza's mixed-frames examples ? How are they considering flicker ? It's a pitty its using the same 16 col for teh whol epic. As was mentioned, a line by line color change should be better. Haven't had time to think in that direction... I agree, it could look much better with changes in color... Main point was to create 'linear' multi-color mode... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creature XL Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) What about Synthpopalooza's mixed-frames examples ? How are they considering flicker ? The flickering is horrible. I think I could accept it for a full screen pic which I look at 5-10 seconds, but in no way for a game. I am really thrilled to see an NTSC version in RL. For me its hard to imagine that the flickering isn't noticeable. In your pics there are these well known "black" scan-lines, but you do not recognize them at first. After some minutes they even feel natural And the colors seem to be clearer. However, that could be due to the used converters. Dunno. Haven't had time to think in that direction... I agree, it could look much better with changes in color... Main point was to create 'linear' multi-color mode... I C. Its better for games, I am sure. Your test pics were converted automatically, so they aren't the best there is. As Flash pixeld our HAR'em title pic on the ST, I asked him to just cut a quarter out of it - hoping you could be so kind and convert it for us EDIT: I have the ninja pic displayed on my TV for a while now... Do you thik a LN would be possible? AFAIK the game you only two moving charackters (2 * 2 Player) and one blinking object to collect (5th player). Care to move a little 2 colored PMG over one these pics? EDIT2: My GF just came in. I asked her if she notices something with the displayed picture. She didn't recognized the black scan-lines until I pointed them out Guess its needless to say what they said about the 50Hz-flickering of the other ninja pic Edited October 18, 2012 by Creature XL 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted October 18, 2012 Author Share Posted October 18, 2012 The mixed frame modes are inventive, but subjectively they just don't do it for me. The PAL mixing mode (while of limited use on NTSC, I appreciate) is pretty perfect as is in my eyes, although varying the palette down the screen might be a useful augmentation depending on the application. I think the scan lines and the muted colour hues combined give the PAL blended mode great character. It completely does the job it's supposed to do: 16 colour 160x96 without linear constraints. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Too bad for flickering... If you have any pic to convert just PM me... Or I can send you Python script that I used... @LN: Why not... Only question is amount of ram needed for such a large sprites and speed of soft sprites... @GF Awesome! I'll have try the same test Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creature XL Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 @LN: Why not... Only question is amount of ram needed for such a large sprites and speed of soft sprites... @GF Awesome! I'll have try the same test No soft sprites needed, just PMG. Or are there screens with more then 1 enemy? OTOH three sprites should work. In HAR'em all 5 enemy sprites are drawn in the VBL (before scan line 312). So even when you have a kernel running, from scan-line 248 to 312 is lots of time. And you must not even wait till 248. I start the VBI rouitne in scan-line 220 already Further, when you use a kernel for the color changes, then there might be time for Callisto-style PMG. So much to explore for you @GF: Thank god you added the word "test" to that sentence 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 No soft sprites needed, just PMG. Or are there screens with more then 1 enemy? PMs are limited 1 color means we would have to draw mask around them anyway just to get decent looking sprites... And if you want to use multiple PMs then you how very narrow sprites... Whole point of linear 16 color mode is to use those colors for sprites also As you said: "So much to explore" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xuel Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 Tiled side-scroller demo using PAL blending: http://youtu.be/09K95RlE14k Binaries and source are on github. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CharlieChaplin Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 (edited) Hey, this tiledemo plays very well - allthough the black stripes (which sadly cannot be avoided) and therefore the resolution does not look great, playing is still fun. Add some enemies, some more levels and maybe some extras (e.g. some weapon to shoot enemies) and you have a good game. And please, do not create "endless" long levels, better lots of short levels than one extremely long level... Besides, I have taken a look at the file and it consisted of hundreds of short data-segments, thanks to HiasSoft`s Ataricom program I was able to put them together again and ended up with a 68kbyte file. Next, I packed this file with TeBe`s Superpacker and ended up with a 12kbyte file - nice, isn`t it ?!? So, here is the packed fileversion on a single density (90k) image. Of course it still requires 128k RAM to work correctly... -Andreas Koch. tiledemo_128k.zip Edited November 11, 2012 by CharlieChaplin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xuel Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 @CharlieChaplin, Wow, I didn't know about Superpacker. That's really cool. Thanks! There's corrupted pixel in the top left of the sprites in your version. Some artifact of the packer? Could you pack the PAL version as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 Yep, it looks pretty good. Also, no reason not to have PMGs used normally to give fuller resolution and filled in objects. A Gianna Sisters or h/vscroll shooter in this mode would be good. Possibly use narrow mode and timer IRQ instead of DLIs to free up some CPU time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xuel Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 @CharlieChaplin Nevermind, I see that you included TILESN.XEX and TILESP.XEX on your disk. Thanks again! I'll incorporate Superpacker into my build flow. @Rybags It's actually using WSYNC (horror) instead of DLI or timer IRQ. I was thinking I could weave some structured computation into the display kernel but VSCROL and HSCROL create 16 possible badline/DMA scenarios to time, so yea interrupts are the way to go. I noticed early on that I could barely do the color swaps with normal playfield width, HSCROL, LMS and PM turned on every scan line! Narrow mode would alleviate that but I wanted to see what you could do maxing out the display area. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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