Metropolis and Gotham

[+Cafeman]

Hey, post any memories or thoughts about MSR or the entire Project Gotham series!

 

For the past month or so I've been playing Dreamcast Metropolis Street Racer It was a later DC release so I never bought it back in the day; and only this year have I been able to catch up and try it out. It's an arcade racer with just enough realistic physics thrown in to give it lots of depth. Of course, MSR is now dated visually compared to newer racers for sure, but it is pretty awesome for a DC-era racer. I doubt there was any game at that time which had the attention to detail in the modeling of cities.

 

I've played up to the 4th chapter so far and I've had enough of it for now. Chapter one was the hardest for me, probably because I was still learning. I just couldn't get enough Kudos until finally I earned a Joker (use a Joker on an event that you are good at to double the Kudos you earn) and used it. But the events seemed to get easier across chapters 2 and 3. Maybe because I was using faster cars and learning how to play.

 

The one-on-one races seem the most challenging to me. Speaking of these, you can handicap the rival driver for a second, two seconds or more, even though you'll earn less rewards if so. I needed to do this to win at first and I found it funny that when you squeal your tires out of the starting line, the other guy who has to sit & wait honks his horn at you!

 

The visuals are a bit dark at night and the frame rate does chug with 5 cars and misty fog races, and some of the songs are horrible, and these are my only gripes. The racing game structure of racing yourself against a goal/time limit, such as the Hot Laps (beat a goal of XX seconds within 3 laps), mixed with real races against one or a fleet of other cars, mixed with the need to earn Kudos, is a fresh way to handle a racer. Tokyo, London, and San Francisco are the cities. The 'radio stations' are often unbearable to me so I picked a couple nice dance beat songs and always use those. I will say this too - I absolutely cannot win or race well unless I use a first-person-perspective (bumper cam) camera!

 

MSR is a very polished game and I may return to it, I certainly have enjoyed it first few chapters. But I want to move on, hence my next post.

[+Cafeman]

So, I went to The Exchange and found Project Gotham Racing for Xbox. (I've read that PGR2 is the preferred game, but it wasn't available). I paid $1.00 for this game.

 

Last night , starting around 10PM when I got home, I had to (a) find my Xbox in ze closet o'doom; (b) figure out how best to hook it up to the 42" plasma best (I had to use composite video - which doesn't look as bad as I expected - but I'm also using the optical cable for great sound). I don't know if I've played Xbox on a flatscreen yet .. so I went into the xbox options and found there is a widescreen mode. Wow, what a difference!

 

Anyway, the graphical differences from playing Dreamcast MSR to Xbox PGR are phenomenal. The same courses are in both games (with an extra city in PGR - New York). It is such a treat racing on the tracks which I know well but with the Xbox visuals. Wow! As far a racing feel, there is a big difference in feel, I was fishtailing around curves more, but its not super-sensitive, just different. Again, the graphical improvement after being used to MSR is actually stunning.

 

I haven't played to much yet, only Introduction and Amateur of what I assume is the first chapter. More to follow. *

 

* Note - I also picked up Xbox360 PGR4. I'm skipping PGR3 (X360) and PGR2 (Xbox). After I play a bunch of PGR I'll switch to PGR4 to compare too!

 

I assume there are some of you here who have put many hours into this series. I'm a latercomer to it but would like to read your thoughts and comparisons.

[Reaperman]

Hmmm. Well, thanks to this topic I finally see what they did with their titles. Clever, but not a choice that I would have made.

 

I bought it for DC back in the day, but didn't care for it and dropped it a few hours in. The game's graphics were hyped to heaven in the magazines, but turned out kind of average. I had high expectations then, but now I know that overhyped + launch delay is a very bad sign.

 

On top of that, I really disliked their kudos system. It encouraged me to drive as poorly as possible, where other games did the reverse.

'Kudos' were really all MSR had to differentiate it from the other racing games at the time, and with those working against it (IMO) it didn't stack up to the top tier of dreamcast racers.

 

It didn't cost me quite full price (IIRC), but I do remember that I bought it new, and that it wasn't cheap.

 

I own at least one PGR game, but have not played those.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Reaperman

[+Cafeman]

In MSR, you can abuse the kudos system on hot laps races. Say you need to beat 0:33 seconds. On lap one, beat it. Then on lap 2 or 3, drive around hitting the hand brake around certain curves, then turn around on-track and do it again, for like 5 minutes, to boost your kudos at the end. It's a bit boring, true, but its also a way to get past the kudos requirements early-on and you only need to do it once for that event.

 

Hmmm. Well, thanks to this topic I finally see what they did with their titles.

 

heh, a quote comes to mind: "huh. I didn't get the connection!"

[DesertJets]

When I bought my DC a couple of months ago I picked up MSR with it as well. My gripes with it are about the same. The kudos system makes the game too hard to progress in. Doing the hot lap trick to earn enough kudos to progress shows that as it stands in MSR the kudos system, at least initially, was not well thought out. Bombing around the same track time and time again is fun enough for a perfectionist like me but to make it through an entire chapter and still be way away from the next chapter is annoying to say the least. The night lighting is another huge gripe of mine. It is just way too dark and makes many tracks unplayable (I have the same issue in Sega GT as well). At this point I finished the first chapter and unlocked the next two cars (which suck) -- I'll eventually come back and play more though, just a little disappointed.

 

But contrary to the OP I do like the music, I like the fact that it is all original and parody at that.

 

 

Now I played a lot of PGR when the XBox first came out (old college roommate had a DC and then an XBox). Between PGR, Halo and getting into grad school I didn't do much school work my final semester of my senior year. I really think that PGR fixed a lot of what was wrong with MSR. The kudos system made more sense and didn't become a huge barrier to progression. You could advance and earn new cars (but you needed certain Kudos levels to unlock certain cars) without having to do donuts on a hot lap for 5 minutes. I eventually got bored, looked up cheat codes and unlocked everything. I liked just driving around really fast in the F50 on the open street courses.

[Atariboy]

Played through Dirt 3 recently and was surprised to find it reminded me of this series at several points. The development team must have some former Bizarre Creations members on the team (Seems I read they hired some of their employees when they went under). Their challenges with a medal system reminded me a ton of this series with things like timed runs through cone gates.

 

* Note - I also picked up Xbox360 PGR4. I'm skipping PGR3 (X360) and PGR2 (Xbox). After I play a bunch of PGR I'll switch to PGR4 to compare too!

 

You're skipping the best of the five games. Project Gotham Racing 2 is easily the pinnacle of the series. I think I was past 80 hours on the in-game timer the last time I fired it up which is an extraordinary amount of time for me to spend in a single console game. And most of the annoying aspects of the Kudos system are gone here. You can easily play it and not even think about Kudos and just concentrate on things like the timer in timed runs and racing other cars.

 

And it was so popular and rereleased so heavily that there are a huge number of copies out there and the game has been dirt cheap as a result for years now. You should have no trouble locating a copy for well under $5.

 

I highly suggest not skipping it (PGR3 on the other hand I think you can get away with skipping, I've still only spent about 3 hours in it despite it being one of my first 360 games back in 2006... it just didn't click at all for me and was a big disappointment coming off of PGR2).

 

I assume there are some of you here who have put many hours into this series. I'm a latercomer to it but would like to read your thoughts and comparisons.

 

I love this series (Which surprised the heck out of me, the entire Kudos deal was a big turn-off when I'd read about MSR before playing it since I think racing should be all about your finishing position). PGR2 particularly is responsible for me becoming a fan of Xbox Live thanks to an excellent leaderboard system, online multiplayer, and two excellent DLC expansions that added the cities of Long Beach and Paris to the game (I'm sure glad those two expansions can still be played offline). Give it an HD facelift and I think it could easily pass as a 2012 release since it was so good and ahead of its time.

 

I still think Metropolis Street Racer looks nice on my monitor when my Dreamcast is hooked up to it via VGA. These games are aging well I think which is nice to see after many racers from the previous console generation aged so poorly. I just hope Microsoft revives it someday so we can get new entries. It will be tough with Bizarre Creations being gone, but I think the series has been dormant long enough and that there are enough fond memories of it that a revival even by a different developer would stand a good chance of success if done well.

 

Hope it hasn't joined RalliSport Challenge, which accounts for two of my other favorite original Xbox games, in being dead and buried. Incidently, I think RalliSport Challenge 2 on the Xbox isn't far behind this game in my list of favorite Xbox games and would recommend that one as well if you don't already have it. RalliSport Challenge 2, PGR2, and Midway Arcade Treasures 2 (For Timber ) were my first three games for this console back in 2004 or so and I loved all three.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Atariboy

[+Cafeman]

Dirt 3's development team must have some former Bizarre Creations members on the team. Their challenges with a medal system reminded me a lot of this series with things like cone challenges.

 

I never played any of the Dirt games. Which would you recommend at this point? As info, in the past I enjoyed Sega Rally (Saturn), Sega Rally 2 (DC but to a lesser degree), and Rallisport Challenge 2 (Xbox) which was FANTASTIC. I sold it when I got layed off one year, but I had played it many many hours.

 

You're skipping the best of the five games. Project Gotham Racing 2 is easily the pinnacle of the series.

 

See, that's the kind of stuff I want to read. It was all a crap-shoot for me buying these - I bought what I found. PGR2 wasn't there. But I'll keep looking for it now that you've so strongly endorsed it. Mind you, there's no more Xbox live for that game , I'll be playing it offline 1-player only.

[Atariboy]

I imagine that well over 80% of my time was in the single player mode, so while it doesn't shine as brightly with Xbox Live support being gone, there's still an excellent game there. Long Beach and Paris being missing isn't too bad for you either since those tracks aren't incorporated into career mode at all (You could only use them for time trials, single races, or race them online). And they also came out with some free DLC cars when they'd patch the game which also isn't too big of a loss since there's something like 80 or 90 vehicles already in the game as it is. And if you ever get into the modding scene, getting that content will be easy to do if you want to experience those two cities and the add-on cars.

 

As for Dirt, my favorite was easily the first game. It was the closest to a traditional rally racer and had lots of rally stages. Rally was demphasized with Dirt 2 to try to give it wider appeal and there's tons of side stuff like the X-Games in there with little actual rally racing. And Dirt 3 is basically Dirt 2 with a bit more rally content added to it and those platinum challenges I mentioned earlier.

 

If you want fully fleshed out online multiplayer though, it has to be either Dirt 2 or Dirt 3. The original's multiplayer just had you racing for time and it wasn't very exciting (Even though it's faithful to actual rallying). And I think Dirt is now offline for the PS3 (And maybe even Dirt 2) so keep that in mind if that's your console of choice and you think you'd want to give online multiplayer a try (I played through all three on the 360 and they're all still online). I think I give Dirt 2 the nod for online multiplayer over Dirt 3.

 

Overall though, I'd rate them as Dirt > Dirt 3 > Dirt 2.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Atariboy

[+Cafeman]

Currently I don't care about online. I let my Xbox live gold run out because I wasn't using it. So it sounds like good ole Dirt (probably quite cheap too! a plus!) is for me. Is there a big graphical difference between Dirt and the other two?

[Atariboy]

Not much of a difference at all. They shared the same graphics engine (Updated of course for each game) and had very similar graphical styles. If I showed you something similar like a forest stage in each game I think you'd have a tough time placing the three in the order of their release. It remains a very pretty game to this day and there aren't many racing games that have surpassed it in the graphics department.

 

The original did have the occasional frame rate hiccup in the non rally stages and some tearing that seems to have been eradicated for the most part in Dirt 2 and Dirt 3, but nothing that detracted significantly from the game.

 

Close to having the full slate of achievements in all three if that's any indication of what I think of them (Finished Dirt 1 and just a single multiplayer achievement left in both Dirt 2 and Dirt 3 to get eventually).

 

Grid's another good one with the same engine even though I'm not nearly as fond of it as the Dirt series (If Dirt is the successor to the Colin McRae series, Grid's the successor to the old TOCA games from Codemasters). Had Mario Kart style AI, some bugs, and some physics issues in some car classes that drove me batty that detracted from it.

 

Edit - If you ever get Dirt 3 though, look for the complete edition of it. Has the DLC on disc which isn't anything special for the most part other than about half a dozen rally stages set in the mountains around Monte Carlo in the winter. They're some of the best tracks in the game and they're incorporated into the single player career mode as well so you'll be guaranteed to use them.

Edited July 25, 2012 by Atariboy

[+Cafeman]

I found PGR2 at another store. It cost 250% more than PGR1 ($2.50 compared to $1.00) so it better have 250% better graphics and gameplay or I'm taking it back and getting my money back!

 

(side note: I also bought the wonderfully horrible "Aquaman" for Xbox - I just had to try it out , and I actually found Sega CD Flashback:Quest for Identity that day too, which I have never seen at an Exchange or similar store before so I bought it ($11.00 for that).

 

I haven't had much time but I did play PGR2 for a few hours and I do enjoy it more than the first. Kudos are no longer a problem , I'm playing so-so in skill yet still making progress. I've googled around to see the consensus of this game over the first, but mostly what I find are boring "GT4 vs PGR2" discussions. Again, its remarkable the difference between MSR on DC and PGR2 on Xbox - much more detail , lighting, and smoother driving. I'm not knocking the DC. I would have been astounded over PGR2 had I bought it new back in the day.

 

I still have not put in PGR4 into my X360 yet. I imagine it is a quantum leap of visual improvement.

 

PGR2:

[Asaki]

Maybe I just suck at racing games, but I could not figure out MSR for the life of me. I spent maybe an hour or more before I could finally beat the stupid mandatory training mission, and then lost interest immediately.

 

I'd rather just play something less realistic, like Outrun 2 or Carmageddon.

[Atariboy]

If you have an Xbox, you also should give PGR2 a try.

 

It's still solidly in the arcade racing camp and don't let the real life cars and real cities fool you into thinking otherwise. The Xbox Controller S is better suited for racing games than the Dreamcast pad (Never owned one of the original controllers so I don't know if that's also the case with the "Duke"). And most of all, the game is extremely polished and the many rough edges that MSR had have all been smoothed out here.

 

About the only thing I didn't like was the soundtrack (Give me real videogame music instead of the cheapest licensed pop music they can round up anyday). Yet the custom soundtrack feature easily fixed that issue and I routinely raced to things like Magical Sound Shower or my favorite oldies from the 60's while playing it.

 

And kudos is secondary here now. It's still there everywhere you look, but it just benefits the experience isn't of detracting from it. The actual racing takes center stage as it should instead of almost being of secondary importance as it was in MSR. You can even easily ignore Kudos throughout the game and play it as a traditional racer if you'd like (Which I must admit is the route I largely took).

 

And with the variable difficulty settings, the game can be as easy or hard as you want it. If one is an arcade racing game fan and owns an Xbox, they owe it to themselves to have this game, RalliSport Challenge 2, and Outrun 2006 Coast 2 Coast in their collection.

 

So I'd not be shocked to find that you enjoyed this game despite your feelings about Metropolis Street Racer. It's worth the $2.50 risk that Cafeman took at least.

 

And it runs on the 360 as well if that's the only option you have (Although the frame rate is a bit inconsistent, there are some graphical glitches on the menus, and the game doesn't look nearly as pretty upscaled on a HDTV as it does on something like a standard definition Trinitron with the original hardware; tons of jaggies and such become evident).

 

I found PGR2 at another store. It cost 250% more than PGR1 ($2.50 compared to $1.00) so it better have 250% better graphics and gameplay or I'm taking it back and getting my money back!

 

Be sure to visit the garage and find the Geometry Wars coinop. It's where it all started right there and the game still holds up extremely well today despite not having all the flash that the XBLA sequels had.

 

And there was something strangely compelling about the showroom there. I wandered around that for more hours than I care to admit and I'm not even a car nut. Worth at least a quick visit and a few test drives out on the test track.

 

Too bad so many people consider old racing games worthless and that there's so many licenses here. I for one would love to see RalliSport Challenge 2 and PGR2 get the HD treatment and be bundled together like Sony's doing to so many of their PS2 classics.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Atariboy

[+Cafeman]

The Xbox Controller S is better suited for racing games than the Dreamcast pad

 

Agreed. I had troubles playing MSR with the DC analog wand - my thumb kept slipping off. And the triggers hurt my hands after a while.

 

And it runs on the 360 as well if that's the only option you have (Although the frame rate is a bit inconsistent, there are some graphical glitches on the menus, and the game doesn't look nearly as pretty upscaled on a HDTV as it does on something like a standard definition Trinitron with the original hardware; tons of jaggies and such become evident).

 

Oh yeah. I'll have to try it in the 360 later tonight. I kind of dismissed that option already. From my experience with other Xbox-to-360 emulated racers, the overall graphics take a hit somehow - Outrun 2 for example just didn't seem right and missed frames. Given that the X360's fan is so annoyingly loud and the Xbox1 is totally silent, I prefer playing Xbox games on Xbox hardware.

 

Another things I have noticed with Xbox1 and surround sound using optical cable - it doesn't work well with my Dolby 6.1 setup (ie, I have a center rear speaker). When I turn off the back center speaker to force Dolby 5.1, all of a sudden the Xbox games' sound is much more full and alive.

[Asaki]

It's still solidly in the arcade racing camp and don't let the real life cars and real cities fool you into thinking otherwise.

 

For being an "arcade" racer, it feels pretty realistic to me =) I'm used to games where being fast isn't too important, as long as you've got a good aim with a turtle shell, or a couple of mushrooms to boost you past the finish line. I have no idea how to be fast in games like MSR. Like I said, I kept doing the first level over and over again, every ten minutes or so I'd be able to get maybe 0.1 seconds closer to the required time, which is pretty discouraging when your best effort is ten seconds too slow...not something I'd expect from THE FIRST LEVEL OF THE GAME @_@

 

I remember having a similar (but much more short-lived) experience with the PSX game Driver.

 

The Xbox Controller S is better suited for racing games than the Dreamcast pad (Never owned one of the original controllers so I don't know if that's also the case with the "Duke").

 

I didn't mind the Dreamcast controller (though it's a lot more sensitive than a steering wheel), but I try not to use the S controller anymore, now that I've got a Logitech Precision =)

 

I just wish I could find the wired version of it, or at least concrete proof that the wired version actually does exist...

 

And yes, have a (modded) XBox, not a 360.

 

And kudos is secondary here now.

 

I didn't get far enough into the game for Kudos to be an issue, so I'll have to take your word for it.

 

Be sure to visit the garage and find the Geometry Wars coinop. It's where it all started right there and the game still holds up extremely well today despite not having all the flash that the XBLA sequels had.

 

Geometry Wars?? I'm sold.

[BydoEmpire]

I'm not a huge fan of racers in general, but MSR on the Dreamcast is my favorite of all time (right up there with Enduro). The soundtrack was amazing - the radio stations were super cool. Loved the variety of cars and courses throughout real-world cities. It looked gorgeous. It controlled great. It had just the right difficulty progression, and the perfect balance between arcade and sim (leaning more arcadey, certainly, but it's as far as it can go and still be fun for me). The game had so much... atmosphere.

 

Never got into the Project Gotham games. I played the first one on Xbox and didn't like it nearly as much as MSR. Not sure why, but it is what it is. Haven't tried any of them other than a brief rental since.

Edited July 30, 2012 by BydoEmpire

[Atariboy]

One detail I liked with MSR's radio stations was how they'd go out when you'd be driving through something like a tunnel. Nice attention to a little detail that not many developers would think of.

 

One thing worth mentioning about PGR2 and the 360 is that the custom soundtrack feature is dead. To have music playing, you have to start your tracks in the 360's dashboard before firing up the game. Then you can race with your MP3's playing in the background after muting the game's in-game music so it doesn't interfere.

 

Worth mentioning if anyone stumbles across this and wants to play something like PGR or Forza on their 360 while listening to MP3's. And as long as the in-game music can be muted, it also allows you to play your own music in games that didn't have a custom soundtrack feature like the original PGR.

 

Thankfully my original Xbox is still sitting here all hooked up so other than to occasionally satisfy my curiousity, I just play original Xbox games on the original hardware (Other than some Xbox Originals downloads off the marketplace and Atari Anthology which runs perfect and also looks great thanks to being one of the few HD Xbox releases)

Edited July 31, 2012 by Atariboy

[+Cafeman]

I've had more time to play PGR2 (Xbox) and PGR4 (X360). PGR4 has motorcycles, to my surprise. The horizon tilting reminds me of seeing that effect on SEGA Saturn Manx TT - pretty cool, but too difficult to win (for me) using that view. Playing as a bike, against cars, results in an easier win sometimes, so that screws up the balance a bit, but its still fun. Overall I can't tell much difference between these two games, other than the obvious graphical improvements of the PGR4 being on newer hardware. There are so many newer cities that I found it more difficult to directly compare the same tracks as I did going from MSR to PGR1.

 

I was playing Outrun 2 on Xbox and loving it all over again. Then I popped in PGR2 ... going from the super colorful arcade-style 60fps of Outrun2 to the more realistic and 30fps of PGR2 is initially a put-off, but then my eyes adjusted to the difference. PGR2 is pushing a lot more detail and physics of course, compared to Outrun2 - both fun games but in a totally different style of course.

 

Not much else to say. I actually liked the classical music tracks of PGR4 - Ride of the Valkyries, Flight of the Bumblebee fit pretty well with racing at 100 MPH!

[Atariboy]

One reason PGR2 probably was such a favorite for myself and many others was the simple fact we played it when it was new before things like PGR4 were released.

 

I suspect playing it alongside PGR4 probably dulls the experience a bit, but I'm glad to hear that it sounds like you're at least getting your $2.50 out of it.