Synthpopalooza Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 That's awesome - looks as good as a Spectrum512 image on the ST! True, but this is an interlace. Well... Implementing interlace for RC should not be hard... It would be great if somebody could point me some good reading about PAL and NTSC color mixing for interlace I know an Atari programmer named DearHorse who was writing AtariTools, a PC development utility which is also to feature implementation of my ICE character modes (Super IRG and related). I think he has an algorithm which could calculate the nearest 2 component Atari colors for any given color in a picture. His website is http://www.ataritools.fr.gd/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thealgorithm Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 If 4 colors can be displayed perscanline then would it not just be all combo's and error difference measured. for example on the c64 it would be something similar to color 0,1,2,3, color 0,1,2,4.... color 0,1,2,f... color 0,1,3,4.. ensuring that there are no repeated colors then code can be generated after based on the colors rendered. ofcourse on the atari this would take longer due to more 120 colors instead of 16 I dont know anything about how the atari generates its images however. perhaps previous colors have influence on next line etc. But even in interlaced format using combinations of multicolor/hires and all possible combo's, i was able to convert the image via pure brute force and luma masking etc in less than 10 minutes. See attached That's awesome - looks as good as a Spectrum512 image on the ST! Interlace with tremendous sunburn.... The original image as below.. Another rendered example below using updated conversion routine.. (interlaced) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 (edited) Interlace with tremendous sunburn.... Typical response. Care to point to any photo-realistic colour images on the A8 in 320*200? Typical response.... comparing final stuff with work in progress... Imagine this one in interlace.... emkay-demo100.xex C64 needs interlace for more colours. A8 needs interlace for more details. Edited July 25, 2012 by emkay 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthpopalooza Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Which has led me to a thought ... could Rastaconverter be improved, by adding inline GTIA mode changes to Graphics 10 or 9? You'd lose on the resolution some, but in some areas of the picture maybe it's not as big an issue? Maybe even introduce 16 level shading in some parts of the picture? It could be done but I doubt it will look good without interlace. I have done those tests in the past: http://atarionline.p...nID=1514&page=1 http://atarionline.p...tachmentID=1552 I think I did download those tests over on atarionline.pl Maybe Graphics 10 might work though ,,, it's paletted, uses all the PF and PM registers, you could shift into it for areas of the picture not so dependent on resolution, and it would enable more colors per scanline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilmenit Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Well, i should have put quotes around 'optimum' What i meant was to select 4 colors which give the 'least' error overall in that scanline (ofcourse this is not the best approach) but a quick method of preperation Then those colors are to be chosen by color quantization. It is already implemented in RastaConverter (options /init=smart and /init=less). Starting the optimization process with it results in hard to escape local optimum and while for low colour pictures it works well, for complex pictures it is better not to use it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilmenit Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Interlace with tremendous sunburn.... I recommend to add emkay to the list of ignored users. It will save your nerves :-) 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thealgorithm Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Interlace with tremendous sunburn.... Typical response. Care to point to any photo-realistic colour images on the A8 in 320*200? Typical response.... comparing final stuff with work in progress... Imagine this one in interlace.... emkay-demo100.xex C64 needs interlace for more colours. A8 needs interlace for more details. Yes C64 requires interlace for more colors (although some additional mixes can be presented non-interlaced via pal blending) Can the A8 display 320 hires pixels horizontally in interlace however? Not sure if one of the frames can be shifted 1 pixel hires increment. if it cant, it will always be x2 horizontal res maximum. Can you provide me with the original of that picture you put. I just want to see how it looks non-interlaced on the c64 via my converter. :-) I am not trying to have a grudge match etc. C64 is great, so is Atari, each have their strengths and weaknesses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 The picture is rendered with the latest version, to 570M evals. emkay-PDv5-570.xex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thealgorithm Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Well, i should have put quotes around 'optimum' What i meant was to select 4 colors which give the 'least' error overall in that scanline (ofcourse this is not the best approach) but a quick method of preperation Then those colors are to be chosen by color quantization. It is already implemented in RastaConverter (options /init=smart and /init=less). Starting the optimization process with it results in hard to escape local optimum and while for low colour pictures it works well, for complex pictures it is better not to use it. Great. Yes the local optimum is an issue, but nice to have the feature as you mentioned above regardless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thealgorithm Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 The picture is rendered with the latest version, to 570M evals. emkay-PDv5-570.xex I remember this on the C64, can you post the C64 version of this image :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Philsan Posted July 25, 2012 Author Share Posted July 25, 2012 thealgorithm, read first post please. I opened this thread to let people post their best RastaConverter images. There is another thread for discussing bugs/improvements ("Quantizator"). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthpopalooza Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 (edited) In two frame interlace, there are three ways to do interlace at 320 pixels: Super 0 (Super 8.) shifts 709 and 710 (background) every scanline. You basically get 4 colors, and the chroma of 709 (graphics) and 710 (background are identical) DIN mode (Graphics 8 + 15) enables 8 colors, every two pixels in mode 8 contains the same color modifier information from Graphics 15. If you do this in text mode (like in my DIN ICE mode) this becomes 10 colors because you can inverse characters and get PF3. PC0 mode enables 18 colors at 320 resolution, but at a 4x1 ratio instead of 2x1 like in DIN, Here's an example PC0 pic from this thead: http://www.atariage....00#entry2555819 In some of these modes you maybe could improve the picture using PM overlays. Edited July 25, 2012 by Synthpopalooza Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 (edited) Also... both made with v5. The light were shifted to a brown, so the red makes more sense. emkay-spidiv5-550.xex And Spidi in a different picture... in the dark ... emkay-spinnev5-860.xex The main "problem" with V5 is that it isn't possible anymore to make needed changes. While the old version ran sometimes in unsolvable solutions, it was possible to give the donkey a kick for walking into a better direction. The V5 gives better results on many pictures, but also runs into unsolvable solutions, without the possiblity of kicking the donkey. Edited July 25, 2012 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 28M on this picture. emkay-output-28M.xex What's missing: real calculations on the A8's palette. Picture isn't preprocessed for optimized palette usage. And so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 28M on this picture. emkay-output-28M.xex What's missing: real calculations on the A8's palette. Picture isn't preprocessed for optimized palette usage. And so on. Looks like the suntan lotion got streaky in an effort to reduce sunburn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthpopalooza Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Mine are getting better! For all you Blake's 7 fans: synthpopalooza-liberator.xex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+JAC! Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Can the A8 display 320 hires pixels horizontally in interlace however? As opposed to C64, the native horizontal resolution of the A8 is 160 colors clocks (multicolor pixel). As a consequence there is scroll by a single pixel means scrolling by a multicolor pixel. [sigh] The hires mode is a "delay hack" in the GTIA which double the frequency internally to split the pixel only and leaves you with a single color in 2 luminnances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thealgorithm Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Can the A8 display 320 hires pixels horizontally in interlace however? As opposed to C64, the native horizontal resolution of the A8 is 160 colors clocks (multicolor pixel). As a consequence there is scroll by a single pixel means scrolling by a multicolor pixel. [sigh] The hires mode is a "delay hack" in the GTIA which double the frequency internally to split the pixel only and leaves you with a single color in 2 luminnances. Thats a pity. Having scroll offset inbetween would have given dramatic increase in quality when flicking the two fields together (although color mixing would still be a good plus) Synthpopalooza had mentioned some other possibilities of hires in the previous posts however, even though they are rather limiting, perhaps can be put to good use Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 28M on this picture. emkay-output-28M.xex What's missing: real calculations on the A8's palette. Picture isn't preprocessed for optimized palette usage. And so on. Looks like the suntan lotion got streaky in an effort to reduce sunburn Because the picture -the original- is preprocessed to fit better to the converted result. Exactly this one would almost look like that: ... when using Interlace .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvas Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 One from me ... JVAS_HUNGARY.xex 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 a magyar Atari user? I only know 3... the guys from HARD. Svevasz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthpopalooza Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 (edited) Came up with a couple more: synthpopalooza - stream.xex The same picture, in MIN (Graphics 9+12, 16 shades interlace): stream.atr moonlake.xex And again, in MIN: moonlake.atr Edited July 27, 2012 by Synthpopalooza Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthpopalooza Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 At 18 million evaluatons: synthpopalooza-erasure-chorus.xex Best album Erasure ever released! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthpopalooza Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Thats a pity. Having scroll offset inbetween would have given dramatic increase in quality when flicking the two fields together (although color mixing would still be a good plus) Synthpopalooza had mentioned some other possibilities of hires in the previous posts however, even though they are rather limiting, perhaps can be put to good use I've posted 4 interlace examples of your picture in this thread: http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/188370-doing-pictures-using-super-irg-2-and-other-ice-modes/page__st__100?do=findComment&comment=2566746 One of these is in DIN mode, which is 320 pixels at 10 colors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvas Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 (edited) a magyar Atari user? I only know 3... the guys from HARD. Svevasz. Szevasz a magyar Atari user? I only know 3... the guys from HARD. Svevasz. Szevasz too The HARD guys were not just simple Atari users, like me ... Though I haven't knew them personally nor met them. Edited July 27, 2012 by jvas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Like us on Facebook
Follow us on Twitter
AtariAge on Instagram
Watch us on YouTube
Chat on Discord
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.