rush6432 Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 I am so shocked by all this I am sitting here with tears in my eyes. Please reconsider, I believe you will still sell every cartridge of the batch you have already ordered the parts for. Ane probably still sell at least some CDs. Every group is different I know but look at Reboot. They still sold out of Superfly and Beebris even with both freely available on thier web site for download. I am pretty sure I bought both after the ROM was released. I do not wish to be one of the few to get a chance to play Blackout. BTW I have cart 9/23 and while no way to prove it, I definitely had nothing to do with it. Maybe someonecan elaborate, but from my understanding of RUSH6432 message that the ROM may not have come from a cart at all and maybe not even someone in the JAG community. While it is still a very bad situation no matter what, if my understanding is correct then I will feel a little bit better about the JAG community. I said i wasnt going to get into detail or bring in the drama because we all know this community has plenty of it and i DO NOT want to contriube to it. This obviously goes against what i just said as im opening my mouth and telling a short bit of the story... Here is the short run-down... (mind you not everything) I've found a rootkit running on my jag dev only linux box here.. Over the past few months i had seen odd things in my code, i had fixed spacing on it so it was perfect so that it was more easy on the eyes when scrolling through source and reading or editing, only to find odd spacing added hours after i had fixed things, or comments deleted completely that i JUST put in next to code i had written. i was very perplexed and though its possble something is off with saving or the program i am using... The box i use to develop has nothing more than what i have source code wise and a net connection and an IM client to communicate with shawn and no one else pretty much. I DONT browse web pages on this box as i know the implications that can happen with malware/malicious php/java/python/perl scripts. It was running regular Clam AV anti-virus. Weather or not the source is out there i dont know.... The rom file was sent to my own personal gmail address from a randomly generated spam gmail email address. Believe me ive checked the headers for an ip address or a way to trace it back but have found nothing usefull as gmail doesnt let you have the senders IP from full email headers.... and if someone went through this trouble im sure it went through a proxy. Mind you i'm not new to investigating or backtracking things like this, its part of my dayjob technically... Ive checked the rom file or a serial key (yes we did serialize them) and the key has been stripped and replaced with junk. Please dont ask me to post any details further here as im washing my hands completely of this situation and walking away as im very disgusted. We've pulled our sites, changed passwords on everything we own, deleted any sort of contact due to this stuff. At this point i dont know what has or hasnt been compromised unfortunately... I really appreciate the support guys but i think at this point we are more dissapointed and discouraged and throwing in the towel. im not willing to continue with shennanigans like this.... We may come back some other time but right now i just dont see it in the cards. We will try to liquidate what parts we had ordered of the game and possibly push it on ebay at the same price but im torn at this point if i even want to still make it available.... Thank you all for the kind words and concern and support. The problem is that you're exactly right. i have no way to prove if it was a dumped copy from the cart with a changed serial or if it was a compiled copy i had on my dev box with a serial key changed. all i know is that what was sent to me is not one of the 23 that was sent out.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atari_Owl Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 (edited) Unfortunately, not surprised at what goes on. You are seriously not surprised to find that a rogue computer program/hacker targeted a Jaguar developer to obtain a ROM of a game with an imminent free release? Srsly? You must really get bored at the cinema if that didn't raise an eyebrow at least, it blew my f***ing mind. Teh Jag 'Community' is N***ing Futs You hadnt noticed? Editted again to tone the language even further down Edited July 21, 2012 by Atari_Owl 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rush6432 Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Unfortunately, not surprised at what goes on. You are seriously not surprised to find that a rogue computer program/hacker targeted a Jaguar developer to obtain a ROM of a game with an imminent free release? Srsly? You must really get bored at the cinema if that didn't raise an eyebrow at least, it blew my f***ing mind. seriously.... the sarcasm isnt hidden much there.... try harder next time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syntexerror Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Sad that one person has to ruin it for the whole jag community.I was looking so forward to buying this game on the second run.I hope you do reconsider this i know your pissed but think of all the time stormworks put into this project to give us Jag fans a great game.Not to mention all future idea's you guys had i know someone dumping the rom is terrible but as said in earlier posts you still have alot of good jag fans out here that are ready and willing to buy this game.I as a Jag fan and collector wouldn't benefit from a rom dump or copy of the game to play on a emu or otherwise i want the original.I just cant believe all of us who didn't get the game on the first run will have to suffer for the one ass who dumped the rom i really hope something works out and you reconsider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wozencl Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 I am so shocked by all this I am sitting here with tears in my eyes. Seriously, what is up with people today? Am I the only one who thinks this thing is being blown WAAAAAAAY out of proportion? Just to re-iterate what others have said ignore the idiots and carry on coding because you enjoy it. If you no longer enjoy it then I can understand but quitting because of this ROM malarkey is silly IMO. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamus Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 This isn't one a**hole ruining it for everyone, this is SWI taking their ball and going home in spite of the fact that people were (and probably still *are*) lined up to throw some cash their way. It makes no sense whatsoever. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh3-rg Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 (edited) Unfortunately, not surprised at what goes on. You are seriously not surprised to find that a rogue computer program/hacker targeted a Jaguar developer to obtain a ROM of a game with an imminent free release? Srsly? You must really get bored at the cinema if that didn't raise an eyebrow at least, it blew my f***ing mind. seriously.... the sarcasm isnt hidden much there.... try harder next time... Yeah, but it wasn't directed to you, Rush, but to Owl... even an old cynic like me found it really shocking. Edited July 21, 2012 by sh3-rg 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sauron Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Ok everyone, let's not get out of hand here. seriously.... the sarcasm isnt hidden much there.... try harder next time... Don't read too much into what he said. I think most everyone who had been commenting on this wants to help you get to the bottom of it. Frankly, it f***ing sucks that you're giving up on it all, and it's probably turning us all a bit overzealous in our reactions, myself included. Many of us know how long you've been devving on the Jag, and hate to see it all come crashing down like this. I'm sorry if anything I've said has offended you, I don't think any of us here are trying to do that. I think we all need to back off of it, let things cool down, and let Jeff and Shawn come back in to it in their own time, if that's their choice. We all need to remember that they don't owe us anything, including as much as what they've said about the matter. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atari_Owl Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 (edited) Jeff & Shawn Seriously, i think we've all thought about going many times. Theres SO MUCH BS in the 'community' always has been, plainly always will be. Frankly you never know where its coming from next which is why its so tempting to assume the worst everywhere. More often than not... you'll be right I understand it's often its just the thought of the work that has been put in so far going to waste that keeps one hanging around. Its YOUR decision guys And whichever way you decide, i for one won't blame you. Of course i'd be very glad if you stick around but as i say i understand if you dont want to. Don't let anybody make you feel bad for whatever decision you make, its YOUR decision and no one else's.. you owe nothing.(while i was typing this i realise Sauron said the same) Edited July 21, 2012 by Atari_Owl 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh3-rg Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Ok everyone, let's not get out of hand here. seriously.... the sarcasm isnt hidden much there.... try harder next time... Don't read too much into what he said. I think most everyone who had been commenting on this wants to help you get to the bottom of it. Frankly, it f***ing sucks that you're giving up on it all, and it's probably turning us all a bit overzealous in our reactions, myself included. Many of us know how long you've been devving on the Jag, and hate to see it all come crashing down like this. I'm sorry if anything I've said has offended you, I don't think any of us here are trying to do that. I think we all need to back off of it, let things cool down, and let Jeff and Shawn come back in to it in their own time, if that's their choice. We all need to remember that they don't owe us anything, including as much as what they've said about the matter. hey, I've been very positive in this thred, he misunderstood what I meant and took it personally. It was a reaction to Owl not being shocked at what's gone on, nothing to do with Rush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
108 Stars Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 I am not an active Jaguar-user, and maybe I am not the right person to talk, but... I understand that you are pissed/disappointed. But you can be sure of one thing: I know that the Jaguar fans are really dedicated, and honestly... a ROM dump available doesn't change anything for them. I'd go as far as to say that not a single Jaguar-fan who was interested in the game in the first place would reconsider not buying the cart because of a ROM dump. That's not how it works with such homebrews. Every single person caring about your games will still buy them on cart or CD for their collection, a ROM image is meaningless for them. Not even worth considering. All people who would release a ROM of your game would or download and play it are a completely different crowd from the people you made this game for. Even as an outsider I can see and tell you that this is something you could ignore (not counting any emotional issues with the event) and have no negative effect for the sales and appreciation of the fine physical copies you produce. Just my two cents, the decision is up to you of course; but I think it's never a good idea to react so extremely without calming down a bit and thinking it over first. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh3-rg Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 a ROM dump available There is no ROM dump available, but your sentiments are spot on! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jag_Slave Posted July 21, 2012 Author Share Posted July 21, 2012 Just wait for a bit - it will start floating around soon I'm sure. This whole thing is starting to drive a wedge between Jeff and I, as well as just leaving a sour taste in our mouth. Everything is on ice now with no real plan of action. We can only apologize or explain ourselves and the situation so many times. It is what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrant Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 To sum it up for the non-technical readers (because I'm seeing a lot of confusion in this thread). Rush initially said that a rom file had been found dumped. What this means is that someone had taken one of the 23 cartridges sold, and saved the contents to a file for use with emulators, skunkboards, etc. Then his later post said his development machine had been hacked, and for some time had noticed odd changes in source code, etc. While it's possible this was just an entirely random hacking (machines get compromised all the time, mostly in order to send out emails selling viagra), the implication here is that someone else in the community had managed to target that specific computer. While it is possible to do this with fairly limited skill (you don't need to know how to write your own rootkit in order to download one and use it), it's still a technical challenge and quite hard to believe (but, as many people have said, the Jag "scene" is full of enough drama and hate for it to be possible). The final straw was the emailing of a rom file to Rush. All the released cartridges had a unique serial number in them, to prevent this kind of thing, but the serial in this version was not one of those. That implies that whoever sent it had to know where in the code the serial was stored. I can see three ways to find that out. Either they dumped one of the 23 cartridges, disassembled the code and looked through it for references to the serial (this is time consuming and potentially very difficult if the serial was well hidden), they might have dumped two of the 23 cartridges and looked for differences between them, or they had access to the source code and compiled it with a new serial (this would imply they were the hacker who had access to the development pc). Please correct me if I'm wrong on any of this btw. I haven't spoken to either of them, I'm just trying to explain some of the more technical points from this thread, for the fans who are less technical. There are a couple of questions that immediately jump to my mind: 1) Was the machine really hacked, and was it by a Jaguar "fan"? I really don't mean any offence, and I accept that it is possible, but this seems so horrible and so unlikely as to set off alarm bells. I'm a firm believer in Hanlon's Razor and worry that malice is being assumed here. Even if the machine was rooted (hacked) which is quite possible, especially if it was such an old setup, I find it hard to believe it was a deliberate attack by a Jaguar "fan" and not just someone trying to sell viagra or create a botnet. 2) Was the rom that was emailed sent by the same person who hacked the dev machine? Pretty logical question. There are some malicious elements in the Jaguar scene, we've known this for years. It's not too tricky for someone to get two independent rom dumps (by buying two cartridges, or by two users buying one each and comparing rom dumps) and deduce the serial location by comparing files. 3) Why on earth would they email it? The only reasons I can see are that they either wanted to produce such a ragequit, or they were trying to (legitimately or maliciously) whistlyblow / point the finger at someone who they claimed as the dumper. Having said all that, let me join in the chorus calling for cool heads and for you not to let them win. A ragequit is never the answer, and while I can understand the frustration of it all, you do need to find a way to rise above it. I don't think walking away (after all the work that has gone into such an excellent looking release) is the right way to do that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh3-rg Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 (edited) Just wait for a bit - it will start floating around soon I'm sure. This whole thing is starting to drive a wedge between Jeff and I, as well as just leaving a sour taste in our mouth. Everything is on ice now with no real plan of action. We can only apologize or explain ourselves and the situation so many times. It is what it is. So you think this was a plan to make you quit, and as a result you decided to ... quit? Rush - you mentioned you work in some kind of IT security role - have you discounted the possibility that this could be the work of one of your colleagues winding you up? Or are you adamant that this it the work of someone out to take your code/builds? Just a thought that crossed my mind that seemed more likely than Jaguar hacktivists... EDIT: sorry, "starting to drive a wedge, I read "started", ignore my first point. While I'm here... how about this. You insist the ROM will start floating around. Your plan was always to release it anyway. So... beat them at their own game. Release it yourselves. Post it to this thread & draw a line under it and tell the hacker F*** O** in the most positive way this community can possibly do. Edited July 21, 2012 by sh3-rg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sauron Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 FFS, people, I think there's been more than enough questioning in here. Everyone let it go. As has been stated ad nauseam, they don't owe anyone an explanation for anything. Let things cool down, and let them come back and answer question, IF THEY WISH. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrant Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 As has been stated ad nauseam, they don't owe anyone an explanation for anything. This is very true, but it is understandable that people are concerned, very confused, and wish to see a resolution to this situation that keeps them in the community and working, happily, towards new releases. I see lots of concern and encouragement, much less demanding explanations (and I wasn't demanding, just summing up the most relevant questions as I see them). 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isgoed Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Hmm.. was waiting for the cd-release This is a tragic affaire, as the StormWorks team made such an enthusiastic impression! I can't help it, but this whole story sounds weird though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 haha reading this post I got this crazy mental image of sh3 reading the story of what happened and his eyes getting real wide and his brains blowing out the back of his head onto the wall behind him. Not that I think it funny if his brains actually got blown out but just in a cartoony, wile e. coyote context it was oh nm. Unfortunately, not surprised at what goes on. You are seriously not surprised to find that a rogue computer program/hacker targeted a Jaguar developer to obtain a ROM of a game with an imminent free release? Srsly? You must really get bored at the cinema if that didn't raise an eyebrow at least, it blew my f***ing mind. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh3-rg Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 haha reading this post I got this crazy mental image of sh3 reading the story of what happened and his eyes getting real wide and his brains blowing out the back of his head onto the wall behind him. Not that I think it funny if his brains actually got blown out but just in a cartoony, wile e. coyote context it was oh nm. You wouldn't be the first to wish that of me, you won't be the last \o/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
averybluemonkey Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 This is absolutely disgusting on the part of whoever uploaded the ROM, they really are a pathetic individual to disrespect the hard work of people who are trying to create something new. From the looks of that video on youtube the level of attention to detail in this release showed a real degree of care, all the little things like the menu transitions for example show a proper game developers mindset well in advance of most homebrew developers. I've spent the last year and a half working on my own game for a different platform and frankly I'd be heartbroken if this happened to me. I'm sad I now won't get to play this as I love puzzle games and had been looking forward to it since the announcement but I also dislike the way some are criticising the developers for choosing to step back from everything. Creating a piece of work like this takes a huge amount of effort and time, it's like working two jobs and can be very emotionally taxing. This isn't about people winning or losing versus the pirate, it's about a human emotional response when someone takes something away from you that you've slaved over. I have a skunkboard and had been hoping next year to start porting some of my bits over, but when you see this kind of stuff happen, it really makes you think twice. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austin Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Teh Jag 'Community' is N***ing Futs I usually say the Neo-Geo community is the worst, but happenings like with this Blackout situation have me quickly withdrawing those sentiments. There are some seriously batshit-crazy individuals in the Jaguar community that seem to have a penchant for ruining things for everybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh3-rg Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 This is absolutely disgusting on the part of whoever uploaded the ROM Nobody uploaded a ROM. Read the thread all the way through. Jag Slave seems convinced it will surface at some point. It does not seem likely that SW will be offering it for themselves, at least for the time being. From the looks of that video on youtube the level of attention to detail in this release showed a real degree of care The video might show you a level of attention to detail and care that impresses you, but what it does not show how pissed off Rush has become with the Jaguar's PAL/NTSC issues and what appears likely to be a TOM Rev 1.0 vs Tom 1.1 incompatibility that might well affect all the code he's been working on, not just this game (we'll know better soon once Gaztee's copy of the game is tested on all my Jaguars in the coming days). I'm sad I now won't get to play this as I love puzzle games and had been looking forward to it since the announcement According to posts on the German NexGam forum, you will still get your chance to buy this game - someone close to StormWorks there states that the game will be sold on eBay soon and that the parts for the second run have begun to arrive. Jag Slave even hinted to this in very small text shortly after Rush posted the news in this thread. Whether the auctions will be buy-it-now or open bidding, you'll have to wait and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the.golden.ax Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I'd hate to even consider the implications of open bidding shortly after this hullabaloo. Maybe I'll just get another used Game.com feeling bad over this situation doesn't make me want to keep visiting this thread, or wishing I could have had the game. I hope these talented programmers come to their senses. If they release it again I'll pick it up, but I'm not getting in to a bid war over it. That would just be the poop sauce on this shiitake mushroom cake. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrant Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 That would just be the poop sauce on this shiitake mushroom cake. It's sad that I can only like this once. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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