Raspberry pi

[Manic1975]

Have sameone hear about Raspberry pi? Or used it? It mini computer with ARM procesor on 700 Mhz and 512 Mb memory. For OS it use Linux and it can be used for emulating old computers. I was wondering if it could emulate TI 99/4a. I found this when I was searching for something to use it in my MAME cabinet.

Have sameone try it and what is your opinion about it?

[KirkDCO]

There this: http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2012/07/27/raspberry-pi-and-mess-multi-emulator-super-system-nes-gamegear-genesis-piday-raspberrypi-raspberry_pi/

 

They have a MESS install running on Raspberry Pi. There's a MAME

version, also: http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/tag/mame

 

I was thinking of getting a Raspberry Pi specifically to run MESS/MAME

and TI emulation.

[Retrospect]

Have sameone hear about Raspberry pi? Or used it? It mini computer with ARM procesor on 700 Mhz and 512 Mb memory. For OS it use Linux and it can be used for emulating old computers. I was wondering if it could emulate TI 99/4a. I found this when I was searching for something to use it in my MAME cabinet.

Have sameone try it and what is your opinion about it?

 

I know a lad who has had nothing but trouble with his PI and got quite frustrated with it all, that said , they're not everyones cup of tea most people don't realise how far apart from Windows it all is. He had trouble with getting the right driver to work on it for his video out to television. It does seem like a nifty little machine though, just a bit underpowered really. Check it out on youtube, there is a MAME emulator running on a PI on there. I'll tell you now though, Linux is a right pain in the arse to get some emulators to work. If I were you I would get a dual core laptop with a VGA cable and stick it in the bottom of the arcade cabinet, you'd be much better off. That's just my opinion, though

[rocky007]

i've both Rasberry and Mini Android PC. Personally, i prefer the Android, more confortable to use, more user friendly.. but i have to say that i'm not a linux fan

[Asmusr]

I'm thinking about building a hydrid TI-99 with CPU emulation and hardware graphics card using a Raspberry Pi, an Adafruit Prototyping Pi Plate Kit <http://adafruit.com/products/801>, a F18A video board and a modified version of MESS that replaces the 9918A emulation with something that can talk to the F18A. I have no idea if this would be possible - just came up with the idea today - but I think it would be fun to do and a great platform for experimenting with the new F18A features. Any thoughts?

[+Vorticon]

I have the Raspberry Pi Model 2, and it's really a great little computer for hobbyists and DIY'ers. It is a bit underpowered, but it's really not meant to be a high end computer, although it's still quite decent. It has a GUI or you can use it in shell mode. It comes with many languages compilers and interpreters, although Python seems to be the language of choice for it, and is very easy to learn. I have mine hooked up to my home network wirelessly, and I telnet into it from wherever I am for programming etc... In that configuration, you don't even need a monitor or a keyboard once the initial set up is done.

The best part of the Rpi however is the GPIO port, which allows you to control and monitor the outside world including robotics and the like. JohnnyBritish had suggested using it to emulate a disk drive for the CC40 computer, and I might just give this project a try.

There is tons of documentation available online, but I suggest a book by Simon Monk called Programming The Raspberry Pi: Getting Started with Python as a great introduction. It will teach you the rudiments of Python very quickly including GUI programming and then go on to a couple of demonstration hardware projects using the GPIO port, all in 159 pages. From there, you will have all you need to explore further and learn more about this device.

As Linus Torvalds said, this is a computer you can afford to make mistakes on. After all, you cannot go wrong with $35

[+mizapf]

FWIW, I just purchased a Raspberry PI Model 2 last week, and it's definitely an impressive piece of hardware. As soon as I find out how to compile MAME/MESS for this platform I'll surely try how far we can get ... although I tend to believe it won't deliver enough processing power.

[matthew180]

Bah. Grr. Blah. Hmph. I have too many opinions on this top, I should just stay out of it...

 

Nah, what's the fun in that?

 

Standard Disclaimer: If you are feeling offended by any of this, you are reading it wrong. My opinions are mine.

 

Underpowered?? 700MHz with 512MB of RAM is underpowered? For what? Sure, if you start with a full multi-tasking graphics intensive GUI-based OS that you expect to watch a video on *and* run some emulator, then yes, I supposed the Rpi might have some problems. It is frustrating to listen to the expectations of people these days related to hardware and software, and especially cost.

 

Another similar frustration for me is how people throw a battle axe at something simple, like using an Arduino to blink an LED or some non-sense like that. Riiiight, you need a 16MHz microcontroller to blink an LED... Grrr.

 

As for the Rpi and emulators, the biggest problem with software emulators is that most of them are written on a multi-tasking OS platform. Sorry, but you don't need a 2GHz quad-core system to emulate a 3MHz 16-bit system. The overhead of the OS and all the other garbage running on the system is what chews up a ton of the processing power. A multi-tasking OS gives tasks access to the CPU in bursts, which sucks for emulation that needs consistent allocations. Also, tasks are usually sliced up in millisecond chunks and emulators need microsecond slices.

 

Also, emulator writers, typically, take a software-only perspective to emulation instead of emulating the hardware. Of course there are exceptions, and I'm not picking on anyone or any emulators here (especially MESS or Classic99), I'm simply commenting on what I have observed after looking at a lot of different emulators (especially MAME). The problem is, authors of new emulators tend to look at previous emulators, and thus a lot of ideas and ways of doing things, good and bad, continue to get propagated.

 

I think the Rpi would be a great platform for highly accurate emulators, but you have to kick the OS to the curb and write on the hardware itself. The Rpi makes a great platform for this kind of emulation since you are only an SD-card swap away from running a different emulator. A thin support library to the hardware layers is all you would need to be very productive. GCC, Linux, GUI, blah, blah, blah, whatever. Don't need it.

 

[+Vorticon]

Sorry, but I was comparing the Rpi to the TI 99/4A when I said it was a bit underpowered

Matt, what is considered underpowered today is in context to ... wait for it ... TODAY, and with today's public expectations of what a computer should be able to do, yes the Rpi is definitely underpowered because it IS expected to run an emulator, play a 1080p movie full screen AND execute Crysis 3 at the highest settings simultaneously and without a hiccup!

In 1980, its power would have been unfathomable, and in 2000 it would still have been absolutely awesome. Today, it is underpowered, and tomorrow practically pathetic,,,

Fame is fleeting in the computing world *sigh*

That said, for what the Rpi was designed for, it definitely is an amazing and inexpensive machine.

Edited April 30, 2013 by Vorticon

[Opry99er]

Maybe, Vorticon, but it's a credit-card sized computer for under $75. =)

 

I think it's an amazing machine, but I don't need more computer hobbies. =)

[JonnyBritish]

For more on RaspberryPi read the monthly ish magazine

http://www.themagpi.com

 

Also you can boot RISCOS 5 on it then run BBC Basic 5 which has a powerful built in assembler. From that there is a book on programming the RaspberryPi with ARM assembler by booting into RISCOS and writing your assembler code under BBC Basic.

 

Most recently in the MagPi magazine there is an article about creating objects in MineCraft by creating python programs.

 

Fun stuff if you have the time.

 

I will get mine connected to my new 27 inch touch monitor :-)

 

Crazy to think I have all this state of the art hardware and yet will be firing up TurboForth under emulation and trying my hand at TMS9900 coding using the TurboForth Assembler.

 

I do quite like the idea though of creating a python app with the Pi and pretending to be a storage device for the CC-40

 

Vorticon - their is a Pi hacker group in Chicago -

 

http://pumpingstationone.org/

[JonnyBritish]

Forgot...over in the UK they are doing a series of books to get kids into programming in Python

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Coding-Club-Level-Python-Building/dp/1107666872/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1367285332&sr=8-12&keywords=python

[Shift838]

I know there are a couple of users on the TI-994a group on yahoo that purchased the raspberry pi. I heard they were working on getting Mess to work to emulaye the Ti and Geneve 9640. You may want to post to find out if they got it working.

[Asmusr]

Bah. Grr. Blah. Hmph. I have too many opinions on this top, I should just stay out of it...

 

I would appreciate your opinion about whether my hybrid computer idea could be possible:

 

I'm thinking about building a hydrid TI-99 with CPU emulation and hardware graphics card using a Raspberry Pi, an Adafruit Prototyping Pi Plate Kit <http://adafruit.com/products/801>, a F18A video board and a modified version of MESS that replaces the 9918A emulation with something that can talk to the F18A. I have no idea if this would be possible - just came up with the idea today - but I think it would be fun to do and a great platform for experimenting with the new F18A features. Any thoughts?

 

Thanks, Rasmus

[marc.hull]

Bah. Grr. Blah. Hmph. I have too many opinions on this top, I should just stay out of it...

 

Nah, what's the fun in that?

 

Standard Disclaimer: If you are feeling offended by any of this, you are reading it wrong. My opinions are mine.

 

Underpowered?? 700MHz with 512MB of RAM is underpowered? For what? Sure, if you start with a full multi-tasking graphics intensive GUI-based OS that you expect to watch a video on *and* run some emulator, then yes, I supposed the Rpi might have some problems. It is frustrating to listen to the expectations of people these days related to hardware and software, and especially cost.

 

Another similar frustration for me is how people throw a battle axe at something simple, like using an Arduino to blink an LED or some non-sense like that. Riiiight, you need a 16MHz microcontroller to blink an LED... Grrr.

 

As for the Rpi and emulators, the biggest problem with software emulators is that most of them are written on a multi-tasking OS platform. Sorry, but you don't need a 2GHz quad-core system to emulate a 3MHz 16-bit system. The overhead of the OS and all the other garbage running on the system is what chews up a ton of the processing power. A multi-tasking OS gives tasks access to the CPU in bursts, which sucks for emulation that needs consistent allocations. Also, tasks are usually sliced up in millisecond chunks and emulators need microsecond slices.

 

Also, emulator writers, typically, take a software-only perspective to emulation instead of emulating the hardware. Of course there are exceptions, and I'm not picking on anyone or any emulators here (especially MESS or Classic99), I'm simply commenting on what I have observed after looking at a lot of different emulators (especially MAME). The problem is, authors of new emulators tend to look at previous emulators, and thus a lot of ideas and ways of doing things, good and bad, continue to get propagated.

 

I think the Rpi would be a great platform for highly accurate emulators, but you have to kick the OS to the curb and write on the hardware itself. The Rpi makes a great platform for this kind of emulation since you are only an SD-card swap away from running a different emulator. A thin support library to the hardware layers is all you would need to be very productive. GCC, Linux, GUI, blah, blah, blah, whatever. Don't need it.

 

Says the guy emulating a 10 Mhz VDP with a 100 Mhz programmable gate array using a compiled language ? Maybe the reason people use the big tools is the same reason you didn't create the F18A using transistors. Of course that's my opinion only so if your offended you must be reading this wrong.

[Bones-69]

Hey Manic, not really on topic - But I am interested in your Mame cabinet as I also built one. Care to post a link or picture of your creation?

[slinkeey]

Says the guy emulating a 10 Mhz VDP with a 100 Mhz programmable gate...

 

Is it stilled called emulating when you actually have control of the logic gates?

 

Doesn't the extra horsepower leave some room to add features? I think it comes down to it probably didn't cost him much more to go with more horsepower than what was needed. He had some room to toss in a GPU for example.

Edited April 30, 2013 by slinkeey

[matthew180]

Says the guy emulating

 

It is not emulation. Emulation is something you do in software. Is your SID board "emulation"?

 

a 10 Mhz VDP with a 100 Mhz programmable gate array

 

To implement the original functionality I don't need more than 10MHz. But the F18A does more than the original functionality and the enhancements needed some extra time.

 

using a compiled language ?

 

HDLs are not compiled.

 

Maybe the reason people use the big tools is the same reason you didn't create the F18A using transistors.

 

I did use transistors, or at least gates at the flip-flop level. I'd never fault anyone for using assembly vs machine code though.

 

Of course that's my opinion only so if your offended you must be reading this wrong.

 

I guess I read it wrong. I'll read it again... Didn't help, still sounds like sarcasm.

 

[matthew180]

 

I would appreciate your opinion about whether my hybrid computer idea could be possible:

 

Thanks, Rasmus

 

It sounds pretty cool, but I'm not sure I understand how you are thinking about putting all the pieces together. It sounds like you are talking about having multiple video subsystems?

 

I have been wanting to couple the F18A with something like an Arduino as the host system to see if there is any interest in that area, but spare time is coming up short lately. The F18A could also be used stand-alone since the GPU is triggered at power up and is self-contained. However, it is not very convenient by itself since you would need a JTAG programming cable to make code updates.

 

[matthew180]

Sorry, but I was comparing the Rpi to the TI 99/4A when I said it was a bit underpowered

 

Haha, I understand now. :-)

 

Matt, what is considered underpowered today is in context to ... wait for it ... TODAY, and with today's public expectations of what a computer should be able to do,

 

Yeah, I know. But coming from a limited platform like the 99/4A and other classic systems, it is easier to see the waste going on, especially in software development. You can do a *lot* with 3MHz, so watching a 2GHz system struggle just blows me away. However, the main goals of the Rpi were to get "kids" (they think of kids as college age) into programming (based on an interview I read with one of the main Rpi founders). I don't think the design goals were focused on using it for a media center system or to replace a desktop.

 

yes the Rpi is definitely underpowered because it IS expected to run an emulator, play a 1080p movie full screen AND execute Crysis 3 at the highest settings simultaneously and without a hiccup!

 

It can run Crysis?? WoooHooo! Hehe. The fact that is can play a movie is great, but *expecting* it to be "all that" seems a little misguided to me.

 

That said, for what the Rpi was designed for, it definitely is an amazing and inexpensive machine.

 

I think so too. I also think you can get a lot more out of it by dumping the overhead of the OS. Especially in the area of getting well-running and accurate emulators on the device.

 

[slinkeey]

I have been wanting to couple the F18A with something like an Arduino as the host system to see if there is any interest in that area, but spare time is coming up short lately.

 

There are some home built computers that rely on the TMS9918. You could target these folks.. Then again, you never really pushed it like a salesperson. You kept it as a hobby.

 

My intent is to eventually get my hands on one, but I want to get a NanoPEB first so that I can save my stuff amnd trasfer between my PC. I refuse to use a tape recorder. I hate cassette tapes.

Edited April 30, 2013 by slinkeey

[JamesD]

There are a lot of other ARM/Android devices to choose from if you just want to emulate old computers.

By the time you buy a case, power supply, etc... the Pi isn't as attractive, especially since many of the competitors are much faster and should be able to emulate more games/computers.

The advantage of the Pi is that it has connections for additional hardware for special projects.

 

MAME does have an Android port but I haven't used it. I haven't seen an Android port of MESS.

You can install Linux on Android devices, just remember that such devices require a little more work to do the install than on the Pi.

Edited April 30, 2013 by JamesD

[+Vorticon]

I refuse to use a tape recorder. I hate cassette tapes.

 

But you are missing on such a nostalgic and hair pulling experience! My very first computing exposure was to the tune of the TI tape recorder beeping and squealing while loading a program You cannot possibly compare this to the brief flashing of an LED while loading software from a CF card... It's just wrong.

[marc.hull]

It is not emulation. Emulation is something you do in software. Is your SID board "emulation"?

 

Cool how did they do the hardware level GROM emulation in software ? That would neat to know so enlighten me please. As far as the SID card goes... On one level the SID board is all TTL and LSI so no, but on another it does mimick a C64 capabilities so yes.... Confusing....Doesn't really matter. I don't particularly care if it is called emulation or not .

 

This is interesting though, according to Wikipedia....

"hardware emulation is the process of imitating the behavior of one or more pieces of hardware (typically a system under design) with another piece of hardware, typically a special purpose emulation system. The emulation model is usually based on a hardware description language (e.g. Verilog) source code, which is compiled into the format used by emulation system. Sounds like emulation but what's in a name ?

 

I guess I did say Emulation and not "Hardware Emulation" so I'll correct that right now. It's hardware Emulation.

 

 

To implement the original functionality I don't need more than 10MHz. But the F18A does more than the original functionality and the enhancements needed some extra time.

 

OK....

An emulator needing a faster system because the computer is doing other stuff in addition to running the emu = bad.

The F18A Needing a faster system because it needs to do other things in addition to it's original purpose = good.

That's somewhat confusing.....

 

HDLs are not compiled.

 

My bad, wrong termanology. The code is synthesised right ? Semantics again I guess. Even the WIKI article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_emulation) called it compiled so if they got it wrong then surely you can forgive my transgression.

 

I did use transistors, or at least gates at the flip-flop level. I'd never fault anyone for using assembly vs machine code though.

 

How did you solder them inside that chip ?? (that's a joke Matt don't twist off.) You probably won't laugh but I got a kick out of it.

 

 

I guess I read it wrong. I'll read it again... Didn't help, still sounds like sarcasm.

 

Perhaps this will help --> Standard Disclaimer: If you are feeling offended by any of this, you are reading it wrong. My opinions are mine. <--

See... you can't be offended. I wrote the standard disclaimer !

[Asmusr]

It sounds pretty cool, but I'm not sure I understand how you are thinking about putting all the pieces together. It sounds like you are talking about having multiple video subsystems?

 

Well, it's probably just a crazy idea, but I would like to program demos or games that use the F18A features, but the lack of emulator support means you have to do this on the TI console, which I just don't have the patience for. It's also frustrating when graphics that look great in an emulator flickers when you test it on real hardware because the video signal timing is not accurately emulated.

 

So my idea was to build a modern development platform using a real F18A with the rest of the TI emulated. An RPi seems to be suitable for this kind of project because it's easy to connect stuff to, and I happened to buy one already for no other reason than I like the idea behind it.

 

There would be two video outputs - one from the TI emulation/F18A and one from the RPi. I would also want to use the RPi as programming environment but that depends on the availability of a TMS9900 assembler for Linux (?). Anyway, it would be much faster to transfer files from a PC to an RPi than to a real TI (takes me a few minutes each time using CFHDX). I would expect that the programming in MESS to replace the TMS9918 emulation with a hardware interface to be relatively easy, but I may be wrong.

 

The thing I don't have any clue about is what it would take to connect the F18A to the Raspberry Pi GPIO. There seems to be enough pins (17) but I'm not sure if you could connect it directly or you would need something in between, and perhaps a voltage regulator? I would probably blow up both boards within 5 mins...

 

So why don't I just make demos for RPi instead of for the TI? Well, it's too powerful for me :-), I like having to squeeze the hardware to its limits to obtain the desired results. For me the TI-99/F18A combination gives me just about the right set of possibilities.