CPU comparison: SNES vs. Genesis vs. TG16

[Tempest]

10 minutes ago, Lost Monkey said:

 

 

This guy is single handedly taking the forum back to 2002. 

Yes, let's not do that shall we?  I really don't miss that kind of behavior at all...

 

I'll keep this topic open as long as everyone remains respectful.  Let's make sure we all do that.

 

For my part, I owned both the SNES and Genesis back in the day and got a TurboDuo around 2004ish when TZD was clearing them out.  I probably played the SNES more than the Genesis back then because of the Nintendo 1st party games, but I loved them pretty much equally.  I didn't really get into the TG-16 much since I got mine so late, but I always drooled over those videos they used to run at Babbages showing off various TG-16 games (they even made China Warrior look cool).  

[Kirk_Johnston]

2 hours ago, evilevoix said:

I like how you present Fan boi opinion as fact.  Being a lucky boy as I was having both consoles growing up i would concede ground to the SNES on RPG's only and that is close when compared to Fantasy Star and then the Sega CD titles which I agree isn't fair.  You seem to be taking this personally which is the wrong approach.

 

FACT: The Mega Drive moves games much more fluid, with less slow down, can move more sprites on screen (At speed)  and the sound is much more clear as it isn't muffled.  The MD is an actual instrument that needs to be played vs muffled samples with horrible reverb. 

 

You being with GRADIUS II Patch roms to fix slow down?  U.N. Squadron almost breaks your SNES if you use a CLUSTER BOMB.  SLOW SLOW SLOW and almost crashes on game play. R-TYPE AGAIN a slide show.  I mean the TG16 kills the SNES in this Genre and Lightening Force destroys any attempt of the SNES to even compete.  If you do not like fluidity than the SNES is your console.

 

Attacking SONIC won't get you any friends and FAN BOI High 5's on Mario are fine but you can't compare the way SONIC moves to a MARIO game even Yoshi's ISLAND with a Super FX chip has slow down issues.  Cute game, baby crying mechanic, solid.  SMW is iconic of course and I will compare SONIC to it all day, it moves much better.

 

Racing games?  The Mega Drive could actually render and scale without helper chips.  Sega could scale and rotate as well using it's hardware.  You've seen what treasure can do.

 

 

Want those 3D GRAFX on a SNES?  Stunt Race FX is a close as you can get and it's cropped, needs a SUPER FX CHIP, and is SLOW.  It is CUTE Though I'll give you that.

 

 

SNES was sold until 1998 so it had more years on the shelf than SEGA.  Made it until 1998. 

 

 

 

So if we are using today's technology the I will submit PAPRIUM which would make the SNES melt if it tried to move that many sprites. No Grafx chips here either, PURE 68000 here.

LINK: 

 

Music?

 

I will submit XENOCRISIS which could have the best music of any Game of the 16 Bit era.  Here is a few snippets that perfectly uses the MD sound machine to perfection.  Clear and no muffles.

 

LINK: 

 

 

link:

 

 

Also not to mention XENOCrisis is a top down bullet hell shooter that can run 2 player simultaneous with zero slowdown and zero helper chips.  SNES could never dream to run that game without issues.

 

Take one look at this game and tell me the SNES wouldn't melt trying to run it.  I even asked the developers if they could run it on the SNES and they stated that the resolution would have to be LOWER (Cropped) and it would, as you guessed, melt your SNES.  LIML: 

 

You keep presenting nostalgic feels as fact and that's fine if it make you happy but when entering a court of law opinion quickly fades in the light of facts.

 

THE MD played games faster, smoother, and without the aid of helper chips.  Your argument literally begins with a game that needs a modern patch to fix it.  Your SNES argument of more sprites is also null as it would slow to a crawl if it tried to put that much stuff on the screen. SNES CANNOT move as many sprites on screen as a Sega genesis unless you want a slide show.  It's like arguing your airplane has more storage space than SEGA's but you'd never get off the ground.  The SNES is known as a slowdown machine, it's essentially a feature at this point.

 

Even you would admit the glut of games on the SNES that have so much slowdown it hurts the game play and the over all experience.  This is the main reason SEGA ruled with sports games as it could handle so many objects at once so IDK why you would even try to argue sprites.

 

Take one look at PAPRIUM and tell me the SNES could get that much on screen with zero slow down.  Show me one game, one.  I have the game and played thought it several times the game has none.

 

 

Sega D-Pad destroys the SNES that isn't even close.  It has been argued that the SEGA 6 Button is the best controller ever made (Maybe the Saturn 6 button)

 

Not sure why you argued resolution as the SNES had many issues with cropping games.  It also warps it to fit the screen.    Earthworm Jim being a shining example of that which absolutely hurts game play.

The High RES on the SNES was used only for some menus and text, it's not like you got some HD Gameplay.

 

 

Genesis owns the beatemup genre not sure why you tried to slide that one past us and also trying to Sweep SOR2 under the carpet will only result in failure.  That game alone with so many sprites on screen and tremendous music cannot be ignored and you know that.  We also have the Hyper Stone Heist on the SEGA as well so not sure what your angle was.  SNES is for the most part terrible for beatem ups. 

 

SNES owns cute I'll give you that.  Your respect and opinion of the MD are noted but again cannot change the fact that the MD moves games better and plays them better.

 

See, I think you're confused about what I'm saying here: I'm not saying there aren't examples of the Genesis doing some games better than SNES--there are. But, just as you can find examples of games that are better on Genesis, I can find examples of games that are better on SNES:

 

 

Vs

 

 

And

 

 

And

 

 

Vs

 

 

And

 

 

And

 

 

And

 

 

And

 

 

And

 

 

Etc.

 

So it's not about individual examples that don't prove the power war conclusively either way. It's about everything taken as a whole, hence my post that did more than just compare this particular game vs that game but only examples that support one side of the debate as if that's the definitive decider.

 

And, no, it's not a "fact" that "Genesis moves games more fluid than SNES"--like it's only ever true one way around--and there's plenty of examples that similarly demonstrate the exact opposite, where the SNES is moving a particular game more fluid, as I have provided above. This is the kind of misguided and clearly bias assertion I'm talking about. Like when people claim the SNES is "slow", and yet I already provide plenty of examples of it being just as "fast" as any Genesis games in one of my original posts. The FACT is that both consoles are capable of some amazing stuff in the right hands, running just as fast as anything else, i.e. 60fps, and indeed also capable of stuff that the other system simply can't do or would entirely struggle with, like the 4 fully overlapping background examples on SNES that I provided previously, which I shall once again provide below:

 

 

 

Nor is it some kind of "fact" that that "the [Genesis] sound is much more clear as it isn't muffled.  The MD is an actual instrument that needs to be played vs muffled samples with horrible reverb."

 

Again, I can provide plenty examples that show perfectly clear and quality sound on SNES (technically as good as anything you've heard on Genesis. In fact, technically more advanced actually):

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Etc

 

You're very confused, or just plain blinded by your bias, if you think ^^^ constitutes "muffled" sound.

 

Most of the rest is just pointless as you're clearly not presenting anything with any real objective sense, such as "Sega D-Pad destroys the SNES that isn't even close.  It has been argued that the SEGA 6 Button is the best controller ever made (Maybe the Saturn 6 button)"

 

The SNES d-pad is LITERALLY the one that pretty much everyone has been trying to rip off for decades, and you actually think that just because you want to believe that Genesis d-pad is better that it is true. Enough. And similarly with your claim of the Genesis controller being the best ever. That's ONLY the most hardcore Genesis fans making such at claim. I can OBJECTIVELY demonstrate how the SNES controller is superior in multiple ways: More inputs, than even the 6-button pad, far more versatile (try doing a barrel roll intuitively on either Genesis controller, or strafing in Doom, of easily switching weapons and items in Zombies Ate My Neighbors, or dual wielding in Contra III, or aim-locking in Super Metroid, or using Select to bring up sub menus and other functions in any game, or moving in 8 directions plus firing in 8 directions in Smash TV, etc). And, despite you claiming the Genesis controller is superior, almost every single modern controller used a d-pad closer to SNES, has shoulder buttons like SNES, has an additional button alongside "Start" like SNES, had four face buttons in a diamond shape like SNES. I wonder why that is, if your Genesis controllers were the best there was. Your controller is demonstrably worse, but you can't see it because of pure blind bias.

 

And Genesis fans can defend Sonic all they like--they're very good game--but every single Best Games of All Time list, plus the fact that way more modern platform games are directly influenced by and ape much of Super Mario World more than any Sonic game (pick up and throw items, jump on enemies, smash item blocks, not super fast, no loop the loops, etc), speaks a slightly more objective truth. The Sonic platform games are good. The various Mario platform games are absolutely near-universally regarded as the pinnacle of the genre.

 

Yes, Genesis has Hypertone Heist, but Turtles in Time is better basically across the board, and represents arguably the best beat 'em up on SNES, easily going toe to toe with Streets of Rage 2 in most aspects, which is easily the best beat 'em up on Genesis. Hence why I compare to the best beat 'em ups on each system. Not rocket science.

 

The "cropping" you speak of is only an issue with cross-platform games, and specifically ones that were designed with Genesis as the lead platform and built around its specs. SNES does not have a "cropping" problem in games created for SNES. This is not some kind of inherent limitation and game-breaking thing on SNES, just as it wasn't on SNES, Master System, most handhelds, the majority of arcades, etc, before it.

 

The high-res on SNES is fully workable in actual games, whether it appeared in lots or not. It did appear in one, RPM racing, and there is literally zero debate it couldn't been used in more too. It just wasn't. But the machine is matter of fact capable of running games in a higher resolution that Genesis--end of.

 

SNES was indeed sold until a later date. But I notice how you just conveniently ignore the fact the Genesis had a 2 year head start in every single territory. And, regardless, the SNES still ultimately outsold it by 10-20 million depending on which random Genesis sales figures source you compare it to.

 

Lastly, you keep spouting this rubbish about slowdown, like it's an inherent issue of the SNES hardware that simply HAS to be there (instead of just being present in some badly programmed games and/or ones running in SlowROM because the developer was too cheap to use the better cartridges that were readily available at the time), yet I have already shown many examples that prove this outright false in my very first post. I'm not repeating myself on this. Stop lying to yourself and everyone else about such thing.

 

I wonder if you see the problem I have with all the blindly biased, misguided and inaccurate assertions like yours?

Edited April 25, 2022 by Kirk_Johnston

[evilevoix]

2 hours ago, Tempest said:

Yes, let's not do that shall we?  I really don't miss that kind of behavior at all...

 

I'll keep this topic open as long as everyone remains respectful.  Let's make sure we all do that.

 

For my part, I owned both the SNES and Genesis back in the day and got a TurboDuo around 2004ish when TZD was clearing them out.  I probably played the SNES more than the Genesis back then because of the Nintendo 1st party games, but I loved them pretty much equally.  I didn't really get into the TG-16 much since I got mine so late, but I always drooled over those videos they used to run at Babbages showing off various TG-16 games (they even made China Warrior look cool).  

When I got Birthday money back in the 90's I went to Electronics Boutique and picked up a TG16 with the CD Unit and my dad said no even though it was my own money.  Luckily my friend was selling a Turbo Duo with soem games (Jacky Chan, Vigilante, Football, Chase HQ).  so I had that.  Such a quirky system and I just love it.  I have a DUO R now and a Tone of TG16 stuff as of now.

 

 

 

 

MY TG Stuff now:

 

[Tempest]

I'm a huge RPG/Strategy RPG player so all three systems had great potential.  The SNES had the most memorable RPGs (to me anyway), but the Genesis had some good ones too like Sword of Vermillion (one of my favorites), Shining in the Darkness, Shining Force I/II, etc..  The TG-16/Duo was great for those fully Japanese style RPGs which were still rare at the time on western systems.  

[Kirk_Johnston]

3 hours ago, 5-11under said:

KJ, just remember that Tempest has one of these sitting beside his keyboard:

I rarely forget such things.

[+Stephen]

3 hours ago, Tempest said:

Wow, just wow.

Guess he told you Mr. Global moderator (whatever that means - LOL).  He's got his ways, so let him do his thing!

[Albert]

2 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Guess he told you Mr. Global moderator (whatever that means - LOL).

It means he can moderate over the entire forum, versus specific forums (there are only a few global moderators).

 

 ..Al

[+Gemintronic]

We all know that Club Drive has more polygons then Star Fox could ever dream.  Plus, the best selling dribble ball game based off of stereotypes.  Should we introduce our newest member to the real winner:  Atari Jaguar?

[evilevoix]

49 minutes ago, Kirk_Johnston said:

 

See, I think you're confused about what I'm saying here: I'm not saying there aren't examples of the Genesis doing some games better than SNES--there are. But, just as you can find examples of games that are better on Genesis, I can find examples of games that are better on SNES:

 

 

Vs

 

 

And

 

 

And

 

 

Vs

 

 

And

 

 

And

 

 

And

 

 

And

 

 

And

 

 

Etc.

 

So it's not about individual examples that don't prove the power war conclusively either way. It's about everything taken as a whole, hence my post that did more than just compare this particular game vs that game but only examples that support one side of the debate as if that's the definitive decider.

 

And, no, it's not a "fact" that "Genesis moves games more fluid than SNES"--like it's only ever true one way around--and there's plenty of examples that similarly demonstrate the exact opposite, where the SNES is moving a particular game more fluid, as I have provided above. This is the kind of misguided and clearly bias assertion I'm talking about. Like when people claim the SNES is "slow", and yet I already provide plenty of examples of it being just as "fast" as any Genesis games in one of my original posts. The FACT is that both consoles are capable of some amazing stuff in the right hands, running just as fast as anything else, i.e. 60fps, and indeed also capable of stuff that the other system simply can't do or would entirely struggle with, like the 4 fully overlapping background examples on SNES that I provided previously, which I shall once again provide below:

 

 

 

Nor is it some kind of "fact" that that "the [Genesis] sound is much more clear as it isn't muffled.  The MD is an actual instrument that needs to be played vs muffled samples with horrible reverb."

 

Again, I can provide plenty examples that show perfectly clear and quality sound on SNES (technically as good as anything you've heard on Genesis. In fact, technically more advanced actually):

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Etc

 

You're very confused, or just plain blinded by your bias, if you think ^^^ constitutes "muffled" sound.

 

Most of the rest is just pointless as you're clearly not presenting anything with any real objective sense, such as "Sega D-Pad destroys the SNES that isn't even close.  It has been argued that the SEGA 6 Button is the best controller ever made (Maybe the Saturn 6 button)"

 

The SNES d-pad is LITERALLY the one that pretty much everyone has been trying to rip off for decades, and you actually think that just because you want to believe that Genesis d-pad is better that it is true. Enough. And similarly with your claim of the Genesis controller being the best ever. That's ONLY the most hardcore Genesis fans making such at claim. I can OBJECTIVELY demonstrate how the SNES controller is superior in multiple ways: More inputs, than even the 6-button pad, far more versatile (try doing a barrel roll intuitively on either Genesis controller, or strafing in Doom, of easily switching weapons and items in Zombies Ate My Neighbors, or dual wielding in Contra III, or aim-locking in Super Metroid, or using Select to bring up sub menus and other functions in any game, or moving in 8 directions plus firing in 8 directions in Smash TV, etc). And, despite you claiming the Genesis controller is superior, almost every single modern controller used a d-pad closer to SNES, has shoulder buttons like SNES, has an additional button alongside "Start" like SNES, had four face buttons in a diamond shape like SNES. I wonder why that is, if your Genesis controllers were the best there was. Your controller is demonstrably worse, but you can't see it because of pure blind bias.

 

And Genesis fans can defend Sonic all they like--they're very good game--but every single Best Games of All Time list, plus the fact that way more modern platform games are directly influenced by and ape much of Super Mario World more than any Sonic game (pick up and throw items, jump on enemies, smash item blocks, not super fast, no loop the loops, etc), speaks a slightly more objective truth. The Sonic platform games are good. The various Mario platform games are absolutely near-universally regarded as the pinnacle of the genre.

 

Yes, Genesis has Hypertone Heist, but Turtles in Time is better basically across the board, and represents arguably the best beat 'em up on SNES, easily going toe to toe with Streets of Rage 2 in most aspects, which is easily the best beat 'em up on Genesis. Hence why I compare to the best beat 'em ups on each system. Not rocket science.

 

The "cropping" you speak of is only an issue with cross-platform games, and specifically ones that were designed with Genesis as the lead platform and built around its specs. SNES does not have a "cropping" problem in games created for SNES. This is not some kind of inherent limitation and game-breaking thing on SNES, just as it wasn't on SNES, Master System, most handhelds, the majority of arcades, etc, before it.

 

The high-res on SNES is fully workable in actual games, whether it appeared in lots or not. It did appear in one, RPM racing, and there is literally zero debate it couldn't been used in more too. It just wasn't. But the machine is matter of fact capable of running games in a higher resolution that Genesis--end of.

 

SNES was indeed sold until a later date. But I notice how you just conveniently ignore the fact the Genesis had a 2 year head start in every single territory. And, regardless, the SNES still ultimately outsold it by 10-20 million depending on which random Genesis sales figures source you compare it to.

 

Lastly, you keep spouting this rubbish about slowdown, like it's an inherent issue of the SNES hardware that simply HAS to be there (instead of just being present in some badly programmed games and/or ones running in SlowROM because the developer was too cheap to use the better cartridges that were readily available at the time), yet I have already shown many examples that prove this outright false in my very first post. I'm not repeating myself on this. Stop lying to yourself and everyone else about such thing.

 

I wonder if you see the problem I have with all the blindly biased, misguided and inaccurate assertions like yours?

  It always amazes me when someone just comes in with a Fan Boi attitude and tries to lay it down over and over again to get the same result.  

What you have ignored (again) are the following:

1.    The Genesis can and does move MORE Sprites on screen without slowdown or nearly as much.  This has been demonstrated for decades now and in fact does things the SNES simply cannot.
2.    I posted XENOCRISIS which would be impossible on the SNES to move that many sprites that fast without slowdown and cropping the grafx.
3.    And yes it's a "fact" that "Genesis moves games more fluid than SNES"  This seems to really upset you and to see you continue to argue this point is really troubling in the face of decades of evidence.
4.    It’s not one individual example but the extreme majority for the Sega Mega Drive.
5.    Your continued instance of the SNES being more fluid than the MD when you posted three examples of games that either need patches (Gradius III) or have crippling SLOW DOWN (U.N. Squadron) or simply cannot move as fast at all (SFII) let’s me know we’ve entered the realm of cognitive dissonance.
6.    The SNES is slow, it’s not only a claim, it is a fact.
7.    It is not as fast as ANY Sega game, it cannot run anything close to SORII or Litening Force or Gunstar Heroes or Hard Driving or XENOCRISIS or PAPRIUM.  It just would not work.  It needed a FX chip to run a cropped 8 FRAME PER SECOND 3d racing game when the SEGA Did it for Kawasaki Super Bike on stock hardware at a much faster rate.  Stop it.
8.    The Genesis has a clean sound output while the SNES is indeed muffled  The sound output is much more clear from the MD.  Now that is not to say that the MD can’t have bad sounding games, it is an instrument and can be played badly.  The SNES blasts samples that again can sound great but muffled.
Let me spoon feed it to you:
The "muffled" sound of the SNES comes from two things: low quality samples, and the guassian filter. Because of memory limitations (the SNES had a whopping 64KB of sound RAM), samples were often heavily compressed and of very low quality. Making this even worse is the Gaussian filter applied to all sound output from the system, which adds another layer of blur to things.

The SPC700 chip has the ability to "echo" or reverb sounds, which you can hear quite clearly in the piano in Secret of Mana's theme. A lot of composers took advantage of this, resulting in that very distinct sound.

On a different side of things, the Mega Drive generated audio using an FM sound chip, which didn't have to rely on samples. Sounds could be much more raw so to speak, although programming for the Mega Drive's main audio chip is a heck of a lot harder than just plopping a few compressed samples in and calling it a day.
9.    Everybody and their mother agrees that the Sega D Pad is without equal.  The SNES controller is awkward for fighting games using shoulders for Punch/KICK and a proper Sega 6 button.  Nintendo DID create the Modern D-Pad as we know it with their Game and Watch devices and was copied completely by the TG-16 but a proper 8-way pad with perfect feel is what separated Sega and made it superior.  The SNES shoulder buttons are awkward and not natural, this would later be alleviated by the PlayStation with proper triggers which are superior. I used the Mad Catz High Frequency Turbo 6-Button Gamepad Controller for SNES exclusively because it properly puts the shoulder buttons on the face and improves the D-PAD.  This made Super Metroid a much better experience for me as well.  I can’t even use a stock SNES controller any more unless for nostalgic reasons.  If your augment is more buttons = better than the Atari Jaguar controller is the best ever made and we are both wrong.
10.    Nintendo Fan Bois will defend their 1st party games as best of all time and that’s great like I said High Five each other in an echo chamber until your ears bleed.  Another Mario Tennis, another Mario Party, we get it, same story over and over again.  Mario Sunshine was a fantastic risk that changed a lot and I wish they would continue to improve their product instead of going back to the well.
11.    Sega was an UPSTART, it fought from nothing against an Illegal monopoly that punished any game developer that made games for any other systems and by 1994 was LOSING to Sega in sales from 55% to 45% of the market.
12.    SNES for the most part had LOWER Resolution 256×224 (NTSC) vs the Sega’s 320x224 so yes many SNES games were cropped and stretched sometimes hiding integral graphics and platforms.  Game breaking is a stretch but certainly a nuisance and not ideal.  The SNES does not have a 320x224 mode. Neither does the PC Engine/TurboGrafx. The PC Engine has a 352x224 mode, though. The reason those systems rarely use those higher resolutions is likely that the sprite/pixel capacity per line does not increase as the resolution increases, so it you would see more flicker with seemingly less stuff onscreen. And for the SNES, well it has trouble running games at the lowest resolution as it is.
13.    RPM Racing was spit screen.  It also ran at a very slow frame rate and definitely displayed those muffled sound FX and music tracks I was talking about.  This is your “Ace in the Hole”?  LINK: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fg8NhT9q0w .
The downside of double-resolution was the reduction to half-color. Less than half, really, since we're talking bit depth here. Rather than being able to display the usual 8-bit color palette (256 colors) you saw in Super NES games, R.P.M.'s use of hardware graphical Mode 5 (or possibly the very similar Mode 6) traded double pixels for mere 4-bit color (16 colors). You didn't see many games use Mode 5 or Mode 6 outside of menus, and R.P.M. Racing is probably why. It was an object lesson for ambitious Super NES programmers.  This sis why if anything it was used for TEXT only.  VERY limited.
14.    Sega could do interlaced: 320×448, 256×448 (NTSC) or 320×480, 256×480 and was used to great effect for the Sonic 2 2-player split screen with zero lost effects.
15.    Sales? Sega competed against a NES market that was 90%+ when it started and then have 55% by 1994.  1994 Sega made the Jump to 32 bits so again not sure what you are trying to argue here.
16.    The SNES is the slowdown king.  It is now troubling to see you blindly argue against decades of repeated proof starting from the very game magazines during the time to the latest Youtube videos.  
17.    Nothing goes Toe to Toe with Streets of Rage 2, it is Genre Defining.
18.    Streets of Rage 2 would not work on a SNES without significant slowdown, less sprites on screen (Especially 2 player), and inferior music clarity and sound
19.    SNES could never do Xenocrisis due to sprite limit and slowdown.
20.    I see you’ve completely ignored Sega’s effort on PAPRIUM which is wise because again it would be impossible on the SNES.

 
 

 

[Kirk_Johnston]

1 hour ago, evilevoix said:

  It always amazes me when someone just comes in with a Fan Boi attitude and tries to lay it down over and over again to get the same result.  

What you have ignored (again) are the following:

1.    The Genesis can and does move MORE Sprites on screen without slowdown or nearly as much.  This has been demonstrated for decades now and in fact does things the SNES simply cannot.
2.    I posted XENOCRISIS which would be impossible on the SNES to move that many sprites that fast without slowdown and cropping the grafx.
3.    And yes it's a "fact" that "Genesis moves games more fluid than SNES"  This seems to really upset you and to see you continue to argue this point is really troubling in the face of decades of evidence.
4.    It’s not one individual example but the extreme majority for the Sega Mega Drive.
5.    Your continued instance of the SNES being more fluid than the MD when you posted three examples of games that either need patches (Gradius III) or have crippling SLOW DOWN (U.N. Squadron) or simply cannot move as fast at all (SFII) let’s me know we’ve entered the realm of cognitive dissonance.
6.    The SNES is slow, it’s not only a claim, it is a fact.
7.    It is not as fast as ANY Sega game, it cannot run anything close to SORII or Litening Force or Gunstar Heroes or Hard Driving or XENOCRISIS or PAPRIUM.  It just would not work.  It needed a FX chip to run a cropped 8 FRAME PER SECOND 3d racing game when the SEGA Did it for Kawasaki Super Bike on stock hardware at a much faster rate.  Stop it.
8.    The Genesis has a clean sound output while the SNES is indeed muffled  The sound output is much more clear from the MD.  Now that is not to say that the MD can’t have bad sounding games, it is an instrument and can be played badly.  The SNES blasts samples that again can sound great but muffled.
Let me spoon feed it to you:
The "muffled" sound of the SNES comes from two things: low quality samples, and the guassian filter. Because of memory limitations (the SNES had a whopping 64KB of sound RAM), samples were often heavily compressed and of very low quality. Making this even worse is the Gaussian filter applied to all sound output from the system, which adds another layer of blur to things.

The SPC700 chip has the ability to "echo" or reverb sounds, which you can hear quite clearly in the piano in Secret of Mana's theme. A lot of composers took advantage of this, resulting in that very distinct sound.

On a different side of things, the Mega Drive generated audio using an FM sound chip, which didn't have to rely on samples. Sounds could be much more raw so to speak, although programming for the Mega Drive's main audio chip is a heck of a lot harder than just plopping a few compressed samples in and calling it a day.
9.    Everybody and their mother agrees that the Sega D Pad is without equal.  The SNES controller is awkward for fighting games using shoulders for Punch/KICK and a proper Sega 6 button.  Nintendo DID create the Modern D-Pad as we know it with their Game and Watch devices and was copied completely by the TG-16 but a proper 8-way pad with perfect feel is what separated Sega and made it superior.  The SNES shoulder buttons are awkward and not natural, this would later be alleviated by the PlayStation with proper triggers which are superior. I used the Mad Catz High Frequency Turbo 6-Button Gamepad Controller for SNES exclusively because it properly puts the shoulder buttons on the face and improves the D-PAD.  This made Super Metroid a much better experience for me as well.  I can’t even use a stock SNES controller any more unless for nostalgic reasons.  If your augment is more buttons = better than the Atari Jaguar controller is the best ever made and we are both wrong.
10.    Nintendo Fan Bois will defend their 1st party games as best of all time and that’s great like I said High Five each other in an echo chamber until your ears bleed.  Another Mario Tennis, another Mario Party, we get it, same story over and over again.  Mario Sunshine was a fantastic risk that changed a lot and I wish they would continue to improve their product instead of going back to the well.
11.    Sega was an UPSTART, it fought from nothing against an Illegal monopoly that punished any game developer that made games for any other systems and by 1994 was LOSING to Sega in sales from 55% to 45% of the market.
12.    SNES for the most part had LOWER Resolution 256×224 (NTSC) vs the Sega’s 320x224 so yes many SNES games were cropped and stretched sometimes hiding integral graphics and platforms.  Game breaking is a stretch but certainly a nuisance and not ideal.  The SNES does not have a 320x224 mode. Neither does the PC Engine/TurboGrafx. The PC Engine has a 352x224 mode, though. The reason those systems rarely use those higher resolutions is likely that the sprite/pixel capacity per line does not increase as the resolution increases, so it you would see more flicker with seemingly less stuff onscreen. And for the SNES, well it has trouble running games at the lowest resolution as it is.
13.    RPM Racing was spit screen.  It also ran at a very slow frame rate and definitely displayed those muffled sound FX and music tracks I was talking about.  This is your “Ace in the Hole”?  LINK: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fg8NhT9q0w .
The downside of double-resolution was the reduction to half-color. Less than half, really, since we're talking bit depth here. Rather than being able to display the usual 8-bit color palette (256 colors) you saw in Super NES games, R.P.M.'s use of hardware graphical Mode 5 (or possibly the very similar Mode 6) traded double pixels for mere 4-bit color (16 colors). You didn't see many games use Mode 5 or Mode 6 outside of menus, and R.P.M. Racing is probably why. It was an object lesson for ambitious Super NES programmers.  This sis why if anything it was used for TEXT only.  VERY limited.
14.    Sega could do interlaced: 320×448, 256×448 (NTSC) or 320×480, 256×480 and was used to great effect for the Sonic 2 2-player split screen with zero lost effects.
15.    Sales? Sega competed against a NES market that was 90%+ when it started and then have 55% by 1994.  1994 Sega made the Jump to 32 bits so again not sure what you are trying to argue here.
16.    The SNES is the slowdown king.  It is now troubling to see you blindly argue against decades of repeated proof starting from the very game magazines during the time to the latest Youtube videos.  
17.    Nothing goes Toe to Toe with Streets of Rage 2, it is Genre Defining.
18.    Streets of Rage 2 would not work on a SNES without significant slowdown, less sprites on screen (Especially 2 player), and inferior music clarity and sound
19.    SNES could never do Xenocrisis due to sprite limit and slowdown.
20.    I see you’ve completely ignored Sega’s effort on PAPRIUM which is wise because again it would be impossible on the SNES.

 
 

 

I'm literally not even going to bother covering all of those points individually. So, here's what I'll do: I'll address the first one alone, and you can [God hope] figure out how the rest would go from there (watch from the 4:03 mark):

 

 

Just in case you didn't get it, that's all 128 sprites being displayed (48 more than the Genesis max of 80), in full screen with no borders, at full speed 60fps with no obvious slowdown, on a stock SNES (no enhancement chips), and still only using the SNES' SlowROM mode, i.e. running at 70% of its full power, and apparently still unoptimized too.

 

The only thing you have to decide here is whether you believe what you're seeing or not, and, if it is legit, whether you want to continue to bury your head in the sand and deny everything due to your Genesis bias or not.

 

Edit: OK, one more "tiny" thing just because it bugs me how ignorant so many people hating on SNES still are: SNES high-res mode is not restricted to "16 colours". It is restricted to 16 colour PER TILE [on one of the two available layers], and 4 colours per tile on the second layer (which RPM doesn't even use), with [as far as I'm aware] the ability to still basically display the full 128 background colours* across both layers ultimately (view at the 6:07 mark):

 

 

In the right hands, SNES could display a game at 512x448 and STILL with way more colours on even just one of the two available background layers than the Genesis is capable of in total for both backgrounds and sprites combined.

 

The fact RPM Racing doesn't take advantage of the full capabilities of the SNES colours in high-res mode is on the developer, not the console.

 

See, waaay more than 16 colours here (that's the original Japanese Secret of Mana title screen, which uses the SNES' high-res mode):

 

 

Continued ignorance is not an excuse.

 

*There's still another 128 available for the sprites on top of that.

Edited April 25, 2022 by Kirk_Johnston

[Lost Monkey]

Amazing!  And it does all that with a slower CPU.

Edited April 25, 2022 by Lost Monkey

[Kirk_Johnston]

10 minutes ago, Lost Monkey said:

Amazing!  And it does all that with a slower CPU.

Exactly.

 

The slower CPU on SNES is only one part of a console with a whole lot of parts, both physical and virtual. It was rarely tapped to reach its true full potential.

 

But I guess I can't blame the Genesis fans for constantly repeating "slow CPU"--it's low hanging fruit.

 

When you don't know any better . . .

Edited April 25, 2022 by Kirk_Johnston

[Kirk_Johnston]

58 minutes ago, Kirk_Johnston said:

I'm literally not even going to bother covering all of those points individually. So, here's what I'll do: I'll address the first one alone, and you can [God hope] figure out how the rest would go from there (watch from the 4:03 mark):

 

 

Just in case you didn't get it, that's all 128 sprites being displayed (48 more than the Genesis max of 80), in full screen with no borders, at full speed 60fps with no obvious slowdown, on a stock SNES (no enhancement chips), and still only using the SNES' SlowROM mode, i.e. running at 70% of its full power, and apparently still unoptimized too.

 

The only thing you have to decide here is whether you believe what you're seeing or not, and, if it is legit, whether you want to continue to bury your head in the sand and deny everything due to your Genesis bias or not.

 

Edit: OK, one more "tiny" thing just because it bugs me how ignorant so many people hating on SNES still are: SNES high-res mode is not restricted to "16 colours". It is restricted to 16 colour PER TILE [on one of the two available layers], and 4 colours per tile on the second layer (which RPM doesn't even use), with [as far as I'm aware] the ability to still basically display the full 128 background colours* across both layers ultimately (view at the 6:07 mark):

 

 

In the right hands, SNES could display a game at 512x448 and STILL with way more colours on even just one of the two available background layers than the Genesis is capable of in total for both backgrounds and sprites combined.

 

The fact RPM Racing doesn't take advantage of the full capabilities of the SNES colours in high-res mode is on the developer, not the console.

 

See, waaay more than 16 colours here (that's the original Japanese Secret of Mana title screen, which uses the SNES' high-res mode):

 

 

Continued ignorance is not an excuse.

 

*There's still another 128 available for the sprites on top of that.

And just to add to my own comment to hammer the point home: People also believe Mode 0 is only capable of "4 colours" per layer due to the fact it can use 4 full and fully overlapping background layers (with up to 1024 unique tiles a pop no less). But, just like the high-res [Mode 5] point I made above, it's 4 colours PER [8x8] TILE, which actually means 32 colours per layer and a total of 128 for all backgrounds combined again (actually 96 in reality because one colour in every palette has to be transparent, and there's 32 4-colour palettes used across all the layers combined in Mode 0), so you can get some pretty nice results in the right hands, like this (and these still aren't even using all the available colours for backgrounds, never mind the 128 colours still available for all the sprites on top of that, which I haven't really used yet):

 

 

 

I'm sure you're starting to get the point.

Edited April 25, 2022 by Kirk_Johnston

[+Stephen]

3 hours ago, Albert said:

It means he can moderate over the entire forum, versus specific forums (there are only a few global moderators).

 

 ..Al

Sorry - I was being sarcastic to the original poster who obviously had no idea who he was arguing (rather rudely) with.

[+Stephen]

2 hours ago, Gemintronic said:

We all know that Club Drive has more polygons then Star Fox could ever dream.  Plus, the best selling dribble ball game based off of stereotypes.  Should we introduce our newest member to the real winner:  Atari Jaguar?

He's certainly got the attitude to fit in   I never knew the SNES was loaded with fumes like our beloved kitty.

[Kirk_Johnston]

7 hours ago, evilevoix said:

and Lightening Force destroys any attempt of the SNES to even compete. 

OK, so, Thunder Force IV (Lightening Force), one of thee most technically impressive Genesis shmups, right.

 

Let's watch from 32:56, shall we (and not see any stuttering or slowdown at all. And what a gorgeous background too):

 

And let's compare, starting from say 16:47;

 

Of course, these times are also good starting points, 12:14 and 19:40 and 22:47 and 47:13 

 

Also, I said R-Type III, not Super R-Type, and there is nowhere near as much obvious slowdown in R-Type III:

 

Also, you complain of slowdown in U.N. Squadron but are clearly unaware it's running on a SNES at only 70% speed (as most shumps on SNES actually are because they're almost all using SlowROM), when it could run at 100% and basically not have any slowdown (and this is even without any further optimization):

 

Now, let's go back and watch some Thunder Force IV footage again:

 

It's not really as perfect as you imagine, even as genuinely dang impressive as it is at times, which I have no problem admitting.

 

Personally though, I'd still much rather play this than Thunder Force IV every time:

 

Edited April 25, 2022 by Kirk_Johnston

[DeathAdderSF]

If there's anything I dislike more in a forum besides neverending posts packed with PooTube video links, it's FULLY QUOTED neverending posts packed with PooTube video links. Hoo boy.

 

Also: How about that Super A'can? Talk about a 16-bit powerhouse, amirite? Not that I don't adore the Genesis or anything, but come on!

[Albert]

3 minutes ago, DeathAdderSF said:

If there's anything I dislike more in a forum besides neverending posts packed with PooTube video links, it's FULLY QUOTED neverending posts packed with PooTube video links. Hoo boy.

This will be fixed when the forum is updated to the latest version of the software.  Long quotes will be truncated, with an option to fully expand the quote if you really want to see it.  Everyone in this thread, stop quoting long posts, if you want to quote something, select just the relevant portion of the post you want to quote and ONLY quote that.  If you select text, the forum will pop up a small "Quote" button, making it very easy to quote small sections of text.

 

Thank you,

 

 ..Al

[Kirk_Johnston]

1 minute ago, Albert said:

If you select text, the forum will pop up a small "Quote" button, making it very easy to quote small sections of text.

Ah, cool. I didn't know I could do that. Cheers.

[+jeremiahjt]

8 minutes ago, Albert said:

If you select text, the forum will pop up a small "Quote" button, making it very easy to quote small sections of text.

I did not know you could do that.

 

10 minutes ago, Albert said:

This will be fixed when the forum is updated to the latest version of the software.

You can even do a multi-quote.

 

16 minutes ago, DeathAdderSF said:

If there's anything I dislike more in a forum besides neverending posts packed with PooTube video links, it's FULLY QUOTED neverending posts packed with PooTube video links. Hoo boy.

And quote different posts too.  Good to know.

[Kirk_Johnston]

1 hour ago, Kirk_Johnston said:

  8 hours ago, evilevoix said:

and Lightening Force destroys any attempt of the SNES to even compete. 

In addition to the Rendering Ranger, which I posted videos of earlier and absolutely competes with Thunder Force IV (and in some ways even surpasses it), this is also pretty impressive: 

 

Edited April 25, 2022 by Kirk_Johnston

[+Defender_2600]

4 hours ago, Kirk_Johnston said:

In the right hands, SNES could display a game at 512x448...

The fact RPM Racing doesn't take advantage of the full capabilities of the SNES colours in high-res mode is on the developer, not the console.

In the entire life of SNES, only one (bad) game has been made with that high resolution, and so you think that the most important development teams have never understood the potential of that mode for text, including Nintendo itself... Forget the interlaced 512 × 448 resolution and the progressive 512 × 224 resolution used only for text strips. All SNES games run at 256 x 224 and you can well recognize the fat pixels and the playing field horizontally cut by a portion when compared to Sega Genesis versions which run at 320 x 240.

 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Kirk_Johnston said:

Just in case you didn't get it, that's all 128 sprites being displayed (48 more than the Genesis max of 80)

For people who do not know, you are omitting a fundamental data, the size of the sprites: SNES 128 sprites 16 x 16 (8-bit system size), Genesis 80 sprites but 32 x 32. So on SNES how many sprites 32 x 32 ? Only 32 sprites on SNES versus 80 sprites on Genesis (!). And how many sprite tiles? SNES 512 vs Genesis 1280 (!). And the comparison of the technical specifications could go on and on...

 

 

4 hours ago, Kirk_Johnston said:

Continued ignorance is not an excuse.

Oh yeah, here are a couple of very informative videos, personally I think it is more than enough for a better understanding of both systems. I will not add more.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kirk_Johnston]

1 hour ago, Defender_2600 said:

In the entire life of SNES, only one (bad) game has been made with that high resolution, and so you think that the most important development teams have never understood the potential of that mode for text, including Nintendo itself... Forget the interlaced 512 × 448 resolution and the progressive 512 × 224 resolution used only for text strips. All SNES games run at 256 x 224 and you can well recognize the fat pixels and the playing field horizontally cut by a portion when compared to Sega Genesis versions which run at 320 x 240.

 

 

 

 

For people who do not know, you are omitting a fundamental data, the size of the sprites: SNES 128 sprites 16 x 16 (8-bit system size), Genesis 80 sprites but 32 x 32. So on SNES how many sprites 32 x 32 ? Only 32 sprites on SNES versus 80 sprites on Genesis (!). And how many sprite tiles? SNES 512 vs Genesis 1280 (!). And the comparison of the technical specifications could go on and on...

 

 

Oh yeah, here are a couple of very informative videos, personally I think it is more than enough for a better understanding of both systems. I will not add more.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Whether it's a single bad game or a hundred good games, the fact is the SNES can do games at 512x448--and the Genesis can't--fact. And, given we've already established that a single game out of the over 1700 SNES titles ran in high-res during gameplay, yes, patently, most development teams never understood the potential of that mode, since the vast majority of them simply ignored it completely. One of them, however, proved it matter of fact can be used for full games, and even they didn't come anywhere near close to pushing it to its limit.

 

This exact same logic applies to Mode 0 too. And I've already personally demonstrated it's possible to do much more with that than pretty much any developer managed on the SNES.

 

Almost "all SNES games run at 256x224"--we've literally just covered a game that matter of fact ran at a much higher resolution than that, for God's sake.

 

The SNES' pixels are only "fat" if some person is so ignorant that they don't know you can run SNES games in perfect pixel mode, even though it's literally a built-in option on 3DS, SNES Classic Mini, Switch and basically every emulator. So, let's look at Toy Story on SNES again (even though it's an example of a game where the Genesis was patently the lead platform and wasn't truly developed to best suit the SNES specs at all), and this time without the stretched pixels, shall we (although a low-res clip):

 

 

And, look, I can randomly just pick any SNES game and display it in pixel perfect more so it has pixels that are not only not stretched in the slightest but are pin sharp on modern displays too (as viewed through a system like the SNES Mini):

 

 

Look, another:

 

 

Are you getting the point yet?

 

But you are correct that many games that appear on both consoles feature less pixels horizontally in the SNES version--almost exclusively in those titles that were clearly made with Genesis being the lead platform. It's exactly the same as when you see a game appear on both consoles and yet the Genesis version runs in 256x224 mode because the SNES was clearly the lead platform:

 

 

Vs

 

 

But I grant you that more often it's the SNES version of the same game that's cropped rather than the Genesis version being 256x224 (or, ironically, stretched to 320 from 256 in a few cases).

 

And you are correct, the Genesis can push around more 32x32 sprites than the SNES, although you're wrong/lying about the amounts: It's 80 32x32 for Genesis and 69 32x32 for SNES. It still doesn't change the fact that SNES can display 128 16x16 spires vs the Genesis 80 16x16 sprites, which is all I said.

 

I concede the Genesis has more sprite tiles to play with, hence Genesis games often have a little more animation in the sprites. Just like the SNES has many areas where it is 100% superior to the Genesis in some spec (colours, background layers, transparency, built-in Mode 7, window/shape masking, HDMA, max 8x8-16x16 sprites, max resolution, column scrolling granularity, work RAM, etc), this is one of the many times where Genesis is 100% superior to the SNES in a particular spec.

 

As I said previously, both machines have their technical strengths and weakness. And you're really not going to prove any overall winner based on tech specs alone. This is why I never said the SNES won outright based on tech specs; I said it won overall based on everything taken into account (of which some of the tech specs are obviously part of that): Games library (far more games), superior controller (demonstrably with more inputs and more versatility), more games that still appear in nearly every Top 100 Games of All Time lists, higher total console sales (by 20 million using the only official figures out there), more million-selling games, even more sales of the recent SNES Mini vs Genesis Mini (by over a factor of 5-1), etc.

 

Don't make me laugh, posting any videos from VCDECIDE, one of the most patently biased Genesis fanboys on YouTube. If you check both those videos you posted and indeed most of their other comparisons, you will find plenty of incorrect details--a mistake or intentional--as well as clearly creating the videos to always favour the Genesis in how they are displayed and what is being shown from each console and so on (such as ALWAYS stretching SNES games). How about the fact it doesn't even list that the SNES can do column scrolling at all, despite the fact it can actually do superior column scrolling to Genesis. Or let me give you another example, where the second video lists the expansion [enhancement] chips in carts for both Genesis and SNES, where it has one for Genesis and two for SNES, when there's actually FAR more than two enhancement chips for SNES, which were collectively used in over 70 games: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Super_NES_enhancement_chips

 

See, look, I don't need to cover anything up, and nothing I have stated about the SNES is a lie. Neither have I denied any of Genesis' particular strengths (or weaknesses). I'm simply making the point of showing how much false information about the SNES is out there and how much total Genesis bias and unwarranted hatred towards the SNES there is in modern times. And I'm showing lots of examples to prove how many of the claims about SNES coming from the haters are just plain lies or misguided at best. Also, I'm showing a whole lot of ways the SNES is superior to the Genesis, and with plenty of concrete examples (just as Genesis fans have done and are doing from their side constantly too).

 

I still say that overall the SNES is the superior console to the Genesis when ALL aspects of the console experience are taken into account.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Kirk_Johnston
Sorry I keep editing, but I'm just cleaning spelling errors and stuff

[joeatari1]

I have a Wii.

[+Defender_2600]

3 hours ago, Kirk_Johnston said:

The SNES' pixels are only "fat" if some person is so ignorant that they don't know you can run SNES games in perfect pixel mode, even though it's literally a built-in option on 3DS, SNES Classic Mini, Switch and basically every emulator.

In truth it seems that "some person is so ignorant that they don't know" that when you are comparing the _pixel aspect ratio_ of * real hardware * you are referring to the * real * pixel aspect ratio. "Are you getting the point yet? "

 

3 hours ago, Kirk_Johnston said:

And you are correct, the Genesis can push around more 32x32 sprites than the SNES, although you're wrong/lying about the amounts: It's 80 32x32 for Genesis and 69 32x32 for SNES.

No, I was referring to _unique sprites_ on screen: Genesis 80 sprites 32 × 32, SNES 32 sprites 32 × 32.... if you want to continue, Genesis 20 sprites 64 × 64, SNES 8 sprites (64 × 64), etc...

 

3 hours ago, Kirk_Johnston said:

I concede the Genesis has more sprite tiles to play with, hence Genesis games often have a little more animation in the sprites. Just like the SNES has many areas where it is 100% superior to the Genesis in some spec (colours, background layers, transparency, built-in Mode 7, inputs on controller, etc), this is one of the many times where Genesis is 100% superior to the SNES in a particular spec.

Oh yeah, " Just like the SNES Genesis has many areas where it is 100% superior to the Genesis SNES in some spec...this is one of the many times where some time Genesis SNES is 100% superior to the SNES Genesis in a particular spec."

 

3 hours ago, Kirk_Johnston said:

Don't make me laugh, posting any videos from VCDECIDE, one of the most patently biased Genesis fanboys on YouTube. If you check both those videos you posted and indeed most of their other comparisons, you will find plenty of incorrect details--a mistake or intentional--as well as clearly creating the videos to always favour the Genesis in how they are displayed and what is being shown from each console and so on.

Funny, you yourself shared videos from VCDECIDE. Anyway, those who love retrogaming necessarily love both systems, but remaining on the comparison of the technical specs I am attaching the sources of Sega Retro (cited by VCDECIDE) so that you can better argue (and with equally authoritative sources) where Sega Retro is disclosing technical specs " plenty of incorrect details - a mistake or intentional-- ", and maybe contact them to make the right corrections. In the meantime, you'll have a lot to read before you find any specs where SNES is "superior to the Genesis".

 

Said this, I'm absolutely not interested in changing your opinion, but speaking of technical specs it is right to specify the sources for the people who read. Closed topic for me.

 

Sources:

https://segaretro.org/Sega_Mega_Drive/Hardware_comparison#Vs._SNES

 

Edited April 26, 2022 by Defender_2600