Trouble with Apple IIc and joystick control

[Charlie_]

I have three working Apple IIc computers but one of them acts weird with the joystick input.

 

In the game Tumble Bugs I can't move down. I tried Gremlins and I can walk up, down, left, right, and all the diagonals, but not right and down.

The character just walks to the right. I'm sure if I keep trying games I'd find more with troubles moving in the down direction.

 

Any ideas what would cause this problem?

 

My other two work just fine. Unfortunately I don't have any other Joystick to try. I only have a CH stick.

[Caterpiggle]

Would be bad CH Joystick ? Don't have Apple Joystick ? Did you check special switches below of your CH Joystick ?

[Tanrunomad]

Have you tested the calibration of the joystick?

 

Enter into applesoft basic and run a program like this:

 

10 PRINT PDL(0)" "PDL(1):GOTO 10

 

Adjust your joystick until both pdl(0) and pdl(1) are at 127.

[Charlie_]

Shouldn't be the stick. My two other IIc computers works fine with it. Has to be something on the main board.

 

Sent from my Windows Phone 8X by HTC using Board Express

[Tempest]

Check the pins on the connector. One may be bent down.

[Charlie_]

Check the pins on the connector. One may be bent down.

 

Thats the thing though. In most games I can go down just fine. It is like the maximum analog value can not be reached.

[magnusfalkirk]

Check the joystick/mouse port on the troublesome //c and see if something might be stuck in one of the holes that the joystick pins don't go into. Failing that the problem is something on the motherboard.

[Charlie_]

Check the joystick/mouse port on the troublesome //c and see if something might be stuck in one of the holes that the joystick pins don't go into. Failing that the problem is something on the motherboard.

 

It is for sure something on the motherboard. I'd like to know what so I could replace whatever component is causing the issue.

 

Sent from my Windows Phone 8X by HTC using Board Express

[Arkhan]

Have you tested the calibration of the joystick?

 

Enter into applesoft basic and run a program like this:

 

10 PRINT PDL(0)" "PDL(1):GOTO 10

 

Adjust your joystick until both pdl(0) and pdl(1) are at 127.

 

 

holy crap, this is the greatest thing I have ever learned about an Apple II.

[BigO]

Thats the thing though. In most games I can go down just fine. It is like the maximum analog value can not be reached.

I don't have detailed knowledge about how the Apple II does it's A/D conversion but that's where I'd start troubleshooting based on the given information.

 

 

 

Block Diagram of A/D converter:

http://www.umich.edu/~archive/apple2/technotes/tn/aiie/TN.AIIE.006

 

Could be a bad cap.

[leech]

I am going to bring this thread back from the dead! 

So I got. CH Mach III hooked up to the Apple IIGS, and as I am trying to calibrate it, it doesn't exactly bounce back to 127 127.  Nit sure if there is some way to tighten that down or not.  But I also notice as I move it around to the edges, it should go 0 0 (upper left) to 0 255 (upper right) to 255 255 (Lower Right) and then 0 255 (lower left)  but the lower left somehow goes 'up' a huge amount to 0 135.  Which the computer should interpret as pretty much going left.

If I load up Donkey Kong, it just runs to the right.

Any ideas?

[Apple IIGS]

Interesting to come across this thread. I have three Apple IIc's (ROM 255, ROM 0 and ROM 3) and this afternoon I attempted to play Jumpman on all three machines with my Mach III joystick.

 

For some odd reason, the newest IIc (ROM 3) won't allow me to move the joystick in any direction except LEFT and DOWN. Yet on the other Apple IIc's, with the very same joystick, there is absolutely no problem. As an experiment, I tried swapping the Mach III with a QuickShot joystick. Now it moves in all four directions, but button-0 is ignored. Other games have no problems, just Jumpman on this particular IIc.

 

It's possible there's some undocumented hardware/firmware change on the ROM 3 (memory expandable IIc) that I'm not aware of, or my IIc has a hardware fault on the motherboard. I'll have to try Tumble Bugs and Gremlins and see what happens.

[Apple IIGS]

A little more investigation, it seems the issue is with my early beige Mach III joystick (brown and orange buttons, produced by Hayes) and that particular Memory Expandable Apple IIc (ROM 3).

 

I went into Applesoft BASIC and typed some lines to display the paddle coordinates on the fly. With the Hayes Mach III, if I move to the extreme corners, I get limited values like 228, 249. However, if I plug in my platinum CH Products Mach III, I get normal values like 255, 255.  Also, Jumpman works perfectly too! So the Hayes Mach III seems to be OK with the older Apple IIc's, but not my memory expandable IIc (ROM 3). Hmm, I wonder if it also has incompatibilities with some IIe's and IIGS's too.

 

ps - Ignore the issue I mentioned with the QuickShot joystick on the IIc, I accidentally toggled the "IBM/Apple" switch underneath which effectively disabled the button presses.

 

 

 

Edited March 4, 2020 by Apple IIGS

[Aunty Entity]

Don't forget there is also something about how the joystick will give spurious readings if reread to frequently.  You have a possibility it may be the way the software is handling it.  Something to do with the D2A conversion and the time required for it to stabilise to a reading.

 

[Keatah]

Wonder if it's those capacitors in the a/d circuit. Later II series machines had them, earlier ones did not.

 

[Apple IIGS]

Ok - At this point I'm pegging this on the earlier revision Mach III joystick itself (by 'Hayes Products', with Pat Pending).

 

Tonight I was using an original Apple IIc (ROM 0 firmware) with the older Hayes stick and the Datasoft game O'Riley's Mine. For no apparent reason, it only allows me to move LEFT. I cannot go in any other direction. Tried another joystick and it works fine. So it's not just the newer memory expandable Apple IIc! I suspect there are several other games that may have issues too.

 

They obviously fixed these issues with the newer version of the joystick. That one says CH Products and has a US patent number. The older model is still a very nice joystick, and one of my favorite designs, but you just have to keep in mind it may not be compatible with some games (either that, or maybe some component inside it has failed?). If the OP actually has a newer CH Products stick not labeled Hayes, then I'd lean towards a component inside the joystick that's failed on both his and mine.

 

 

Edited March 26, 2020 by Apple IIGS

[Tempest]

11 hours ago, Apple IIGS said:

Ok - At this point I'm pegging this on the earlier revision Mach III joystick itself (by 'Hayes Products', with Pat Pending).

I have a Mach III that says CH Products bust also says Pat Pending.  I currently have it plugged into my IIGS and I think it works, but I need to test it now.

[Apple IIGS]

On 3/26/2020 at 12:08 PM, Tempest said:

I have a Mach III that says CH Products bust also says Pat Pending.  I currently have it plugged into my IIGS and I think it works, but I need to test it now.

Well here's something add. I just tried using my platinum Mach III (CH Products, with Pat #) on the IIGS, and it won't let me move in ANY direction except up in Silpheed. The weird thing is I have no problems with any other games, just Silpheed. I did a search on Usenet, and found someone with a very similar issue here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/comp.sys.apple2/6GadOk3aTdw/2iH2n1gtAVEJ

 

I tried using my QuickShot on the GS, and Silpheed played just fine.

 

Not sure what it is with these Mach III joysticks. Are they inherently incompatible with certain games, or do they break down over time and causes these glitches? I'm leaning towards the former because of the post I just found where someone had the same issues with Silpheed as me!

 

One thing I'm noticing on my GS though, I've gone into Applesoft BASIC to run the calibration test. If I move to the far right (including right corners) I'm getting a maximum value of 247-248. Not 255! I tried adjusting the trim pots but it doesn't help. Now if I plug that SAME joystick into my Apple IIc (ROM 0), run the very same test, I get perfect values and it reads 255!

 

At any rate, I wouldn't blame it one one specific revision of the stick, just the Mach III in general.

Edited March 29, 2020 by Apple IIGS

[Tempest]

9 hours ago, Apple IIGS said:

Well here's something add. I just tried using my platinum Mach III (CH Products, with Pat #) on the IIGS, and it won't let me move in ANY direction except up in Silpheed. The weird thing is I have no problems with any other games, just Silpheed. I did a search on Usenet, and found someone with a very similar issue here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/comp.sys.apple2/6GadOk3aTdw/2iH2n1gtAVEJ

 

I tried using my QuickShot on the GS, and Silpheed played just fine.

 

Not sure what it is with these Mach III joysticks. Are they inherently incompatible with certain games, or do they break down over time and causes these glitches? I'm leaning towards the former because of the post I just found where someone had the same issues with Silpheed as me!

 

One thing I'm noticing on my GS though, I've gone into Applesoft BASIC to run the calibration test. If I move to the far right (including right corners) I'm getting a maximum value of 247-248. Not 255! I tried adjusting the trim pots but it doesn't help. Now if I plug that SAME joystick into my Apple IIc (ROM 0), run the very same test, I get perfect values and it reads 255!

 

At any rate, I wouldn't blame it one one specific revision of the stick, just the Mach III in general.

I'll fire up Slipheed today if I get a chance and give it a try.

[Gustavo Castenetto]

Hi everyone!

 

I’m having a somewhat related issue, but with my Apple IIgs... in my case is with an original Apple IIc joystick. When I connect it to my Apple IIc, it work fine. I’m able to play games like Skyfox or Ms Pac Man without a problem.

 

But then I tried to play the same games on my Apple IIgs, with the same joystick connected, and they will just go crazy on the axis movement... the buttons work fine, the problem is with the stick. I even tried with Test Drive II, and the joystick won’t work with that one either. 

 

I’ve already tried running a simple test script in Basic, and the values are all fine, ranging from 0 to 255 as I move the stick. 

 

I’ve set the IIgs to NORMAL speed in the Control Panel, and it’s the same. This seems to happen more with Skyfox than with MsPacMan, with Skyfox I can barely play the game (can’t even choose the game mode to begin with, because the options keep changing like crazy).

 

Any ideas? 

[Gustavo Castenetto]

15 hours ago, Gustavo Castenetto said:

Hi everyone!

 

I’m having a somewhat related issue, but with my Apple IIgs... in my case is with an original Apple IIc joystick. When I connect it to my Apple IIc, it work fine. I’m able to play games like Skyfox or Ms Pac Man without a problem.

 

But then I tried to play the same games on my Apple IIgs, with the same joystick connected, and they will just go crazy on the axis movement... the buttons work fine, the problem is with the stick. I even tried with Test Drive II, and the joystick won’t work with that one either. 

 

I’ve already tried running a simple test script in Basic, and the values are all fine, ranging from 0 to 255 as I move the stick. 

 

I’ve set the IIgs to NORMAL speed in the Control Panel, and it’s the same. This seems to happen more with Skyfox than with MsPacMan, with Skyfox I can barely play the game (can’t even choose the game mode to begin with, because the options keep changing like crazy).

 

Any ideas? 

Hi again!! 

 

Well, never mind!  I have been already able to make this work. I remembered that still had two cards installed in the IIgs that I'm not using at this time: a Grappler+ and a SCSI card. So... I wondered if there could be a conflict because of that. I've tried to check if there was something that I could change in the Control Panel, but couldn't find anything (or at least as far as I know, as I don't really know how the external game port is configured there).. So, I just removed the 2 cards, and everything started working fine. I was able to play Skyfox, Ms Pac Mac and Test Drive II with the Joystick just as expected. 

 

Hope this helps anyone with a similar problem

[Charlie_]

Wow, old thread.... 

 

This problem recently showed up again. This time was on my IIgs. Some games like Thexder and Silpheed would not go in the down direction using my CH stick. 

Thanks to the nice people over in the Apple IIgs Enthusiasts group on Facebook I fixed the problem. 

 

The problem is a weak, aging potentiometer. Soldering a 4.7nf capacitor between the pot connections does the trick. I recommend anyone having trouble with a CH stick not hitting the max values try this. Also, the Mecc Computer Inspector has a great utility to read joystick values. 

 

Hey look at that. Only took 9 years to find out!!