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When to spring for a Skunkboard?


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As a newb who barely got the C compiler up and compiling I'm wondering when a Skunkboard becomes a reasonable purchase.

 

I mean, at some point my progress in C may hit a major roadblock. Or, cart production could be a black art with no wizards to contract.

 

Is it reasonable to keep practicing my builds on Virtual Jaguar. THEN spring for a Jag CD.. THEN go for a Skunkboard if cart production can be obtained?

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You can't beat testing on real hardware. Emulation will get you a long way but you need to test on real hardware early and often before going with a CD version or having carts made, otherwise it could end up being an expensive "recall". If you can't find a Skunk for a good price (there is one in the AA marketplace for offers as I type) then get your jag BJL modded and use that. All you need then is an old PC to download your code from.

 

You might also want to find beta testers in PAL land so that you can make sure there are no issues with game/music speed or screen centring during play.

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You can't beat testing on real hardware. Emulation will get you a long way but you need to test on real hardware early and often before going with a CD version or having carts made, otherwise it could end up being an expensive "recall". If you can't find a Skunk for a good price (there is one in the AA marketplace for offers as I type) then get your jag BJL modded and use that. All you need then is an old PC to download your code from.

 

You might also want to find beta testers in PAL land so that you can make sure there are no issues with game/music speed or screen centring during play.

 

Hmmn. I was hoping RaptoR would have a setting for PAL/NTSC specifics. Or, at least separate function calls. No such dice?

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Hmmn. I was hoping RaptoR would have a setting for PAL/NTSC specifics. Or, at least separate function calls. No such dice?

 

You don't need to worry about PAL/NTSC with Raptor, but that's beside the point - please don't wait around for it to go public as it's not going to happen any time soon if ever. There's far too much work to do before it'll be in a state where it's ready to release to the public and CJ is not in a position to offer support for something on that kind of scale. To be done properly it needs thorough documentation and guides and someone there to hold your hand when you're in need of help - do it half arsed and you're only going to get bombarded with many more questions and pissed off people. It all seems like way too much work and hassle to me and for what? So a handful of people can have the opportunity to possibly maybe make something for Jaguar a little bit simpler than starting from scratch? If they're of sufficient understanding to make use of raptor they are already in possession of all they need to go do it for themselves. Raptor is what it is, CJ worked on it in a way that made what he did simpler/quicker/easier without keep reinventing the wheel, but it's simply not going to be pick-up-and-get -to-work easy to someone coming to it cold. Basically, it's not a magic trick for producing games lego-brick easy, it's just a black box for a lot of boring and tedious stuff to hide in.

 

And if you're looking for a C interface to it, well that's even less likely, groovybee fancies taking a look at that but by the very nature of what raptor is and how it works it doesn't lend itself to that. If he pulls it off then fair enough, there might be more reason to put it out there. But Raptor has been opened up to some devs already and TBH, nobody apart from CJ and Matmook has done anything of note with it for whatever reason. If there are people out there with the drive and determination to make Jaguar games, they don't need Raptor to help them do it. If there are people out there who already make Jaguar games and would benefit from having a lot of stuff out of their hair then show me where because I don't think anyone who already does Jaguar stuff would want to change the way they are already doing it. That's my take on it - people have their own way of working and thinking and like to do things their own way, that's half the challenge of making things for old machines. Raptor isn't going to be something they are going to benefit from.

 

If people want magic solutions and don't care about hows or whys, they want something a lot higher level than Raptor, they're not going to be up to writing games in assembler.

 

So that's my thinking. I don't think there's any point doing all that work with Raptor to make it into something that others can make use of, that time and effort is better spent by Matmook and CJ working with Raptor and Rmotion internally in order to produce games.

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Thanks for the response sh3-rg. Just to be clear I wasn't advocating a particular position. I know enough to know I know nothing. Which is why I value your advice so much :)

 

I'm starting to think not all homebrewers think out as far as I do - not that I'm a particularly smart person. When I asked the NES scene guys about cart production they assumed I has a new game developed and tested, ready to go. I was actually thinking at least a year or two ahead when I've mastered the dev tools and available libraries.

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Thanks for the response sh3-rg. Just to be clear I wasn't advocating a particular position. I know enough to know I know nothing. Which is why I value your advice so much :)

 

I know practically nothing, my opinion is pretty worthless, I just don't like the thought of people thinking raptor will come along and make things super easy for absolutely everyone, because that's not what it's about.

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I know practically nothing, my opinion is pretty worthless, I just don't like the thought of people thinking raptor will come along and make things super easy for absolutely everyone, because that's not what it's about.

 

Oh man, you mean it wont be the NES ROM Maker II?

 

 

I'M OUTTA HERE@!!!#*!$$ :P

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I have to comment on some of this, because it's definitely an artists take on things ;)

 

You don't need to worry about PAL/NTSC with Raptor, but that's beside the point - please don't wait around for it to go public as it's not going to happen any time soon if ever. There's far too much work to do before it'll be in a state where it's ready to release to the public and CJ is not in a position to offer support for something on that kind of scale. To be done properly it needs thorough documentation and guides and someone there to hold your hand when you're in need of help - do it half arsed and you're only going to get bombarded with many more questions and pissed off people.

 

PAL/NTSC is automagic - you can basically forget about it (and all the other video init/maintenance crap the Jaguar requires) - RAPTOR is, itself, for my/matmook's use only about 99% complete and stable. It's a solid, useful and fairly complete swiss army knife of code for those who know how to call it and use it. For external use, I'd say it's about 75-85% complete - there are a few 'not intuitive' calls left that need a better API to a higher level left to write.

 

However, as sh3 said above, I am currently not in a position to take this any further - I'd like to, and I plan to come back to it at some point. But right now, the real world and life simply don't give me the time. I'd rather spend what time I have making games. What needs to be done here is thorough and complete documentation, documentation I simply do not have the time to create at the moment. The example code to accompany this documentation is already written. Basically, take any of our recent games, and add comments.

 

It all seems like way too much work and hassle to me and for what? So a handful of people can have the opportunity to possibly maybe make something for Jaguar a little bit simpler than starting from scratch? If they're of sufficient understanding to make use of raptor they are already in possession of all they need to go do it for themselves. Raptor is what it is, CJ worked on it in a way that made what he did simpler/quicker/easier without keep reinventing the wheel, but it's simply not going to be pick-up-and-get -to-work easy to someone coming to it cold. Basically, it's not a magic trick for producing games lego-brick easy, it's just a black box for a lot of boring and tedious stuff to hide in.

 

Wind back the clock a few years. Change scenes to the ST. What felt like everybody screaming for a WHDLoad-a-like solution for the ST to make games hard disk installable was the situation. Months were spent coding ULS3.0, making it stable, making it opensource, keeping it updated. And how many people picked it up and used it afterwards? One. And that person had access to the code long before we went public with it, and also made his own version of it himself. People didn't want WHDload for the ST, they wanted games patched for the ST. Do it themselves? Too much work. I came away from that project proud of what we'd achieved, but utterly demotivated by the lack of uptake, especially considering the support and help Welp was getting on the Amiga side. I'd rather not put all my time and effort into RAPTOR only to have that happen again, because it'll mean the Jaguar gets put away, and I'll never work on it again.

 

And if you're looking for a C interface to it, well that's even less likely, groovybee fancies taking a look at that but by the very nature of what raptor is and how it works it doesn't lend itself to that. If he pulls it off then fair enough, there might be more reason to put it out there.

 

I've said all along that HLL's are 'not my bag' so I can't comment on this, how much work it involves, or the time frames involved. If/when GB works on this, he will have my unconditional support. That's the best I can offer.

 

[edit]

However, saying all that, if anyone out there has the drive and determination to use this to actually make something, and can demonstrate prior knowledge in a related area, and has basic 68000 skills, then please contact us and we'll consider extending the current beta-test team. What I don't want is people having copies of the code base on CD, in a case on their shelf, being about as useful as 'Jaguar Extremist Pack #99' and being used as a trophy in a collection.

Edited by CyranoJ
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I dunno about current coding styles. When I was involved in custom database applications all our libraries had comments that could be parsed into a simple document that outlined function use, parameters ,etc..

 

I think such a document would be all that's needed initially. That and a basic project template and equivalent "Hello World" example. Maybe the source to Degz could be both.

 

The one way to guarantee a project will have zero impact is to not release it. The only way to accomplish something is to do it. In this case, RaptorR multiplies those who can do by each user its made available to.

 

UPDATE: By the way, I'm not advocating an early release. I'm not even particularly interested in using it immediately myself. I've just followed the RaptoR web site, seen the YouTube videos and played Degz. What the community is creating for Jaguar dev is inspiring. I'm feeling a bit of negativity and that confuses me. You guys are awesome!

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I dunno about current coding styles. When I was involved in custom database applications all our libraries had comments that could be parsed into a simple document that outlined function use, parameters ,etc..

 

I think such a document would be all that's needed initially. That and a basic project template and equivalent "Hello World" example. Maybe the source to Degz could be both.

 

The one way to guarantee a project will have zero impact is to not release it. The only way to accomplish something is to do it. In this case, RaptorR multiplies those who can do by each user its made available to.

 

UPDATE: By the way, I'm not advocating an early release. I'm not even particularly interested in using it immediately myself. I've just followed the RaptoR web site, seen the YouTube videos and played Degz. What the community is creating for Jaguar dev is inspiring. I'm feeling a bit of negativity and that confuses me. You guys are awesome!

 

You seem like a real smart guy. I cant imagine you having much trouble really getting a handle on C if you kept at it a bit.

 

 

Wind back the clock a few years. Change scenes to the ST. What felt like everybody screaming for a WHDLoad-a-like solution for the ST to make games hard disk installable was the situation. Months were spent coding ULS3.0, making it stable, making it opensource, keeping it updated. And how many people picked it up and used it afterwards? One. And that person had access to the code long before we went public with it, and also made his own version of it himself. People didn't want WHDload for the ST, they wanted games patched for the ST. Do it themselves? Too much work. I came away from that project proud of what we'd achieved, but utterly demotivated by the lack of uptake, especially considering the support and help Welp was getting on the Amiga side. I'd rather not put all my time and effort into RAPTOR only to have that happen again, because it'll mean the Jaguar gets put away, and I'll never work on it again.

 

I agree with your caution here. Through the years we've had people sceaming for BASIC for the Jag. I think if a basic was done those who are not even attempting anything with whats there for the Jag now would not make any attempt with a BASIC if they had it or what not.

Edited by JagChris
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Through the years we've had people sceaming for BASIC for the Jag. I think if a basic was done those who are not even attempting anything with whats there for the Jag now would not make any attempt with a BASIC if they had it or what not.

 

Hey, it's my job to be the miserable grumpy old cynic around here. I'd love to see some of your code with that kind of logic ;-)

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I don't see anyone squaking for a BASIC compiler but me. I'm insane enough to annoy anyone easily. I think the difference between a newb and a BASIC enthusiast is basically nil. What I at least understand is that you need a mature, community driven library for sound, graphics and input before anyone even THINK about coding a BASIC compiler. Thus my excitement over RaptoR.

 

Well, let me rephrase that. RaptoR allows games to be made without reinventing the wheel. A BASIC enthusiast like ME would be the one to take it into RAD development and BASIC land.

 

Is there anything that compares to RaptoR for C development? Something one could use in the interim?

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I don't see anyone squaking for a BASIC compiler but me. I'm insane enough to annoy anyone easily. I think the difference between a newb and a BASIC enthusiast is basically nil. What I at least understand is that you need a mature, community driven library for sound, graphics and input before anyone even THINK about coding a BASIC compiler. Thus my excitement over RaptoR.

 

Well, let me rephrase that. RaptoR allows games to be made without reinventing the wheel. A BASIC enthusiast like ME would be the one to take it into RAD development and BASIC land.

 

Is there anything that compares to RaptoR for C development? Something one could use in the interim?

 

Through the years there have been tons of people and the comment was not really directed at you.

Edited by JagChris
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Through the years we've had people sceaming for BASIC for the Jag. I think if a basic was done those who are not even attempting anything with whats there for the Jag now would not make any attempt with a BASIC if they had it or what not.

 

You lost me here, too. Can we get some translators in here for everyone's sake ;)

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You lost me here, too. Can we get some translators in here for everyone's sake ;)

 

I believe he means that despite clammering for BASIC, if BASIC was indeed made available, it wouldn't get used. The idea is that if they won't attempt anything with C/ASM, they won't attempt anything with BASIC either.

 

There is much truth in that, but I think we'd se a FEW things. Make it like batari and you'd probably get one or two folks trying it. Make the BASIC so it generated 68000 code, while the kernel was default GPU/DSP code, then add some ability to add native GPU/DSP code much like you can add ARM code to A2600 projects for that cart with ARM coprocessor.

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Just my couple of pence (been down the back of the sofa again saving up the lint)

 

I don't understand what the big hoohar around C for the jag is anyway. I like C, I have used it and can mostly abuse it into doing what I want, but for the Jag.. It may make some sense for quickly prototyping some complex algorithms, but ultimately, as a beginner, shouldn't people be going for as simple as possible? C has a lot more commands, data types and chicanery than ASM. ASM has some how picked up this uber elite hardcore stigma that I don't think is really that true. Especially not the 68K!

 

I'd like to hope that perhaps some people could give ASM a try, the link to Easy68K I posted is a really quick simple way of playing with a full 68K system, practicing the program logic and commands, testing the code with actual visibility of what's going on at each line. It's honestly not that hard to pick up, pretty sure there are enough people on here with the experience to be able to help with the odd question (not a complete hand holding keypress by keypress guide, those exist anyway). You can do an aweful lot with just the 68K on the Jag..

 

If you can get your head around the 68K once you are comfortable with it, the RISC stuff isn't that difficult to pick up either, it's just different.

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I learned 68K assembly on the Amiga... virtually everything I did on the Amiga was 100% assembly. It's not really so much HARDER as it is MORE work. Things you do with one or two commands/structures in C or other higher-level languages can take dozens or hundreds of assembly instructions. At least the Amiga was designed around calling the OS from assembly - you actually needed special stubs to call the OS from C... pop the args off the stack into the correct registers and then call the library vector.

 

Anywho, the 68000 is a really nice chip to program in assembly on. If you're gonna learn assembly, starting with the 68000 is much better than say the x86.

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What language you choose to program in is determined by your own personal skill set, experience and interests as well as what is currently available for your machine of choice. Its always best to choose the right tool for the job in my opinion. Sure, compiled BASIC and "C" are never going to match the raw speed of pure 68K or GPU assembler but for a great many games they are "good enough". For other games just profiling your code and seeing where CPU time is spent in order to find a hit list of "slow" functions is a good start. Those routines can then be sped up with different algorithm and data structure changes. Then when you've exhausted different algorithms you can drop into 68K or offload it to the GPU. And finally... some games will need to be written in assembler just to ring every ounce out of the machine.

 

If you can't come up with a different approach to solving your own problems or you can't explain what you want to achieve to somebody else then that is where you'll get bogged down and more than likely give up in my experience.

 

At the end of the day there is no right way to get your game done. If it works how you want it to and its playable and fun then say "Job done!", pat yourself on the back, pick another project and move on.

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