Hive multi-cart - It's alive!

[catsfolly]

Okay, so I'm a little confused.

 

Back in August you said:

There will be no DRM on my multi-cart. If I put out out game ROMs they'll be completely free of charge. I'm not the least bit interested in gouging collectors for a digital copy.

So even though you have no announced intention to release ROMS, if you DID release them they would be completely free (and DRM free)...

 

But later you said:

My Bee2/Bee3 also have features that JLP cannot support. My games are already using the RAM, flash and accelerated hardware features available in the BeeX BIOS.

 

So, even though your games have no DRM, it sounds like if they were theoretically released on ROM, they would only run on your hardware.

 

Then, talking about the Hive, you said:

 

How much am I asking for these bad boys when they go on general sale? A gougetastic $75 + P&P for the basic version. I don't have a price for the deluxe version, which will include a pre-loaded microSD card yet. The microSD card will most likely contain some of my utilities and game demos.

So even though you would never charge for a ROM version, it costs more money to get the version with the demo ROMs??? And because there are two versions of the Hive, some collectors will feel compelled to buy them both?

[+Tarzilla]

http://www.intellivisionrevolution.com/ltoflash

 

 

The info from this page was taken directly from LTO. "limited DRM"

 

 

 

What I am getting at is, that to most people (i think), just the use of the word "DRM" brings up negative thoughts...........Not the fact that LTO uses DRM. I dont really care if they use DRM. I buy CIB copies anyway. In the long run, its probably not a big deal.

 

But all that fiasco surrounding the XBOX ONE and DRM is the reason I wont buy the Xbone.

 

Still planning on purchasing the LTO Flash, if im not banned! LOL

 

For what I understand, DRM is an inaccurately used term in this case, rather it is a ROM-to-LTO Flash! Device ID locking scheme.

As a programmer, if I choose to read an address on the LTO Flash! that contains the unique ID and I bother to unique tag each ROM I sell with the customer provided LTO ID then I can make a ROM that is only playable on that LTO for that customer and can't be easily shared by the average person

 

They have said they will repair failed LTO Flash! devices with the same id, but that is a different issue.

Again, it is a programmer optional feature, not mandatory.

[Rev]

As a gesture of good will, and to move the convo past the DRM. Here is a new pic for us to discuss.

 

[+cmart604]

Aww man. Why am I always the bottom?

[Rev]

Aww man. Why am I always the bottom?

 

Once a bottom, always a bottom. That's the way its been for centuries. Who can argue with history?

[+SoulBuster]

The info from this page was taken directly from LTO. "limited DRM"

 

Still planning on purchasing the LTO Flash, if im not banned! LOL

I actually do not remember when DRM came up about the LTO flash. I read the thread and DRM is an incorrect usage when compared to LTO Flash. It was in its infancy at the time.

 

No you are not banned, You can buy 12 if you want to.

 

Just as a side note, in the Jaguar scene the Skunkboard (flash cart) has DRM and how many active developers use it? None! The active developers are putting stuff out as free ROMs as well as making CD and cart releases. Its odd, that releasing a free ROM doesn't actually impact the sales of CDs or carts because some people have claimed that piracy is rampant in the jag scene for years . Alongside some DRM the Skunkboard also has a limited "blacklist" of games it won't run too .

I think you are correct on the point of it impacting sales, but I think you may be missing the point of being able to lock a digital sale to a piece of hardware. The fact is that there are developers that make ROMs available for free. I am a great proponent for that. But on the other side, there are copyright holders that need to feel safe. I wonder how many of those active developers that are releasing free ROMs have a licensing issue? The capability of making copyright holders feel safe is a plus in anyone's arena.

 

For what I understand, DRM is an inaccurately used term in this case, rather it is a ROM-to-LTO Flash! Device ID locking scheme.

As a programmer, if I choose to read an address on the LTO Flash! that contains the unique ID and I bother to unique tag each ROM I sell with the customer provided LTO ID then I can make a ROM that is only playable on that LTO for that customer and can't be easily shared by the average person

 

They have said they will repair failed LTO Flash! devices with the same id, but that is a different issue.

Again, it is a programmer optional feature, not mandatory.

You re correct!!!!!

 

As a gesture of good will, and to move the convo past the DRM. Here is a new pic for us to discuss.

 

drm sucks.jpg

LOL!!!!

[Rev]

For what I understand, DRM is an inaccurately used term in this case, rather it is a ROM-to-LTO Flash! Device ID locking scheme.

As a programmer, if I choose to read an address on the LTO Flash! that contains the unique ID and I bother to unique tag each ROM I sell with the customer provided LTO ID then I can make a ROM that is only playable on that LTO for that customer and can't be easily shared by the average person

 

They have said they will repair failed LTO Flash! devices with the same id, but that is a different issue.

Again, it is a programmer optional feature, not mandatory.

 

 

Perhaps you are correct, maybe the DRM term never should of been used or applied for LTO. Thats the point I was trying to make.

 

How many people plan on purchasing ROMS anyway?

 

I only bought the DK roms to help out Carl. I dont normally buy roms and have no plans on buying roms. If a new intv game comes out as a rom exclusive, ill skip it. But thats just me.

[GroovyBee]

Emphasis mine :-

Back in August you said:

So even though you have no announced intention to release ROMS, if you DID release them they would be completely free (and DRM free)...

Erm.... "No announced intention to release ROMS"? Back in February 2013 I said :-

 

I'm aiming to get a taster ROM out towards the end of next week. I'll release the final ROM at some point but its not likely to be for a while.

So it was always the plan to give out free ROMs.

 

So, even though your games have no DRM, it sounds like if they were theoretically released on ROM, they would only run on your hardware.

My games are designed to take advantage of the features found on Bee2/Bee3 PCBs. I have no intention of making dual releases of free ROMs to support other platforms. If you can't play something that was given to you for free, on your non compatible device/emulator thats not really my problem is it .

 

So even though you would never charge for a ROM version, it costs more money to get the version with the demo ROMs??? And because there are two versions of the Hive, some collectors will feel compelled to buy them both?

The deluxe version includes a microSD card (thats the additional physical cost). Why would a collector buy 2 multi-carts just to get a standard off the shelf microSD card? Since I need to test the complete system (multi-cart and microSD card) before it ships I need to put something on the microSD card. To avoid IP related issues the "something" will be stuff I've created.

[+SoulBuster]

I plan on buying the entire Elektronite catalog twice, as I will be buying 2 LTO flash Carts to play them on. And I will also be making available the Manual and overlay kits for each one. This will keep you CIB sealed copies pristine.

[llioncourt]

if there are units left I'd like one too.

[1980gamer]

I think it is SO FUNNY that this tension between the up coming multi-carts exists.... JLP (Picard) vs HIVE (Borg)

 

Can he: bring unity to the intellivision galaxy community?

 

Resistance is futile...

I want them both!

 

So, add me to the Pre-release lottery please.

 

1980gamer

[catsfolly]

Emphasis mine :-

 

Erm.... "No announced intention to release ROMS"? Back in February 2013 I said :-

 

I'll release the final ROM at some point but its not likely to be for a while.

 

So it was always the plan to give out free ROMs.

 

My games are designed to take advantage of the features found on Bee2/Bee3 PCBs. I have no intention of making dual releases of free ROMs to support other platforms. If you can't play something that was given to you for free, on your non compatible device/emulator thats not really my problem is it .

 

 

The deluxe version includes a microSD card (thats the additional physical cost). Why would a collector buy 2 multi-carts just to get a standard off the shelf microSD card? Since I need to test the complete system (multi-cart and microSD card) before it ships I need to put something on the microSD card. To avoid IP related issues the "something" will be stuff I've created.

Oops, looks you did announce your intention to distribute ROMS. It was so long ago I guess I just forgot about it. (But you didn't say "free" at that time...)

 

"Here's your 100 percent free game program rom image. Enjoy it!"

"Oh, you actually want to play the game? In that case you need to buy this $75 board only available from me!"

"What, you don't want to buy the board? Hey, you got the game image totally for free. No charge! No DRM! What are you complaining about?"

 

"Why would a collector buy 2 multi-carts just to get a standard off the shelf microSD card?" Why does anybody do anything?

Some people buy the same identical game because it comes in different boxes or has different color labels.

If the standard version and deluxe version come in different boxes, some people will want to buy them both....

Edited October 11, 2014 by catsfolly

[freewheel]

"What, you don't want to buy the board? Hey, you got the game image totally for free. No charge! No DRM! What are you complaining about?"

 

Requiring a specific TYPE of hardware to run code isn't DRM. Otherwise every single piece of code ever released is DRM'd, by definition.

 

DRM is about preventing copying (the official, "positive" side of it) and about causing problems for customers running code they've already paid for (the unofficial, "negative" side of it). It's almost always entirely useless for the former, which leads it to be nothing but the latter. Like in the case of INTV ROMs, for instance - I can't see it being very difficult, in a community of game hackers and whatnot, for someone to find the one line of code in a 8 or 16KB ROM to disable But it does mean that legit paying customers face all sorts of nightmares in the future, not the least of which being what happens when these companies go out of business and there's no one left to "unlock" their ROM.

 

Can you imagine if all of our INTV games from the 80s were DRM'd to one console? Mattel Electronics would have been around for exactly how long to help out with this? This entire community would not exist today. This is why I can't fathom anyone here defending the concept of DRM.

Edited October 11, 2014 by freeweed

[+DZ-Jay]

Oops, looks you did announce your intention to distribute ROMS. It was so long ago I guess I just forgot about it. (But you didn't say "free" at that time...)

 

"Here's your 100 percent free game program rom image. Enjoy it!"

"Oh, you actually want to play the game? In that case you need to buy this $75 board only available from me!"

"What, you don't want to buy the board? Hey, you got the game image totally for free. No charge! No DRM! What are you complaining about?"

 

"Why would a collector buy 2 multi-carts just to get a standard off the shelf microSD card?" Why does anybody do anything?

Some people buy the same identical game because it comes in different boxes or has different color labels.

If the standard version and deluxe version come in different boxes, some people will want to buy them both....

Hold on, are you seriously complaining about a new flash-cart offering hardware-accelerated features that games can take advantage of?

 

I must have missed your righteous indignation on the LTO Flash thread, when they announced the the exact same thing.

[1980gamer]

"Oh, you actually want to play the game? In that case you need to buy this $75 board only available from me!"

 

I guess ALL emulators will never be updated again.... DARN

 

I am not taking sides. I actually wish both cart producers would collaborate so as to make all roms work on either device.

I know my cc3 most likely will not be updated or even if it is possible to add these new features.

 

Now, I am not saying I want them to be the same device, that cripples innovation.

However, both carts offer additional ram. Can one rom detect the cart and figure out how the additional ram should be accessed?

Or with JPL, the rom works with the ECS plugged in, using the HIVE, it does not require the ESC unless the keyboard is required.

 

One cart may save high scores, the other doesn't, but supports the rom functioning without saving the high score.

 

These are just examples, not holding back new features in either device, but not breaking compatibility when advanced features are used.

 

Granted, the compiler layer is were these cross compatibility decisions should most likely be handled... 2 generated roms when advanced features are used.

 

With all of this said, the flashback 2 would most likely NOT use any advanced features. My goal would be to use 100% base intellivision compatibility anyway.

 

Pushing old technologies to the limits is part of the fun anyway. Extra ram is always welcome! Even the original CHESS had 2k of additional ram.

[+DZ-Jay]

"Oh, you actually want to play the game? In that case you need to buy this $75 board only available from me!"

 

I guess ALL emulators will never be updated again.... DARN

 

I am not taking sides. I actually wish both cart producers would collaborate so as to make all roms work on either device.

I know my cc3 most likely will not be updated or even if it is possible to add these new features.

 

Now, I am not saying I want them to be the same device, that cripples innovation.

However, both carts offer additional ram. Can one rom detect the cart and figure out how the additional ram should be accessed?

Or with JPL, the rom works with the ECS plugged in, using the HIVE, it does not require the ESC unless the keyboard is required.

 

One cart may save high scores, the other doesn't, but supports the rom functioning without saving the high score.

 

These are just examples, not holding back new features in either device, but not breaking compatibility when advanced features are used.

 

Granted, the compiler layer is were these cross compatibility decisions should most likely be handled... 2 generated roms when advanced features are used.

 

With all of this said, the flashback 2 would most likely NOT use any advanced features. My goal would be to use 100% base intellivision compatibility anyway.

 

Pushing old technologies to the limits is part of the fun anyway. Extra ram is always welcome! Even the original CHESS had 2k of additional ram.

I envisage most future games doing something similar, especially as our development tools and frameworks mature to support them.

 

However, if a programmer chooses one single implementation, that's his prerogative. Eventually the community will decide what it wants to support and how it will do so.

 

-dZ.

[freewheel]

With all of this said, the flashback 2 would most likely NOT use any advanced features. My goal would be to use 100% base intellivision compatibility anyway.

 

 

Same here. To me the entire point of programming games for the INTV is to program games for the INTV. Not some add-on, hacked-up, modified INTV. I realize it might just be small things like extra RAM etc, but... if I can't put a game into a standard cart shell, and sell it for a reasonable price as a stand-alone game, then to me that's not why we're doing this.

 

I remember the homebrew scenes on other platforms struggling with this as well, in earlier times. Emulation added a LOT of potential to make some pretty cool games for the 2600, NES, etc, that simply weren't possible on the original hardware - but there comes a point when you're not really writing games for the original platform anymore.

 

To each their own though, and I certainly wouldn't be one to piss all over someone else's accomplishment. It's just not my cup of tea.

[+DZ-Jay]

Same here. To me the entire point of programming games for the INTV is to program games for the INTV. Not some add-on, hacked-up, modified INTV. I realize it might just be small things like extra RAM etc, but... if I can't put a game into a standard cart shell, and sell it for a reasonable price as a stand-alone game, then to me that's not why we're doing this.

 

I remember the homebrew scenes on other platforms struggling with this as well, in earlier times. Emulation added a LOT of potential to make some pretty cool games for the 2600, NES, etc, that simply weren't possible on the original hardware - but there comes a point when you're not really writing games for the original platform anymore.

 

To each their own though, and I certainly wouldn't be one to piss all over someone else's accomplishment. It's just not my cup of tea.

I respect that, and I used to feel the same. Until the day when my game exhausted 16K ROM and I found myself faced with the choice of compromising my vision, exerting significant effort in figuring out how to compress or reduce space usage, or just code and draw animation frames with free abandon, because the LTO PCB that I chose for publication supported up to 42K of ROM.

 

I still think Christmas Carol was a worthwhile and challenging effort, and the results speak for themselves.

 

I didn't take advantage of extra memory then, but I probably will in the future. I'm in this for the creative expression and the thrill of designing games others enjoy, not to fight with arcane technology. However, I do appreciate that others are in this for the technological challenge. To each his own.

 

dZ.

[catsfolly]

Hold on, are you seriously complaining about a new flash-cart offering hardware-accelerated features that games can take advantage of?

 

I must have missed your righteous indignation on the LTO Flash thread, when they announced the the exact same thing.

The thing that bugged me was it seemed to me that Groovy Bee was boasting about the free ROM images that he may someday release, but then he turned around and said that these ROM images would only work on his hardware. If I have to buy new hardware to use something, it doesn't seem free to me.

 

No one on the LTO thread was boasting about free ROM images, as far as I can remember (some of these threads are really long). I think some people there wanted to sell rom images.

 

I have no problem with flash-carts with hardware-accelerated features.

 

Hopefully these features will be fully documented, and emulator writers can support them in their emulators, and then I'll have nothing to complain about! (But I'll probably find something anyway...)

 

Catsfolly

[freewheel]

I didn't take advantage of extra memory then, but I probably will in the future. I'm in this for the creative expression and the thrill of designing games others enjoy, not to fight with arcane technology. However, I do appreciate that others are in this for the technological challenge. To each his own.

 

 

Absolutely agreed. I started messing around with homebrew so that I could feel just what it was like to try to develop commercial software with horrendous restrictions. And I'm rapidly developing even MORE respect for programmers of the early 80s with each new thing I struggle to do.

 

And yet I'm already starting to think about just how far someone could push the Intellivoice, given today's cheap ROM space. I'm kinda surprised more INTV homebrew doesn't use the Voice as it is, but maybe people are trying to stick to stock hardware compatibility and smaller ROMs.

[freewheel]

The thing that bugged me was it seemed to me that Groovy Bee was boasting about the free ROM images that he may someday release, but then he turned around and said that these ROM images would only work on his hardware. If I have to buy new hardware to use something, it doesn't seem free to me.

 

"Free as in beer" and "free as in speech" are two very different things. Although they do often coincide.

 

Another way of looking at things: reducto ad absurdum says that in order to play any ROM, I need to at least buy a PC that can run an emulator, so technically no ROM can ever be described as "free".

[Rev]

The thing that bugged me was it seemed to me that Groovy Bee was boasting about the free ROM images that he may someday release, but then he turned around and said that these ROM images would only work on his hardware. If I have to buy new hardware to use something, it doesn't seem free to me.

 

No one on the LTO thread was boasting about free ROM images, as far as I can remember (some of these threads are really long). I think some people there wanted to sell rom images.

 

I have no problem with flash-carts with hardware-accelerated features.

 

Hopefully these features will be fully documented, and emulator writers can support them in their emulators, and then I'll have nothing to complain about! (But I'll probably find something anyway...)

 

Catsfolly

Maybe a better arguement is not which roms will work on what multicart, but instead, free roms versus paid for roms. Alot of developers give roms away for free during development, or after CIB copies are sold. And some want to continue selling game eternally in rom form. Not saying which method is right or wrong. Just pointing it out. Of course, im sure a licensed game rom can not be given out for free.....

[yell0w_lantern]

 

 

Perhaps you are correct, maybe the DRM term never should of been used or applied for LTO. Thats the point I was trying to make.

 

How many people plan on purchasing ROMS anyway?

 

I only bought the DK roms to help out Carl. I dont normally buy roms and have no plans on buying roms. If a new intv game comes out as a rom exclusive, ill skip it. But thats just me.

 

I'm at the other end. I have no interest in buying carts but would gladly pay $15 give-or-take for a ROM.

HOWEVER, last time Elektronite replied to one of my posts, it felt very condescending. I still feel quite insulted and am wrestling with whether I am willing to buy anything from him in the future.

[+JasonlikesINTV]

I'm a big fan of "free ROM with purchase of CIB game" or reasonably priced (< or = $15) for ROM only purchase.

[+Rick Reynolds]

Yeah, I've mentioned this kind of thing on the podcast - I really want some way to play all my games in emulation because that seems pretty future-proof. I understand the concerns with rights-holders and such, and I'm sure I'll support the LTO-specific ROM sales should that come about. But I think I'm crazy enough to want to play these games in 10 or 20 years. I hope that emulation and/or future hardware will be able to support games I'm purchasing now.